Best health system designs

[hiver]

I need some examples of various health systems made through the years.

The ol HP points idea is too abstracted and too limiting for my project, especially since it will not be combat focused, non-lethal options in combat will be very strong and of course targeting different body parts will be enabled. Including the groin.

So i guess i need something more diverse and specific then just HP, but not too complicated and convoluted.

Additionally, you wont be able to heal by resting, resting will be limited to once per 24 hours and healing items will be hard to get.


I faintly remember some cRPG game... i think it was made by some german studio, where ... critical injuries and their status effects would remain although you could heal just the superficial HP points, until you could get a more serious healing.
But for the life of me i cant remember anything else about that game except it was fantasy and had a semi-isometric view.


What are the best examples of such systems you can think of that you actually played and had some experience with?

 

[Snorkack]

you might mean drakensang, which follow the rules of the dark eye p&p. Health is simulated via HP as usual, but if a hit causes more damage than half your constitution, it causes a wound in addition to the normal hp loss, which inflicts attribute debuffs and can onle be healed via rest or strong healing skill/spell.

NEO Scavenger might be worth looking at. Health system has more depth than just hitpoints.

not an rpg but amazing system: bushido blade for psx

 

[Eirikur]

One thing that's always irked me is that player characters and enemies alike tend to fight at their optimal capacity whether their health is at 100% or 1%. What do you think are the best alternatives to this - can anyone think of any good examples?

 

[Old Hans]

I kind of vaguely remember the old MUD Gemstone III using a system similar to Rolemaster. There was also that early 90s origin RPG that no one remembers that had a pretty deadly combat system.

I cant really recall any rpg where im like 5 levels below ground, party members with broken legs and missing arms, and no way to get out. I think the more complicated wound systems like rolemaster don't really translate to computer rpgs that well. Like the Drakanseng games felt really clunky and tedious.

 

[GlutenBurger]

One thing that's always irked me is that player characters and enemies alike tend to fight at their optimal capacity whether their health is at 100% or 1%. What do you think are the best alternatives to this - can anyone think of any good examples?

Limb damage, like in Fallout or Arcanum, is the only alternative I can think of seeing. It's still not really considering your overall health, just whether certain body parts have exceeded a certain threshold of damage, so maybe that's not quite what you're thinking of.

 

[sser]

One of the best health systems I've ever seen was in Call of Ctulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. Every sort of injury affected you in some way. An accumulation of injuries had you limping on crackling bones, unable to aim with a busted up hand, and huffing and puffing for air as you ran out of breath from poisons. It was very immersive while also being a part of the gameplay itself. Another was an RTS game whose name I always forget, but in it you could build robots out of individual pieces, and damage was not just a means of injuries to specific spots of an enemy, but a means to acquiring new parts. That was pretty cool. Ninja Gaiden II implemented a great limb-loss system, but it was about enemies, not you. RPGs are pretty lacking in health systems aside from the usual HP bloat. Fallout had the right idea with the aiming, but the battles were so terse and heavily leaning on "who shoots first, wins", that everybody just went for the head anyway. Other games like Silent Storm used the same system, but the issue is that you always end up being accurate enough to not need to take anything but head/chest shots. Furthermore, to really take advantage of limb-specific damage, characters need to be durable enough to make it worth your while. Obviously, humans aren't really that durable on the pointy-end of a bullet's travels. One of the failures of Wasteland 2 was making battles with giant HP-bloat, and yet not utilizing it. HP should be considered a source of 'mana', something you find ways to work around, not something put there to absorb player time.

IMO, more games need these things:

- Area-specific damage. Only works if the battles are lengthy enough.
- Stamina maintenance. When I wrestled, stamina maintenance was pretty much the thing that decided if you'd win or not. You can see that today in MMA or boxing matches.
- Armor and weapon loss. Force players to take more into consideration - have backup weapons, have armor degrade as a fight wears on, etc.
- Armor and weapon-specific negatives/bonuses. (Crushing, slashing, etc., but also that something like plate armor would be impervious to a slashing sword while too cumbersome to dodge a hammer or mace. The Game of Thrones RPG toyed with this system.)
- Mental health. Morale, sound thinking, etc. It's kind of a different topic, but I rarely see 'morale' in RPGs aside from fear spells and the like.

 

[pippin]

you might mean drakensang, which follow the rules of the dark eye p&p. Health is simulated via HP as usual, but if a hit causes more damage than half your constitution, it causes a wound in addition to the normal hp loss, which inflicts attribute debuffs and can onle be healed via rest or strong healing skill/spell.

I second this. Drakensang might not be the best rpg out there, but it had many p&p-like details which proved interesting to me.

 

[Telengard]

One thing that's always irked me is that player characters and enemies alike tend to fight at their optimal capacity whether their health is at 100% or 1%. What do you think are the best alternatives to this - can anyone think of any good examples?

As long as you use only a single numerical source to measure heath, there are no good alternatives. Because applying any active penalty to fighting prowess from wounds hands a major advantage to lightning quick characters, who can then step in and wound the enemy and so gain immediate advantage and thus win the combat in the first round. And a game must, first and foremost, be a game. Only things you can do is either move away from the idea of people being hit and still fighting or move away from the idea of people having only one source of health.

I need some examples of various health systems made through the years.

The ol HP points idea is too abstracted and too limiting for my project, especially since it will not be combat focused, non-lethal options in combat will be very strong and of course targeting different body parts will be enabled. Including the groin.

So i guess i need something more diverse and specific then just HP, but not too complicated and convoluted.

Additionally, you wont be able to heal by resting, resting will be limited to once per 24 hours and healing items will be hard to get.


I faintly remember some cRPG game... i think it was made by some german studio, where ... critical injuries and their status effects would remain although you could heal just the superficial HP points, until you could get a more serious healing.
But for the life of me i cant remember anything else about that game except it was fantasy and had a semi-isometric view.


What are the best examples of such systems you can think of that you actually played and had some experience with?

In addition to the Dark Eye game system (Drakensang, etc etc), Rune Quest used a body hit location, as well as a major set of critical hit and fumble tables. Actually it's kinda famous for its critical fumble table, where you can cut off your own arm, your friend's head, and your other friend's leg - all in one swing.

Some other relatively common options out there:

Health & Stamina
Ablative guard instead of ablative hp
Different damage types affecting the body differently, so fire is slower to heal from than a punch damage
No hp or anything like it, all wounds subtract directly from all skill use, so 10 damage means -10 to all skill rolls, can keep going until have so many negatives can't do anything
Either Fine, Wounded, Badly Wounded, or Dead. Take a hit, make a save, and the result determines whether wounded and how badly.

 

[hiver]

Yeah i think it was Drakensang. The name rings a bell. I liked that system. It wasnt complicated but it was much better then just stupid HP.



How about this (very rough and crude example) then:


- say your general overall health drops bellow 10 (or20) % during combat or due to environmental ... problems.

This causes various status effects to appear. Injuries. You hobble around, you tire more easily, cant jump, cant aim very well, cant talk so smoothly, etc, etc.
You can still function but decidedly not at the best of your abilities. In terms of gameplay it would simply mean you are in deep shit but you can still get out of it if you try really hard. It would be like the game turned on extra hard mode for a while.
I think it would bring a nice sense of achievement to the players if they decide to stick it out and play on, wounded like that.
Especially if such efforts would result in some small but appropriate reward, such as gaining a point in "hardness" or opening some perks or giving a small trait, or getting some extra responses from NPCs.

And it would cause players to be careful about combat, instead of just swinging away wildly until last point of HP disappears.


- It would not be a common thing to experience since first, the body would have various advanced protections due to nature of this happening in near future and the game is not combat focused anyway.
So most of the gameplay will be doing other stuff, not fighting every five seconds.
And even when you fight it would be mostly non-lethal, since killing someone would actually matter a lot in most of the game, baring maybe a few special situations such as... defending a location from enemy lethal attack, etc, etc.


- Targeting attacks would be more about damaging and disabling those targets, instead of completely destroying them.
I never used the eye shots in fallout myself because it just seemed too cheesy and too easy to get, so while i would also have such a possibility i would make it much, much harder to actually score.
Which the setting would actually support by its internal logic and consistency. For example, you would have some sort of realistic chance to hit the eyes only from close range. But that would work for enemies too.

All such risky shots would be "risky shots" which would cause bad things to happen if you or enemy miss them.
Besides, you would have helmets and stuff.




- additionally,
as you get damages and heal, get damages and heal, get damages and heal, ... over time, if you do it too much, you accrue long lasting or permanent damages to "the system". There is only so much punishment a body can take and regenerate fully.
These would not be big things since the technology will be advanced enough to provide better medical care then it is now and you wont be spending that much gametime inside the game story content length - BUT, you just cant keep healing everything indefinitely.

Such permanent maladies could be mostly cosmetic. Just something to paint your character path in a few unique traits to show all the shit youve been through.

But they could be of stronger more serious nature from time to time, depending in what exactly you stepped into in your adventures.
There could be more serious stuff like permanently loosing an eye or a hand or a leg or getting scars and so on, but that raises the complexity of design a lot.
And i think that such extraordinary stuff would be best left to unique scripted events instead of being systemic. If its in the game at all.

 

[hiver]

- Stamina maintenance. When I wrestled, stamina maintenance was pretty much the thing that decided if you'd win or not. You can see that today in MMA or boxing matches.

Actually, since my ideas are thought about with realistic natural common sense approach from the ground up, There will be a "tiredness" sort of measure. It will make sense because you will play in a 24 hour days sections where not resting will have consequences, on stamina as well.
This will be "cured" by resting which will be limited to once per 24 hours.

You wont be forced to rest, but if you dont... things will start to happen.

There will be immediate stamina cost for things you do in the moment and there will be accrued stamina loss that you will heal by resting.

- Normal 8 hour rest will heal or help heal only superficial physical wounds, for anything else you will go to a hospital and lose days or months.Which will matter because quests wont be waiting for you.

- Armor and weapon loss. Force players to take more into consideration - have backup weapons, have armor degrade as a fight wears on, etc.
- Armor and weapon-specific negatives/bonuses. (Crushing, slashing, etc., but also that something like plate armor would be impervious to a slashing sword while too cumbersome to dodge a hammer or mace. The Game of Thrones RPG toyed with this system.)

Yes. Although this isnt a medieval setting so appropriately different.

- Mental health. Morale, sound thinking, etc. It's kind of a different topic, but I rarely see 'morale' in RPGs aside from fear spells and the like.

Stress.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

I had a system in mind where you have several body parts, and damage was divided to temporary damage and permanent damage. Like, your enemy dealt 25 points of damage, and you could regenerate only about 10 points without using healing items.

Also, permanent damage could bring down your stats until you get some real healing. Receiving a critical hit from any weapon could severely damage your body and fuck you up, and resting/healing items could only allow you to survive until you reach the healer (bit resting is also a quick suicide if you're bleeding), and you could heal these wounds only if healer was competent enough. Otherwise little to no effect/sorri, I accidentally made it worse.

 

[WhiteGuts]

MGS3.

 

[T. Reich]

It all sounds good and well on paper, but in reality any combat involving such convoluted mechanics will simply become either too random to be enjoyable (you got critically hit in combat, which means you're crippled and can't win it... reload and repeat until you get lucky) or will be exploited for its weaknesses (Fallout with its aimed shots to the eyes/crotch comes to mind immediately).

In the end, it usually detracts from the fun in exchange for some nebulous "realism".

 

[hiver]

MGS3.

Feel free to elaborate instead of writing stupid acronyms.

It all sounds good and well on paper, but in reality any combat involving such convoluted mechanics will simply become either too random to be enjoyable (you got critically hit in combat, which means you're crippled and can't win it... reload and repeat until you get lucky) or will be exploited for its weaknesses (Fallout with its aimed shots to the eyes/crotch comes to mind immediately).

In the end, it usually detracts from the fun in exchange for some nebulous "realism".

Fuck off from this thread and go and make stupid declaratory statements in the rest of the forums, you and your fucking fun.

you got critically hit in combat, which means you're crippled and can't win it... reload and repeat until you get lucky

Aww, im going to immediately invent some stupid way so you can win easily and make the whole game around satisfying a devolved stupid shit.

gtfo.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, for complexity and detail of health system design, it's hard to beat Dwarf Fortress, I guess.

 

[hiver]

Well, for complexity and detail of health system design, it's hard to beat Dwarf Fortress, I guess.

Explain! Explain for fuck sake... i havent played every game in existence.

Im not telepathic and neither are other people reading.

- although, as i said in OP i am not looking for anything that is needlessly too complex, and something fitting for an cRPG that is NOT combat focused.

 

[Jools]

you might mean drakensang, which follow the rules of the dark eye p&p. Health is simulated via HP as usual, but if a hit causes more damage than half your constitution, it causes a wound in addition to the normal hp loss, which inflicts attribute debuffs and can onle be healed via rest or strong healing skill/spell.

NEO Scavenger might be worth looking at. Health system has more depth than just hitpoints.

not an rpg but amazing system: bushido blade for psx

Yes, Drakensang would have been the first name I'd mention too: I did like the system, during my playthrough. PoE Also has that interesting HP/endurance combined thing (not really having much of an influence on gameplay on normal, not sure about it on harder difficulty levels), and the Fallouts have that "crippling" system where hitting specific body parts can result in specific results (-walking speed, -accuracy, blindness, stun, etc...), and restoring a crippled part requires specific medical care (the availability of the latter was kinda subject to the difficulty level).

Just my 2c.

 

[T. Reich]

MGS3.

Feel free to elaborate instead of writing stupid acronyms.

It all sounds good and well on paper, but in reality any combat involving such convoluted mechanics will simply become either too random to be enjoyable (you got critically hit in combat, which means you're crippled and can't win it... reload and repeat until you get lucky) or will be exploited for its weaknesses (Fallout with its aimed shots to the eyes/crotch comes to mind immediately).

In the end, it usually detracts from the fun in exchange for some nebulous "realism".

Fuck off from this thread and go and make stupid declaratory statements in the rest of the forums, you and your fucking fun.

you got critically hit in combat, which means you're crippled and can't win it... reload and repeat until you get lucky

Aww, im going to immediately invent some stupid way so you can win easily and make the whole game around satisfying a devolved stupid shit.

gtfo.

Ahh, I see your Dumbfuck badge was well-earned.

Now I'm gonna devote a tiny portion of my time to ruin your topic, just to spite you.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Well, for complexity and detail of health system design, it's hard to beat Dwarf Fortress, I guess.

Explain! Explain for fuck sake... i havent played every game in existence.

Im not telepathic and neither are other people reading.

- although, as i said in OP i am not looking for anything that is needlessly too complex, and something fitting for an cRPG that is NOT combat focused.

It's very simulationist. Also gory and fun. I wish there were an actual RPG like that, making fights less of a number micro-management game and more of a "holy shit, my right leg just got melted by acid![falls unconscious to pain shock]" thing.

You can have stuff like this:

Spoiler

 

[hiver]

Now I'm gonna devote a tiny portion of my time to ruin your topic, just to spite you.

You cant ruin anything, or spite anyone. You are too stupid for that. Another brainless cretinous turd. A subhuman devolved shit.
The best you can do is invent idiotic strawman arguments and then argue against them, or another set of self defeating vacuous statements you dont even understand. Because you actually are a stupid lowly moron.

Yes, Drakensang would have been the first name I'd mention too: I did like the system, during my playthrough. PoE Also has that interesting HP/endurance combined thing (not really having much of an influence on gameplay on normal, not sure about it on harder difficulty levels), and the Fallouts have that "crippling" system where hitting specific body parts can result in specific results (-walking speed, -accuracy, blindness, stun, etc...), and restoring a crippled part requires specific medical care (the availability of the latter was kinda subject to the difficulty level).
Just my 2c.

The targeting system and consequences for each part you can target are already in, just like in Falouts, only in my "game" healing items would not be so easily available... or magical. I dont think difficulty level changed anything about doctor skill or availability of NPCs that can heal those critical damages.

It's very simulationist. Also gory and fun. I wish there were an actual RPG like that, making fights less of a number micro-management game and more of a "holy shit, my right leg just got melted by acid![falls unconscious to pain shock]" thing.

I see. No, thats not what appeals to me. Its very overblown and i have no idea how that works mechanically at all, just from looking at results. Anyway, too needlessly complicated (detailed fight between a dragon and a baby? what the fuck for?) for a cRPG, especially one i have in mind.
But thanks for the examples.

 

[laclongquan]

Unreal World is the best system

You have a total 100% health.

You get hurt at different part of the body. each injury eat up some percent: the more heavy, the more %.

Critical injury get some additional effect: leg --> cant stand...

You heal injury, and they get healed at different pace depend on the critical state (red is slower than green), the type of injury (eye is harder than torso), the method (correct method heal faster), healer's skill, and blessings.

Also different type of injury has different method to heal: poisoning need something to drink to sweat/vomit, wounds need bandages, poultices, maybe splints...

 

[Perkel]

Dwarf Fortress health system.

turn based combat in DF also is good as depending on movement weapons speed, skill and so on different body parts can have different hit type (like light hit, good hit) and to hit chance.

For example targeting hand is hard and damage will probably be small to overall health but if you manage to get it you can basically disarm him.

Also gelding strikes.

After few adventures it really feels good to have all your limbs and only like 2 or 3 missing fingers and one ear.

 

[T. Reich]

You cant ruin anything, or spite anyone. You are too stupid for that. Another brainless cretinous turd. A subhuman devolved shit.
The best you can do is invent idiotic strawman arguments and then argue against them, or another set of self defeating vacuous statements you dont even understand. Because you actually are a stupid lowly moron.

Nice retort, for an aspie. I need not make up any arguments, since your ideas for whatever abortion of a "project" you have in mind are just as pointless and crooked and your life. At best, you'd make a barely-playable pile of turd, but more likely you're not even going to finish it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Unreal World is the best system

You have a total 100% health.

You get hurt at different part of the body. each injury eat up some percent: the more heavy, the more %.

Critical injury get some additional effect: leg --> cant stand...

You heal injury, and they get healed at different pace depend on the critical state (red is slower than green), the type of injury (eye is harder than torso), the method (correct method heal faster), healer's skill, and blessings.

Also different type of injury has different method to heal: poisoning need something to drink to sweat/vomit, wounds need bandages, poultices, maybe splints...

While I agree URW has a good system, you completed ignored what is probably the best pat: Stamina management. Even at full health, if you're exhausted (whether from running after/away from someone, or from fighting or because you just spent 2 hours chopping trees down) you'll be totally useless in a fight. An example of how this generally plays out is something like this:

You get in a fight with a bunch of people for some reason or another. You're a mighty badass in heavy armour and they're half naked savages with knives. Now, you can expend a lot of stamina fighting aggressively, but they can still dodge, and if you can't kill them all quickly enough, you'll have such a heavy fatigue penalty they'll be able to easily circle behind you and score critical hits, or even just do it from the front if you're tired enough. Option two is to be defensive, steadily backing up and only going for counter attacks on people thrown off balance after a failed attack, particularly aiming for their legs so they have trouble keeping up as you backpedal. This can work but because you're not as aggressive, it's more likely you'll have to defend multiple attacks per turn, which can tire you just as quickly. Lastly; if you can get into a corner or something and only have to deal with one guy at a time, you can probably fend off a huge number of people, because you simply won't get tired very quickly.

Another example would be something like shooting at a bear or something, and then running away from it for a while. Provided you're better at running than the bear (helps a ton if you injured it's feet with the bow or a trap) at some point it'll be so exhausted you can start stopping to take pot shots at it.

I've often considered making some sort of system based around the idea of having a pool of defensive stamina, representing your ability to continue dodging or blocking attacks, etc. Instead of having modifers and penalties, you simply automatically dodge if you have enough stamina left, and take damage if you don't. This doesn't take into account the exhaustion from attacking (though you could easily add it), but it works as a nice layer to abstract an aspect of fighting that would explain why you might be able to get in multiple fights in a day and fully recover between each one, unlike a pure hp system where actual injury is rolled into the same abstraction as simply being too tired to defend oneself.

 

[laclongquan]

He asked for health, I gave him health.

As for armour versus non, Both has its use.

Lightly armored has freedom to run and fight for hours on end (barring injuries). Easier to dodge, too.

But heavy armour has few things going for it
- More forgiving of mistakes and bad lucks. you can get hit a few times and not injuried yet, realistically-like. With non armor, you get hit once and you go down hill from there.
- Defense of arrows. Even if you can manage a one-on-one fight with one of the hostiles by managing your terrain carefully, you cant escape from missile attacks You will get hit. But armor allow you survival against them.

As for one against many, you (in general, not Damned Registrations specifically ) are too stupid to live if you get in scuffles like that. A proper fight is you (heavy armored and armed) against one of them, sleeping. Sneak in and cut their throats. Fair fights are for suckers.

Of course, you cant avoid that if you assault red camp. But even then you can manage night attack to cut a few throats in their sleeps.

But at the end of day, you still have to fight a few of them . DONT fight all at once. The tent or the house make for nice place to one on one even though you still may get arrows. Kill them, then close the door and rest to regain stamina.

If you have to fight one againts many. FIght in the middle of the night, in winter. From maximum range and I do mean maximum, shoot arrows at them. More than likely they wont knows where you are, so stop and withdraw a bit. Repeat. Since they have to move around, they lose stamina. If they sleep, they are pincushion. After you expend upward of 40 arrows, and about two hours shooting, moving in. You are fresh with no wounds while they are (maybe) tired, but certainly have some wounds. Go from one to another and try not to engage more than one at a time. Dont hesitate to hit then run.

Shoot at maximum range, at a bunch of target, the rate of hit can go from 10% to 30%. With 40+ arrows, it mean each of them can sport a wound and more.

EDIT: I dont advocate fair fights also because some of the hostiles can be very skilled. An empty handed lightly armored red can kick you to death. And remember: URW is rogue, perma-death. perma-death does not encourage reckless behaviours.