Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

TBS Battlestar Galactica: Deadlock - simultaneous turn-based space fleet strategy from Slitherine

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by LESS T_T, May 16, 2017.

  1. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    Click here and disable ads!
    I finished it and overall I have to say it needs more content and feels rushed in some areas. Cylons only have 6 capital ships versus 7 Colonial types. Could also use more customizing options for ships.

    The strategic map wouldn't suffer from adding some Cylon military assets to it. Why can't I find a Cylon mining operation and attack it? Why can't I weaken cylon offensive capabilities by raiding a staging ground? Also the map should extend beyond the 12 colonies to enable that. What about surface attack or ground bombardment? Or using fast ships for hit and run? Recon? Stealth? Installations on uninhabited rocks to aid your strategic operations? What about building ships elsewhere than on Daidalos?

    I imagine the budget was probably not big enough to accommodate for some other things (the license ate most of it probably and the as usual dumb decision to do console ports wastes another pile of cash), but some cut-scenes (other than in engine of ships in spaceeeee), animatics or still frames would be good for the story. The presentation is a bit bare bones, it's just some comms chatter, briefings and not much else. And there are a few events that really could use a cut-scene to better convey what is supposed to be going on. Some cases in point:

    Campaign Spoilers (open)
    Cylons use chemical weapon on Saggitaron. Saggitaron says fuck you to the colonial fleet. Blah blah Caprican imperialism, we do not recognize the puppet government, we don't want doc Cottle helping our dying children. Some background on it would be great, a news segment or a newswire article or anything in game. I know they probably had their hands tied by Universal regarding what they can do so they avoided going too much into details or everything would need to get vetted first. But the storytelling really seemed barebones.

    The other case, most likely the biggest one. Cylons getting nukes. Ignoring the fact I never saw the AI fire one at me in the campaign. Huge shock, supposedly Cylon propaganda showed it but we only hear Agathon describing it like that. We see nothing, only hear that it is a problem. A lot of wasted potential here. There are a few really good moments in the campaigns plot that get wasted due to insufficient presentation.

    Random articles


    The game would have been better if it covered the whole war or most of it with a more fleshed-out strategic layer. The tactical battles are good, but some more ships or flexibility, at least in the campaign, would have been better. Such as getting rid of the ship cap per fleet and only enforcing a point limit for fleets per officer. Also having smaller Cylon fleets instead of full point pool flying around all the time in the endgame. Also facing a fleet composed solely of Arachne or Cerberus class ships gets old fast.

    Nukes are underwhelming. I do not mind that they are not instant-kill. But they only evaporate facing in one out of 6 directions and take a chunk of the hull and there appears to be no area of effect. Also they are ridiculously slow. And worst of all, you can have only one per ship.

    :rage:

    Officer skills seem very underwhelming, most of them outright useless and the trees allow little flexibility. It is always fleet points, subsystem strength bonus, something for the flagship. The first one is a no brainer, the other two are barely noticeable. The only exceptions are engineering where there's a slight damage reduction(to the flagship) and fortification bonus increase.

    The music is good, it is not McCreary sure, but it is good and most of it emulates McCreary's style well. I also like that they recorded two tracks that are synced, one for the planning phase and the other for the execution with one switching into the other smoothly without any noticeable discontinuity.

    The battle system is of course very good and I bet it is fun in MP although I failed to get a match going so far. Not easy to play online anything that isn't a ridiculous hit.

    To sum up, this game could have been ridiculously good if it had more ships and ship options and the campaign map was better developed. Ripping off x-com in more aspects for the campaign could have added a lot. There's a lot of potential with the setting and conflict theme that has not been utilized, both in the strategic gameplay aspect and in story telling/mission design.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Parrots:
    4,710
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    One question about fighters.

    Are those just extra assets that one deploys at the start of the battle or is there some carrier warfare styled mechanics where you have to call them in for maintenance?
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Parrots:
    4,710
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    http://www.slitherine.com/news/2410/Battlestar.Galactica.Deadlock.-.Console.Release.Date.Announced!

     
    • decline decline x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Parrots:
    4,710
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    http://www.slitherine.com/news/2455...scalates....the.Reinforcement.Pack.is.coming!

    http://www.slitherine.com/products/product.asp?gid=715
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    The screenshot with the Phobos implies either a new mutliplayer game mode with objectives or a Cylon campaign. I hope it is the latter. The devs mentioned there will be a major free update to the base game when the DLC and console ports are released (on the 8th).

    Both the Phobos and Cerates sound good.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Parrots:
    4,710
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    http://www.slitherine.com/news/2585...dlock.an.exclusive.first.look.at.the.new.DLC!

     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    They already hinted working on an expansion but it is good to hear there will be one. I hope it focuses on a later part of the war and adds at least 5 new ships per side and adds deeper strategic layer mechanics (deeper resource management, research/reverse engineering of cylons stuff) plus some new mission types (invasion escort/defence?, pursuit?). Or a Cylon campaign.

    The tactical part of this game is really good and I had fun in multiplayer, but the rather shallow campaign mechanics and low ship number (especially for the Cylons) were it's flaws. Well, also the storytelling could be better but that is secondary to gameplay mechanics/content.

    I have been recently thinking of this game in the context of the HBS Battletech, before BSG:D got released they touted the ship blueprints as god-knows-what major feature fantastic mechanic for ship design. When in reality it only munitions/squadron customization and a research mechanic. One thing I miss in this game that Battletech has (despite Battletech's other shortcoming) is that the battlemechs are more customizable. If BSG:D allowed us to at least swap the guns and maybe their positions on the ships, it would be major incline. If we could do more, such as add/remove armor from ship sides, engines, FTL drives, sensors - it would be even better.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. agris Arcane Patron

    agris
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Parrots:
    3,095
    Hellraiser Ok, so BSG doesn't have as much customization in load-out of ships as BT. What about the actual tactical gameplay, is it better than HBS's BT? Is there a strategic layer, and if so, what do you think of it?
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    Hard to compare the two on the tactical layer. One is a simultanous turn-based system with a planning and execution phase, not that far off from a real-time with pause only without you having control over the pausing. The other is a rather typical turn-based tactical system.

    The strategic layer in BSG-D is very simplistic. There are two resources. Tylium which you use as a currency to buy ships and armaments/refits, fuel for moving (fleets can jump for free but it takes more time). Requisition points which you use to upgrade officers, buy officers and unlock tech (note that the tech available to unlock depends on what story missions you did so far - this is linear). You get Tylium from making sure the Colonies are garrisoned and no Cylons blockade a Colony, if the Cylons park in orbit of a Colony or maybe if they fly around the un-inhabited worlds around the same star as Colonies, morale drops. Colony morale is tied to income from the colony. A very demoralized colony will leave the Quorum of 12 (depriving you of income) and you will lose the campaign if too many leave. However unlike X-Com they can join back if you garrison the colony again and some time passes.

    RP is granted by story missions and random secondary missions. The latter are usually skirmish with an extra objective or supposedly extra difficulty (often it is just "remove toaster from premises" only there's a basestar or two that usually appear later in regular Cylon fleets), I think they might also raise morale. They are only available for a couple of turns and not taking them I think is a morale hit.

    Officer mechanics are rather flat. Practically the only meaningful skill is raising the fleet point cap which every officer has luckily (this is actually very crucial or maybe was because Cylons quickly gaining fleet cap was addressed in one of the patches). The others are more or less useless (better marines? faster sub-system repair? Flag-ship only bonuses? honestly?) except for maybe the income increase from garrisoned Colony.

    There are regular skirmish fights (no rewards, but they stop the Cylons from blocking the Colonies), optional random missions (not a whole lot of variety there but they give RP and Tylium rewards) and story missions. You cannot build defensive stations, resource outposts, sensor outposts or anything else that could be useful for the war effort on the strategic map. It is just fleet placement and picking what to garrison/liberate with what fleet. Cylons just spawn from off-map and have no outposts which you could raid to reduce the spawn-rate or anything.

    There is no diplomacy or political in-fighting. There should be given the setting, no reason Virgon and Leonis shouldn't bitch at each other accusing the fleet of favouritism for the other.

    Battletech has better "officer" (mechwarrior) development, by which I mean that the skills are not utterly useless despite being also simple, although I think they are less simple than in BSG:D.

    The tactical layer is hard to compare. Battletech could have been better, just look at the post from yesterday from I forgot who in the battletech topic about melee in the tabletop versus HBS' game. But it has better customization for your units, actual terrain (affecting LOS/LOF which is IMO great) and maybe not the best mechanics in the world (nu-xcom style 2 move turns instead of action points, only one melee attack type, no reaction-shots/overwatch, useless light mechs) but despite some balancing issues (and simplifications compared to the tabletop from what I understand) the evasions, stability damage, heat, pilot damage and being able to blow off chunks of mechs make for a decent although not spectacular tactical gameplay.

    BSG might seem simpler but it's simultaneous turn system with 3D space movement and 3D firing arcs is fun and seemed fresh. I had a blast in multiplayer. Also fighter squadrons deployment was nice. You could use them as scouts, you could use them to shoot down missiles (and nukes, which are pretty much useless). In fact I think what BSG:D did best was that despite the not so big unit variety it made you think not so much how to construct your fleet but how to use it's resources and of the timing.

    Do you fire your missiles now or wait? Maybe you want to send your fighters to the flank of the battlestar and force it to turn on flaks on that side rendering the other without a flak field and thus open to your missile salvo (my favourite tactic). You wait to much and his fighters or his guns blow up your missile ships. Or you get simply outdamaged by his fleet in a slugfest. You fire at the wrong moment and his fighters turn to intercept your missiles or he turns on flaks and the missile fly straight into shrapnel. Maybe you use the fact you have missiles to intimidate your opponent, make him paranoid with flaks up all the time so you can outgun him.

    Then you have fighters. Do you intercept his fighters/missiles? Do you try to flank his weak ships avoiding flak zones? Do you scout his fleet to know which blip is what ship? Maybe you park them directly above his battlestar and have them shoot the top armor safe from flaks (another tactic I like) or fly near to force him to use flaks?

    Movement, despite the lack of terrain features (besides asteroids you can crash into, fun) seems also to matter more. In Battletech it is fairly easy to turn and flank at close range (no attack of opportunity, so only a movement range issue). Terrain matters, although the game needs forest fires as forests are a no brainer. In BSG-D you have to consider the slow turning rates, firing arcs during the manoeuvre (in HBS Battletech it is almost a non-issue as your target is static, if the game had reaction shots dependent on facing it would be better), any torpedo flying your way (torps are unguided and can be dodged or rather should be as they hurt like hell), any enemy fighters on approach vector (do you turn and fire flaks to face them? Do you hide ships behind that flak zone?), possible ramming attempts or collision courses (or ramming opportunities) and of course enemy enemy firing arcs and the damage to your armor side(s).

    Overall I think Battletech has more/deeper mechanics but BSG-D utilizes its mechanics better for meaningful tactical choices during combat. Maybe it could be because I played Battletech maybe for a week and I played BSG longer and also online so I had more opportunities to use (or be forced to use) brainpower to make choices in BSG and Battletech is easier, even after I modded some additional difficulty.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    ^ Top  
  10. agris Arcane Patron

    agris
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Parrots:
    3,095
    Hellraiser Thanks for the lengthy write-up. :salute: It sounds like, all things considered, you found the BSG tactical fights more challenging and the game more enjoyable than HBS's BT. I understand all the shortcomings you've mentioned, and surely both games would be better if those issues were addressed.

    BT is scratching two itches for me right now: tactical combat, and the tweaker-side who enjoys messing with the load outs. It sounds like BSG will be more reward on the combat side, but much less so on the tweaker side.

    In BT, I would love to see forest cover begin to burn wherever missiles land, be it your hex or the hex(es) where errant shots land. Those locations being the nexus for a turn-by-turn progression of 'forest fire' that both strips the cover bonus and imposes a heat sink malus is a great idea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. LESS T_T Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    LESS T_T
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Parrots:
    6,894
    Codex 2014
    New expansion:



     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    So we get heal boats now? Not sure if I like the idea. The cap ships and squadrons are ok. Well, the raptors is a much needed addition and the scorpion, if it can be used against fighters as well is good. Then again the other DLC added a proper anti-fighter ship for the Cylons so maybe this one just covers the missile gap.

    They should scrap the ship number cap (not sure why it is in place, console memory being a limit maybe?) to make lighter ships more viable.

    I hope they add some new campaign mechanics besides just the story missions. I know they added persistent damage along the way in a patch. I'll check out the stream to see if it has more details than just new-ship/story wank.
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    Ok, so the devs either want to hide features until later or there's nothing more to this new expansions than the 4 ships and 2 squadrons and 8 missions, however it was confirmed some free updates/improvements are coming and will be announced next week:

    2 new heavy capital ships - the Colonial one is a glass cannon battlestar with lots of firepower, the Cylon one is a proto-second war basestar that has only fighters and missiles and for now can do tactical jumps (they should keep this ability, it sounds amazing due to "jump-torp salvo" and would solve the main problem the classical basestar has, namely being a sitting torpedo target)

    2 new support ships - both unarmed, the Colonial one can add additional armour (seems to be 20-ish) to any side of a given ship and restock guided missiles of any other ships via a raptor supply run. The latter is definitely supply-limited, not sure about the first. The Cylon one seems slightly better, it can repair hull and it can somehow increase missile salvo effectiveness of nearby ships. Not sure how that works, damage buff?

    The mission showed on the stream included minefields which had to be disarmed by raptors or navigated around, with mines being an addition from the first DLC.

    One improvement noticed that will probably come in a patch anyway is that it shows the Cylon fleet markers sliding on the campaign map board when their fleets move, so now you know which fleet moved where. If the damage is also persistent for Cylon fleets, and the retreating options aren't too prohibitive (they added it at some point), this would make for better strategic play with hit and run attack options and chasing down battered toaster fleets.

    No sign of any other campaign mechanic improvements though :/
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
    ^ Top  
  14. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    They gave some details on the free patch update that will be coming at some point in the future:

    https://steamcommunity.com/games/544610/announcements/detail/3783465501594785178

    Basically besides raptors being able to board ships and wardriver squadrons getting a jamming ability, it is a whole bunch of nothing.

    Oh sure, they re-did the ship blueprint screen and added some extra info, fixed some UI issues and added moving pieces.

    Well ok, that will come in a patch so it is ok for a patch I guess, but the expansion pack content really seems lacking. We will see what the price will be, more than 50 potato I am not willing to pay, unless they add some new mechanics.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    I know I am pulling an infinitron here with being the only one to post in this topic for a while, but there's an update on the update that will be release parallel to the DLC.

    https://steamcommunity.com/games/544610/announcements/detail/1643131131189912173

    Very nice and much needed campaign difficulty changes, especially the officer starting cap change, but also Cylons having some limitations. Also the support slot which will makes life easier.

    The Atlas gets a buff as it gains some guns. The Jupiter gets a bit more plating but probably it is still a point sink unless they buffed the firepower or something. We'll see the exact numbers tomorrow when it releases.

    BTW I will LP the campaign, link is in the signature.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  16. holla_cabezas_de_mierda Cipher

    holla_cabezas_de_mierda
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Parrots:
    537
    is this game worth it at 50% off? I have been watching it for awhile,
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Hellraiser Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,458
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    Price is fair at 50% off. It's a AA title with a costly (I guess) license attached. But I wouldn't get it without the DLC, the extra ships added much needed variety. The first DLC costs less than a pizza anyway, the second one is a bit more than a large pizza. The strongest side of this game are the tactical battles and the new ships add more options to them. The strategic campaign layer is lacking mechanically I would say but not without challenges.

    Multiplayer is not as lively as it should be.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)