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Azarkon vs the Cult of Hardcore RPG Fatalism - can hardcore RPGs sell better?

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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First off, showing this at all is poor marketing.
More like honest marketing.

Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason.
Which is a bad thing, right?

I could talk about this shit forever, and it's just my opinion, but basically I think your typical Steam buyer is making on-the-fly purchases largely based on initial impressions of images and ratings. The average buyer seems to be very impulsive, mind you, and owns a lot of games he wouldn't ordinarily buy if it weren't for constant sales. These games just don't seem to want to take advantage of that.
But the goal is to sell your game to people who want to play it, not fool others into making an impulse purchase and buying a game they would never play, no?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Vault Dweller On that note, it would be interesting to see your game completion achievement percentages in a few months. The "big indies" have very low ones, as you probably know.
 

sser

Arcane
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I
First off, showing this at all is poor marketing. One of the drawbacks of turn-based games is that their actual interfaces are aesthetically unappealing to most people. It's just very hard to make it look natural. So what do devs do? They hide it. Unless your appearance is A-grade, it's got no business being shown to your average consumer. Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason. (Before you get on my nuts about the expectations of the assumed audience, take into account that you want to sell outside your base consumer and also that even hardcore wargames like those Battlefront sell are still largely presented to the consumer wholly absent of their interfaces. The inside flap of Talon Soft's West Front, IIRC, was a huge splash image of Omaha Beach. Again, I do believe that was missing an interface as well.)


I would never ever buy a game without seeing it's UI or screens how it really plays and looks in-game ,and am greatly annoyed if game's steam page does not have any.

I wouldn't either, but I'm entertaining the crazy notion that the average consumer is not the average Codexer. Also writing this from an old phone is a fucking nightmare

Edit: I think y'all are missing the point completely. You wonder about the nature of sales, but when given a cold explanation turn to virtues which have no place here. I can't really go into more detail though as I am typing letters that key in at 0.1fps.
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
CRPGs are not the average genre ,so employing the marketing strategy as some action focused game will not work the same.

So what you say is ,stop the presses ,drop all design and mechanics work on these CRPGs and focus on aesthetics and teh grafiks to bring casuals.

edit: I think everybody understands what you are saying.But we are talking about small teams that make these games (sometimes one or two people) so priorities are key.I can't deny that AoD or Underrail would look way better in Cryengine with teams of graphic and UI designers working on them.
 
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sser

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CRPGs are not the average genre ,so employing the marketing strategy as some action focused game will not work the same.

So what you say is ,stop the presses ,drop all design and mechanics work on these CRPGs and focus on aesthetics and teh grafiks to bring casuals.

I referenced wargames for a reason.
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
CRPGs are not the average genre ,so employing the marketing strategy as some action focused game will not work the same.

So what you say is ,stop the presses ,drop all design and mechanics work on these CRPGs and focus on aesthetics and teh grafiks to bring casuals.

I referenced wargames for a reason.

You referenced a game from 90's ,just open Steam and look at any non-AAA turn based strategy.Can't find single one that doesn't show in-game screens with UI in 90% of them.
 

Azarkon

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Messages
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Or this FPS/RTS, which is made entirely by one person.



To be fair, this guy has 10+ years of experience in the game industry, and went in as a professional artist, so the skill set was already there.

But it's ultimately irrelevant, as shown by Undertale, To the Moon, and other similar and successful games.

You don't need AAA looking graphics, you just need to know your market.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure AAA graphics'd have helped Legends of Eisenwald and Age of Decadence sell.

But it'd have also inflated the cost of making those games and restricted their design, and in doing so, made it cost ineffective. Selling an extra 300,000 copies when you spent an extra five million dollars on the graphics isn't necessarily worth it.
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus II

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I'm having trouble with this part of Undertale. Anyone care to help me?

atari_10.jpg


My PC is the little girl in yellow just south of the skull cave.
 
Joined
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In this respect, it is necessary to examine what made Undertale and similar indie games so successful, as there's no "AAA"/"publisher" argument to fall back on.

I thought we had settled in "tumblr/hipster hype"??
More like Flavor of the Month hype times 100, seen it tons of times back on 4chan and it's cycle is very similar to what is happening now.


Underrail
Arcanum
Serpent in the Staglands
Lords of Xulima
Dead State

What is common with all the indie titles on this list is that they sold under 100,000 copies. As for Arcanum, it sold 234,000 copies, which is still terrible for a big-time developer but does show the effects of publisher support and developer fame.

But is this the fate of all turn-based Western RPGs in today's industry? Not exactly.

Shadowrun Returns: ~870,000 copies
Wasteland 2: ~500,000 copies
Banner Saga: ~550,000 copies

What is common with all of the above, in contrast to the previous list? The answer is name recognition. Shadowrun Returns had Jordan Weisman, creator of Shadowrun. Wasteland 2 was, of course, Brian Fargo with many members of the old Wasteland team. Banner Saga was former Bioware developers. You could also add Pillars of Eternity to this list of successes though, of course, it's RtWP not turn-based.

What all this shows is that "niche" gaming exists, but that it revolves around established persons and franchises. One could call it the "soccer dad" effect, but I've no demographics data to back that up. Regardless, the effect is the same - developer/franchise loyalty creates a group of dedicated buyers and helps with marketing, which in turn allows the games to sell hundreds of thousands of copies and secure millions in Kickstarter backing.

I dunno. I think the common theme with the clunkers is that they all look aesthetically unappealing from a marketing point of view. There's something to be said about images vs. videos vs. actually playing a game, too. For example, I think Wasteland 2 looks half-decent in images, but looks like total ass when played. I thought The Long Dark looked bad in images, but it's instant immersion when you see it in motion. Underrail, Arcanum, Serpents et al look like mud your average gawker. They all use a lot of text and, quite fucking bizarrely, all their text is really goddam hard to read. That doesn't do any of them favors. Now someone could say that Undertale looks stupid, but it's aesthetically not. It looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests - quirky, nostalgic. The text is terse and in huge font.

Consumers are graphics whores at heart and sometimes I am one too, and I usually turn shadows off in all my games. But when I say graphics whores, I don't mean maximum AA or pixels or whatever. I mean the game needs to look uniquely endearing and like it fits the gameplay. A lot of games just have this "Well, here's the engine we're using as a vehicle to drive the gameplay" look to them, but I just don't think that works anymore. Not if you're a top-down game doing a genre that's been around for decades. It might work for this new-age "survival" stuff (all those games look like total dogshit to me), but it doesn't work for this subset that's been seen and done already. 100% unfair, but it's just what I'm observing on Steam these days.

A lot of the 3D games also have this sorta generic look to them. Maybe it's just me, but I get a weird vibe from these games like I've been seeing the same 3D models over and over for years now. Example:

270464-brave_005.jpg

^ 1999, people. (Game is Braveheart for those that want to know.)


What's more, I think a lot of these games don't know the first thing about interfaces or how to make the basics look good. Check the battlegrounds in these two pictures, both of which are used as Steam previews:

ss_e6d7b2ddf5561774fbc78bdb6397ba970fa1461a.jpg


ss_2c8f646531be1854a02db4e28b7d1b1e2f75df5d.jpg


First off, showing this at all is poor marketing. One of the drawbacks of turn-based games is that their actual interfaces are aesthetically unappealing to most people. It's just very hard to make it look natural. So what do devs do? They hide it. Unless your appearance is A-grade, it's got no business being shown to your average consumer. Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason. (Before you get on my nuts about the expectations of the assumed audience, take into account that you want to sell outside your base consumer and also that even hardcore wargames like those Battlefront sell are still largely presented to the consumer wholly absent of their interfaces. The inside flap of Talon Soft's West Front, IIRC, was a huge splash image of Omaha Beach. Again, I do believe that was missing an interface as well.)

Second, Jesus Christ the design.

Why do we have bright blue and red squares poorly plastered over a more grim-colored 3D background? It shares ZERO resemblance to the overall aesthetic design, giving each image a very jarring, out of place look. Every police department understands the conjuctive purpose of these two colors, but apparently that's flown over the heads of whoever designed these two setups. This looks like something you'd see in an alpha, a placeholder of sorts. And then there is the actual design of coloring in the blocks. You take a 3D engine and carpet its floor with a transparent MSPaint look.

This might sound like pointless nagging, but I'm just using it as one example of something that matters to people even if they aren't aware of it. These images immediately tell me I'm looking at amateur stuff. I know I'm not. I know AoD is a well-designed game and I know some people think Dead State is. But I'm not the average consumer, so what is this doing here if your objective is to move product? You're already fighting an uphill battle by going with a merely "passing" aesthetic and jumping into a genre with a small-audience, why do even more harm?

I could talk about this shit forever, and it's just my opinion, but basically I think your typical Steam buyer is making on-the-fly purchases largely based on initial impressions of images and ratings. The average buyer seems to be very impulsive, mind you, and owns a lot of games he wouldn't ordinarily buy if it weren't for constant sales. These games just don't seem to want to take advantage of that.

Very well written post. It is a shame that it gets skimmed trough as just another forum post, this should be an article.
I find enthusiasts website like this one have a trend of dismissing the video aspect of video games, yet it is a facade because part of what makes many of their favorite classics appealing even to them is their aesthetics.


-Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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I'm having trouble with this part of Undertale. Anyone care to help me?

atari_10.jpg


My PC is the little girl in yellow just south of the skull cave.
You can tell this is fake because it actually looks like something from an 8-bit computer, unlike all those "8-bit" indie games (with rare exceptions)
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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The grafics are one of the main reasons I picked Fallout 2 up and it's one of the reasons I still play it over a decade later.

Fallout looks so good that even with horrible and blurry LCD scaling it still looks nice. And those death animations...awesome.

If it looked like goat vomit (e.g arcanum) I doubt I'd still care about it.

The sounds are also amazing and holy shit why do CRPGs have such trouble getting that right? I can hear pigrats being hit in the skull with crowbars when I close my eyes.
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus II

Unwanted
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Very well written post. It is a shame that it gets skimmed trough as just another forum post, this should be an article.
I find enthusiasts website like this one have a trend of dismissing the video aspect of video games, yet it is a facade because part of what makes many of their favorite classics appealing even to them is their aesthetics.


-Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad

It was a terrible post, retard with the fancy font. It was eaten and digested by the local career maker, career braker posters and shat all over.

- Abu, the Alladin Monkey
 

Seethe

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Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
967
Or this FPS/RTS, which is made entirely by one person.



To be fair, this guy has 10+ years of experience in the game industry, and went in as a professional artist, so the skill set was already there.

But it's ultimately irrelevant, as shown by Undertale, To the Moon, and other similar and successful games.

You don't need AAA looking graphics, you just need to know your market.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure AAA graphics'd have helped Legends of Eisenwald and Age of Decadence sell.

But it'd have also inflated the cost of making those games and restricted their design, and in doing so, made it cost ineffective. Selling an extra 300,000 copies when you spent an extra five million dollars on the graphics isn't necessarily worth it.


Not necessarily about the graphics. The amount of effort is clear. Although I agree with the experience part.
 
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Murk

Arcane
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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I liked sser 's post. I also won't buy a game until I see the interface, and am willing to deal with shoddy and ill-constructed visuals for an enjoyable game that has good gameplay or otherwise novel/interesting mechanics. But I also understand that he's not talking about me.
 
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Lurker King

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In this respect, it is necessary to examine what made Undertale and similar indie games so successful, as there's no "AAA"/"publisher" argument to fall back on.

Not if you don’t want to sell your soul to make more money. It all depends to how much you think you need to make to remain in business. I’m pretty sure that the likes of Iron Tower or Stygian don’t want to study shitty games closely in an attempt to emulate their success. Besides, these types of indie successes are too unpredictable and random too offer any useful guide to sell-out game developers.
 

Azarkon

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I
First off, showing this at all is poor marketing. One of the drawbacks of turn-based games is that their actual interfaces are aesthetically unappealing to most people. It's just very hard to make it look natural. So what do devs do? They hide it. Unless your appearance is A-grade, it's got no business being shown to your average consumer. Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason. (Before you get on my nuts about the expectations of the assumed audience, take into account that you want to sell outside your base consumer and also that even hardcore wargames like those Battlefront sell are still largely presented to the consumer wholly absent of their interfaces. The inside flap of Talon Soft's West Front, IIRC, was a huge splash image of Omaha Beach. Again, I do believe that was missing an interface as well.)


I would never ever buy a game without seeing it's UI or screens how it really plays and looks in-game ,and am greatly annoyed if game's steam page does not have any.

I wouldn't either, but I'm entertaining the crazy notion that the average consumer is not the average Codexer. Also writing this from an old phone is a fucking nightmare

Edit: I think y'all are missing the point completely. You wonder about the nature of sales, but when given a cold explanation turn to virtues which have no place here. I can't really go into more detail though as I am typing letters that key in at 0.1fps.

I enjoyed your post, but at the same time, I think it's a stretch to say that the average Western RPG fan cares as much about graphics as the average action-RTS fan. The games I cited - Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, and Banner Saga - have competent graphics but certainly it isn't fancy enough to warrant a buy just from looking at this:

Desert03.jpg


And we also have less direct examples such as Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, To the Moon, Undertale, etc. which aren't in the same category of "new traditional Western RPG releases" but nonetheless provide evidence that high-end graphics doesn't decide purchase rate. You could argue that RPG Maker/16-bit games are evaluated differently from other RPG games, but then you have to answer why Western RPG fans don't cut the same slack for "hardcore RPGs."

Are buyers only graphics whores when it comes to "hardcore RPGs?" That's not very believable to me.

I think I can get behind the idea that games such as Age of Decadence and Legend of Eisenwald could improve their graphics style and UI, but I don't think that's suddenly going to catapult them to commercial success.

I certainly don't think games such as Shadowrun Returns and Wasteland 2 sold well because of graphics.
 

Azarkon

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Messages
2,989
In this respect, it is necessary to examine what made Undertale and similar indie games so successful, as there's no "AAA"/"publisher" argument to fall back on.

Not if you don’t want to sell your soul to make more money. It all depends to how much you think you need to make to remain in business. I’m pretty sure that the likes of Iron Tower or Stygian don’t want to study shitty games closely in an attempt to emulate their success. Besides, these types of indie successes are too unpredictable and random too offer any useful guide to sell-out game developers.

I'm actually curious how Vince manages to stay in the business.

Didn't Age of Decadence take 10 years to make? I'm sure a lot of that was not full-time, but even still.
 
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Lurker King

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Underrail, Arcanum, Serpents et al look like mud your average gawker. They all use a lot of text and, quite fucking bizarrely, all their text is really goddam hard to read. That doesn't do any of them favors. Now someone could say that Undertale looks stupid, but it's aesthetically not. It looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests.

But Underrail, Arcanum, Serpents et al are not aesthetically stupid, but look like the exact type of game their gameplay suggest. You guys make me laugh hard. First, you assume that the success of every stupid game like "Undertale" means that they had some sort of merit, like some sort of secret formula. Maybe is the way they were presented? Of course, that is not the case at all, since the game was just randomly selected and promoted by an irrational and changeable SJW-weeaboo pretentious crowd; secondly, you start to rationalize how superior games who sold less must have failed at some point, and what they can learn from the secret formula used in idiotic games who sold more. What a fucking joke. If anything, Undertale looks much worse than Underrail, Arcanum and Serpents et al.
 
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Lurker King

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More than enough for the developers to quit their day jobs and work on the game full-time. You would know that if you bothered to read the thread.

sser argument: "Undertale" sold much more than other games because the game looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests.

Eyestabber: “Battle Brothers” also looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests.

Bubbles reply: “Battle Brothers” is not selling like a popular indie.
 

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