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Azarkon vs the Cult of Hardcore RPG Fatalism - can hardcore RPGs sell better?

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
In this respect, it is necessary to examine what made Undertale and similar indie games so successful, as there's no "AAA"/"publisher" argument to fall back on.

I thought we had settled in "tumblr/hipster hype"??
More like Flavor of the Month hype times 100, seen it tons of times back on 4chan and it's cycle is very similar to what is happening now.

Word of mouth is a symptom, not a cause.

Most indie games are brought up on popular social forums around the time of their release. The issue is that no one gives a fuck.

Vince gave a proper explanation, I think, even though I think he used the wrong words for it, which is what my reply to Jasede was about in the first place: it's not that these games are "hard"/"hardcore" because difficult games, such as Demon/Dark Souls, Ninja Gaiden, etc., sell just fine. It's because they try to appeal to a negligible market of new Western turn-based RPGs.

Other games that fit into this class:

Underrail
Arcanum
Serpent in the Staglands
Lords of Xulima
Dead State

What is common with all the indie titles on this list is that they sold under 100,000 copies. As for Arcanum, it sold 234,000 copies, which is still terrible for a big-time developer but does show the effects of publisher support and developer fame.

But is this the fate of all turn-based Western RPGs in today's industry? Not exactly.

Shadowrun Returns: ~870,000 copies
Wasteland 2: ~500,000 copies
Banner Saga: ~550,000 copies

What is common with all of the above, in contrast to the previous list? The answer is name recognition. Shadowrun Returns had Jordan Weisman, creator of Shadowrun. Wasteland 2 was, of course, Brian Fargo with many members of the old Wasteland team. Banner Saga was former Bioware developers. You could also add Pillars of Eternity to this list of successes though, of course, it's RtWP not turn-based.

What all this shows is that "niche" gaming exists, but that it revolves around established persons and franchises. One could call it the "soccer dad" effect, but I've no demographics data to back that up. Regardless, the effect is the same - developer/franchise loyalty creates a group of dedicated buyers and helps with marketing, which in turn allows the games to sell hundreds of thousands of copies and secure millions in Kickstarter backing.

Lesson learned? Trying to create a new franchise is hard, especially in this space of turn-based Western RPGs, where nostalgia for the old days and developer loyalty are decisive in sales pitches. Elitism, in Codex terms, does not translate, on average, to novelty seeking behavior - but rather to conservative behavior, where we don't give new developers & franchises a chance, but harp tirelessly about the glories of the old masters & their games. "Legends of Eisenwald? What the fuck is that? Age of Decadence? Eh, might try it one day. New Chris Avellone game set in D&D? Take my money now."
 
Last edited:
Weasel
Joined
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Messages
1,865,661
Elitism, in Codex terms, does not translate, on average, to novelty seeking behavior - but rather to conservative behavior, where we don't give new developers & franchises a chance, but harp tirelessly about the glories of the old masters & their games. "Legends of Eisenwald? What the fuck is that? Age of Decadence? Eh, might try it one day. New Chris Avellone game set in D&D? Take my money now."

Perhaps I'm missing the point you're making here, but I thought Age of Decadence had a lot of support on the Codex. The Codex isn't very big in the larger scheme of the things though.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
Elitism, in Codex terms, does not translate, on average, to novelty seeking behavior - but rather to conservative behavior, where we don't give new developers & franchises a chance, but harp tirelessly about the glories of the old masters & their games. "Legends of Eisenwald? What the fuck is that? Age of Decadence? Eh, might try it one day. New Chris Avellone game set in D&D? Take my money now."

Perhaps I'm missing the point you're making here, but I thought Age of Decadence had a lot of support on the Codex. The Codex isn't very big in the larger scheme of the things though.

It had a lot of lip service support, and does even now. I don't think, however, that the bulk of the Codex actually bought Age of Decadence. But yeah, I was not just talking about the Codex; it applies to the whole of the "old school" camp.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2015
Messages
1,020
Word of mouth is a symptom, not a cause.

Most indie games are brought up on popular social forums around the time of their release. The issue is that no one gives a fuck.
I'm talking about the reaction, not it being the cause of it.

Game that has either decent gameplay or a novel game mechanic is found, by some random loser that had no expectations of the game on a forum/board.
Other users agree with the loser, again the key part here is no expecations and have in depth discussion about it, and start praising it.
Users start making OC about the game and begin to hype it further.
Some of the OC is very autistic but it doesn't matter at this point, that comes later.
Other user start to notice the ruckus about game and try expecting to live up to the hype.
It obviously doesn't.
Now both sides butt heads over taste.
At this point people notice the autistic OC that was made and use it against the game and fanbase.
Eventually people stop talking about the game due flame wars and nothing really more to talk about the game.

That's the normal cycle Flavor of the month game. If it extends further it becomes like touhou or MLP shit, annoying, cancerous, autistic, and a neverending cash cow. You know the games I'm talking about.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
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Messages
7,817
It had a lot of lip service support, and does even now. I don't think, however, that the bulk of the Codex actually bought Age of Decadence.

No, people bought it.

X0wEZfb.png
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,687
In this respect, it is necessary to examine what made Undertale and similar indie games so successful, as there's no "AAA"/"publisher" argument to fall back on.

I thought we had settled in "tumblr/hipster hype"??
More like Flavor of the Month hype times 100, seen it tons of times back on 4chan and it's cycle is very similar to what is happening now.


Underrail
Arcanum
Serpent in the Staglands
Lords of Xulima
Dead State

What is common with all the indie titles on this list is that they sold under 100,000 copies. As for Arcanum, it sold 234,000 copies, which is still terrible for a big-time developer but does show the effects of publisher support and developer fame.

But is this the fate of all turn-based Western RPGs in today's industry? Not exactly.

Shadowrun Returns: ~870,000 copies
Wasteland 2: ~500,000 copies
Banner Saga: ~550,000 copies

What is common with all of the above, in contrast to the previous list? The answer is name recognition. Shadowrun Returns had Jordan Weisman, creator of Shadowrun. Wasteland 2 was, of course, Brian Fargo with many members of the old Wasteland team. Banner Saga was former Bioware developers. You could also add Pillars of Eternity to this list of successes though, of course, it's RtWP not turn-based.

What all this shows is that "niche" gaming exists, but that it revolves around established persons and franchises. One could call it the "soccer dad" effect, but I've no demographics data to back that up. Regardless, the effect is the same - developer/franchise loyalty creates a group of dedicated buyers and helps with marketing, which in turn allows the games to sell hundreds of thousands of copies and secure millions in Kickstarter backing.

I dunno. I think the common theme with the clunkers is that they all look aesthetically unappealing from a marketing point of view. There's something to be said about images vs. videos vs. actually playing a game, too. For example, I think Wasteland 2 looks half-decent in images, but looks like total ass when played. I thought The Long Dark looked bad in images, but it's instant immersion when you see it in motion. Underrail, Arcanum, Serpents et al look like mud your average gawker. They all use a lot of text and, quite fucking bizarrely, all their text is really goddam hard to read. That doesn't do any of them favors. Now someone could say that Undertale looks stupid, but it's aesthetically not. It looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests - quirky, nostalgic. The text is terse and in huge font.

Consumers are graphics whores at heart and sometimes I am one too, and I usually turn shadows off in all my games. But when I say graphics whores, I don't mean maximum AA or pixels or whatever. I mean the game needs to look uniquely endearing and like it fits the gameplay. A lot of games just have this "Well, here's the engine we're using as a vehicle to drive the gameplay" look to them, but I just don't think that works anymore. Not if you're a top-down game doing a genre that's been around for decades. It might work for this new-age "survival" stuff (all those games look like total dogshit to me), but it doesn't work for this subset that's been seen and done already. 100% unfair, but it's just what I'm observing on Steam these days.

A lot of the 3D games also have this sorta generic look to them. Maybe it's just me, but I get a weird vibe from these games like I've been seeing the same 3D models over and over for years now. Example:

270464-brave_005.jpg

^ 1999, people. (Game is Braveheart for those that want to know.)


What's more, I think a lot of these games don't know the first thing about interfaces or how to make the basics look good. Check the battlegrounds in these two pictures, both of which are used as Steam previews:

ss_e6d7b2ddf5561774fbc78bdb6397ba970fa1461a.jpg


ss_2c8f646531be1854a02db4e28b7d1b1e2f75df5d.jpg


First off, showing this at all is poor marketing. One of the drawbacks of turn-based games is that their actual interfaces are aesthetically unappealing to most people. It's just very hard to make it look natural. So what do devs do? They hide it. Unless your appearance is A-grade, it's got no business being shown to your average consumer. Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason. (Before you get on my nuts about the expectations of the assumed audience, take into account that you want to sell outside your base consumer and also that even hardcore wargames like those Battlefront sell are still largely presented to the consumer wholly absent of their interfaces. The inside flap of Talon Soft's West Front, IIRC, was a huge splash image of Omaha Beach. Again, I do believe that was missing an interface as well.)

Second, Jesus Christ the design.

Why do we have bright blue and red squares poorly plastered over a more grim-colored 3D background? It shares ZERO resemblance to the overall aesthetic design, giving each image a very jarring, out of place look. Every police department understands the conjuctive purpose of these two colors, but apparently that's flown over the heads of whoever designed these two setups. This looks like something you'd see in an alpha, a placeholder of sorts. And then there is the actual design of coloring in the blocks. You take a 3D engine and carpet its floor with a transparent MSPaint look.

This might sound like pointless nagging, but I'm just using it as one example of something that matters to people even if they aren't aware of it. These images immediately tell me I'm looking at amateur stuff. I know I'm not. I know AoD is a well-designed game and I know some people think Dead State is. But I'm not the average consumer, so what is this doing here if your objective is to move product? You're already fighting an uphill battle by going with a merely "passing" aesthetic and jumping into a genre with a small-audience, why do even more harm?

I could talk about this shit forever, and it's just my opinion, but basically I think your typical Steam buyer is making on-the-fly purchases largely based on initial impressions of images and ratings. The average buyer seems to be very impulsive, mind you, and owns a lot of games he wouldn't ordinarily buy if it weren't for constant sales. These games just don't seem to want to take advantage of that.
 

Seethe

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
967
Or this FPS/RTS, which is made entirely by one person.

 
Last edited:

Eyestabber

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Ah, I see this thread took a turn for the better. Simply because several bros decided to derail it and discuss actual games instead. I absolutely love AoD, but I get sser's point. His own game seems to follow this ideal:

2016_01_05_00001.jpg


As you can see, it's not about AAA production values. It's about having a presentation that matches what the game is all about and also happens to look pretty unique. BB has been presented as a "board game-like turn-based strategy RPG" and when I look at the screenshot above, this is EXACTLY what I see. Not only that, but the "look" is also pretty unique. They managed to distance themselves from the "generic strategy game" looks. This happens mostly because that Paul guy is incredibly talented AND because the devs actively searched for an art style that fits the game's theme while also staying within small studio budget constraints.

And the game also brings its own twist, ofc. I mean, when was the last time you encountered goblins that were nothing short of nightmarish machines of doom and rage? :incline:
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,687
These images immediately tell me I'm looking at amateur stuff

As opposed to such wonderful graphics like this:
[Undertale images] ?

Read a little more closely:

I was talking about the interface and how something seemingly benign can make a game look bad. I place a lot of importance on interface, though, as I honestly think it's the core of success for a number of games, notably anything by Sid Meier.

And I would not disagree that Undertale looks amateur because it is. However, that is the point. Its appearance is consistent with its gameplay, and its gameplay seems to feed off of its wonky appearance. That's the difference between Undertale's shortcomings and say, Dead State, which alludes to grim and drab seriousness then mannequins its corpses everywhere before splash painting your entire screen with garish cop-in-rear-view-mirror colors.
 

Rivmusique

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Kangarooland
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yeah, but do those games have dialogues that reminds me of how me and my friends talk on *favourite imageboard/social media site*? Or jokes inspired by/referencing the most popular image macros? Do they even try to validate me?

No? How about characters? Are they constantly kind/playful and making it clear all they want from anybody, especially me, is love? NO?! How can anything be likeable then?

And the gameplay looks like there's a chance of a brand new player not instantly knowing what they need to do to win in most situations. They probably have a bunch of tactics/abilities that you may need to see an enemy/AI-ally use before you realise, with the aid of feedback/a manual, how effective they can be. Like some unintuitive, inaccessible garbage from BCE. Devs can't seriously expect people to keep playing their games when they keep failing simply because there's too many abilities and inputs to keep track of.

Utter shite.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
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Messages
7,817
As you can see, it's not about AAA production values. It's about having a presentation that matches what the game is all about and also happens to look pretty unique. BB has been presented as a "board game-like turn-based strategy RPG" and when I look at the screenshot above, this is EXACTLY what I see. Not only that, but the "look" is also pretty unique. They managed to distance themselves from the "generic strategy game" looks. This happens mostly because that Paul guy is incredibly talented AND because the devs actively searched for an art style that fits the game's theme while also staying within small studio budget constraints.

Owners: 14,319
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
As you can see, it's not about AAA production values. It's about having a presentation that matches what the game is all about and also happens to look pretty unique. BB has been presented as a "board game-like turn-based strategy RPG" and when I look at the screenshot above, this is EXACTLY what I see. Not only that, but the "look" is also pretty unique. They managed to distance themselves from the "generic strategy game" looks. This happens mostly because that Paul guy is incredibly talented AND because the devs actively searched for an art style that fits the game's theme while also staying within small studio budget constraints.

Owners: 14,319

More than enough for the developers to quit their day jobs and work on the game full-time. You would know that if you bothered to read the thread.

But that thread doesn't have "clever trope subversion", right? ;)
 

Higher Game

Arcane
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
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Female Vagina
Lol this battle brothers shit looks way worse than AoD. Even Battle for Wesnoth looks better.

Battle-For-Wesnoth-HD.jpg


Actually, it looks MUCH better. Looks great even.

The Wesnoth community has the most CONDUCTOR PROBLEMS of any RPG community. You can tell them THE TRAIN IS FINE and they won't care. There is a demand for new strategy games just to stay ahead of the curve and get away from the beep boops. With enough luck they get stuck on their favorite micromanagement simulator and don't find out about the latest one that normal people enjoy.
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus II

Unwanted
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy
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Rio de Janeiro, Cidade Desespero
I don't understand what you are talking about. Just to be clear, I was never a part of the Wesnoth commonity apart from playing multiplayer with my gf and brothers or completing a handful of campaigns.
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
First off, showing this at all is poor marketing. One of the drawbacks of turn-based games is that their actual interfaces are aesthetically unappealing to most people. It's just very hard to make it look natural. So what do devs do? They hide it. Unless your appearance is A-grade, it's got no business being shown to your average consumer. Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason. (Before you get on my nuts about the expectations of the assumed audience, take into account that you want to sell outside your base consumer and also that even hardcore wargames like those Battlefront sell are still largely presented to the consumer wholly absent of their interfaces. The inside flap of Talon Soft's West Front, IIRC, was a huge splash image of Omaha Beach. Again, I do believe that was missing an interface as well.)


I would never ever buy a game without seeing it's UI or screens how it really plays and looks in-game ,and am greatly annoyed if game's steam page does not have any.
 

hivemind

Guest
Steam refunds are literally another shoah.
 

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