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Avernum: Escape from the Pit

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
447
:troll:
 

Kruno

Arcane
Patron
Village Idiot Zionist Agent Shitposter
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Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,478
Ok, the quest compass is beyond retarded. You get a quest like, "find Anastasia", the quest giver has no clue where she is and asks you to find out. So how do I locate her? Press "w" to bring forth the world map, which now has marked the "find Anastasia" quest on the relevant spot on the map - which obviously isn't the town where the quest giver is, but the compass gives you metagame info on which town Anastasia is in! WTF

Why are you using the map? Pencil + Grid paper = real hardcore gamer. Looking for something? Search manually.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Ok, the quest compass is beyond retarded. You get a quest like, "find Anastasia", the quest giver has no clue where she is and asks you to find out. So how do I locate her? Press "w" to bring forth the world map, which now has marked the "find Anastasia" quest on the relevant spot on the map - which obviously isn't the town where the quest giver is, but the compass gives you metagame info on which town Anastasia is in! WTF

Yeah, noticed that too. I think that it's more of a bug though. Remember that Jeff kinda 'ported' the game to a new engine, stuff like this is likely an oversight on his part.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
Played some more, almost all of the (short) demo. Combat on low levels seems just bad, no improvement on the original. Healing spells are as crucial as ever in Spiderweb games, if you can keep your whole party alive for a turn, while still getting a non-healing action off, you probably can beat the fight eventually. The problematic thing is that the tougher monsters often can 1-hit kill your party members, leaving you no chance to heal them back to full on your turn. The normal enemies that accompany these tougher monsters, do shit for damage, to the point they are only a threat if accompanied by a tough monster like a Fierce Rat (several weak enemies chip away your hp so slowly it only matters at all if something big took you to near 0 hp), and in those situations you use the daze spell to immobilize them so you only have to deal with the big monster who resists that spell. The biggest question when approaching a new enemy is, can they 1-hit kill my tank, and if not, are they able to hit someone else? If not, you can probably win with enough chipping on their health and healing the done damage.

Also the combat animations take too much time, they're short but you wade through so many trash mobs that it gets annoying, the earlier iterations of the game were faster to play I feel.

And the way attributes work, that each character is pretty much forced to focus on 1 attribute only if they wish to hit enemies (STR for melee, DEX for ranged, INT for spells), plus some endurance to stay alive, is just boring. And doesn't really encourage making anything but 1-dimensional characters, though it's still somewhat possible. Priest as a frontline tank, while taking damage and casting spells, seems really nice for example.
Trying out a new kind of party is also tedious, since you only get a handful of points upon start, compared to how you could have properly fleshed out guys right off the bat in the earlier games. Now you have to play and get several levels until you can properly define a character.

Oh and you can steal stuff in plain sight and be seen, people won't care at all unless you take too many items, before that you can keep your findings :D This I actually enjoyed though, since hey, I got better stuff.


But, looking at the descriptions of the higher level spells and battle disclipines, it'll probably get better (unlike in 1st Avernum trilogy, where combat got worse in high levels to me since it just got too easy). A lot more stuff that relies on positioning, knockbacks, status effects, etc. But first I'd need to get there...


Then count in quest compass, and secret passages are done in a boring way now (pressing hard to notice buttons instead of casting far sight and walking upon walls everywhere), It's not a real improvement over Exile 1 or Avernum 1.


So my verdict is - (re)play a Geneforge game instead
 

Angelo85

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Apr 4, 2010
Messages
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Deutschland
His Demos are short now as well? For the past titles the Demos were quite long - another tradeoff thanks to the short attention spans of portable device gamers?
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
I think he said on his blog sometime (probably when he dissed the 'dex there) that too big demos are not good for business, because if it's too long people will be satisfied (bored?) by the game already when they complete that and won't be yearning to pay for more of the same anymore. Or something like that.

Then again he also said that "demos are always boring" in said debacle.
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
447
Also the combat animations take too much time, they're short but you wade through so many trash mobs that it gets annoying, the earlier iterations of the game were faster to play I feel.
This has been annoying me since G5/A5 especially when those damn poison/acid animations run at the start of every damn turn
Then count in quest compass, and secret passages are done in a boring way now (pressing hard to notice buttons instead of casting far sight and walking upon walls everywhere), It's not a real improvement over Exile 1 or Avernum 1.
Hit the "U" key to see all doors, chests and secret switches :troll:
So my verdict is - (re)play a Geneforge game instead
Agreed
 

Morkar Left

Guest
If you consider BG a storyfag game (minus the party banter) you can get it.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
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Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
I've been playing Avernum the last couple of weeks, I'm close to finishing it now, and I've been enjoying it immensely. One of the best exploration-based games I've played. Huge world filled with secrets and paths. TB combat and character progression is a tad simplistic, but you can fully customize all your characters the way you want them (classless system). Party size could be bigger. The writing was surprisingly decent, it nails the setting and gives you that warm feeling of a good old crpg. Generally the whole game feels like a love letter to ultima/gold-box/DarkSun games. Loot is hand-placed and well-placed. At the end of an intricate dungeon, after a hard fight you're gonna find a nice magic item and that feels damn good, all these recent crpgs with completely shit randomized loot should take note.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
I've been playing Avernum the last couple of weeks, I'm close to finishing it now, and I've been enjoying it immensely. One of the best exploration-based games I've played. Huge world filled with secrets and paths. TB combat and character progression is a tad simplistic, but you can fully customize all your characters the way you want them (classless system). Party size could be bigger. The writing was surprisingly decent, it nails the setting and gives you that warm feeling of a good old crpg. Generally the whole game feels like a love letter to ultima/gold-box/DarkSun games. Loot is hand-placed and well-placed. At the end of an intricate dungeon, after a hard fight you're gonna find a nice magic item and that feels damn good, all these recent crpgs with completely shit randomized loot should take note.

This is good to hear, although a little bit of random loot might be niCE... if only because grognard min/maxer forumites st Spiderweb rule out all but a few skill trees based in part on items that are available in the game. Of course, if you do a 100% naive go through you should ignore that shit... but still it bugs me. Its like friggin knife throwing skill and pistols in WL1. Can't help but feel like there is some bad design there...
 

ghostdog

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Messages
11,079
This is good to hear, although a little bit of random loot might be niCE... if only because grognard min/maxer forumites st Spiderweb rule out all but a few skill trees based in part on items that are available in the game. Of course, if you do a 100% naive go through you should ignore that shit... but still it bugs me. Its like friggin knife throwing skill and pistols in WL1. Can't help but feel like there is some bad design there...
Yeah, it's not the most balanced system definitely, but unless you're playing on Torment difficulty or something, you'll be fine through the game, unless you make really stupid decisions. I don't think you can really exclude skills trees because of items, only maybe save a couple points in some tree if you go full meta. If you read the manual/help of the game and understand the basics, you can plot a p.good party, without knowing min/maxing tricks. Some mechanics need to be understood for better party building, like the fact that most utility skills accumulate through the party, that skills cap at 10 with the exception of the basic skills (melee,magic,etc), that you can buy 2 additional skill points from trainers for almost all skills at any point, that every second level you get to choose one trait, that there's a soft level cap for your characters at lvl30 where after that you stop gaining skill points and traits, that with 10 APs you get a second attack per round, etc. The only really annoyingly useless skill I found is thrown weapons, mainly because you need to buy the ammo and it adds weight to your char, thankfully that char was a magic user so he didn't really need to worry about the additional weaponry. I think that the game in all aspects is more-or-less p.good, but it especially shines in the exploration department. There is a gazillion of well placed hidden caves, ancient dungeons, secret doors and places that in order to reach you need yo use boats or even more exotic means.

For better enjoyment I would advise to have at least one dedicated priest and one magic user in your party, but that's common sense. Also it's good if you plan your skills so that eventually you'll get about 10 accumulated points in cave lore, arcane lore and tool use accordingly. Also buy only things you absolutely need from the vendors and sell everything you don't need, almost all your money should be used for buying skills and they are p.expensive. There hasn't been a point in the game where I've been carrying around a lot of money.
 
Last edited:

Dead Guy

Cipher
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
I guess I must've played with the Remix 1.1 mod or something, not sure where I got that recommendation because I doubt I would've otherwise. Either way, with that mod you get infinite stacks of throwing weapons just like arrows for bows in vanilla. It didn't bork the game balance completely either, cue shock and surprise. I think it made sword and board viable compared to vanilla as well, from what I read dual wielding was pretty much far and away the best option for melee fighters without the mod.

It's a pretty enjoyable game despite the fairly basic combat and character systems, lots of exploration, some fun spells and some challenging encounters. Lots of potential to wander into fights you're nowhere near prepared to deal with yet, and vice versa if you happen to do things in the 'wrong' order successfully.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
Fuck yeah

opClg9X.jpg


That was by far the hardest fight so far. I'm playing on "hard" and while I was always able to kill Grah-hoth the accumulating waves of his minions kicked my ass eventually. It needed precise timing and knowledge because a lot of these enemies where first seen and had many immunities. Winning that fight really felt good.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Have played the earlier Avernum version on GOG and recently started playing the re skinned version (aka Escape from the Pit). Initial impressions after a few hours of gameplay:

-Economy was tweaked. I'm an RPG hoarder and will keep everything that's sellable. Some items that could be sold are basically not sellable anymore. Kind of a con as well as a pro as it provides balance but takes some of the freedom away.

-Combat on hard seems a bit more balanced. Along with a better economy it makes it more challenging until you get those skill level ups from the NPCs. Plus, the actual combat grid makes it more visually appealing

-Not being able to close doors makes it next to impossible to steal stuff. Which kills some of the cool aspects of the old Avernum

-Journal and minimap is much improved

-Junk bag is a stupid mechanic. You mean I can't just drop stuff?? WTF...

-Presentation is a huge improvement; although the sprite animation is a tad faster than the old version

-Interesting tweaks to the beginning of the game. Like the new version's starting area more than the original


So far I'm enjoying this new reskinned version more than the old Avernum. It's got some tweaks to the UI and gameplay that are actually worse than the original, but for the most part it's a net positive. Will probably finish the game this time (quit after being bored 3/4 of the way with the old GOG version). Well worth the $7 or so I paid at the App Store.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
So I downloaded the Avernum demo to spice up my life after burning out on what I was recently playing. Avernum seems to be a pretty huge game. Can anyone give me a rough estimation of the average playing time? In some video I saw a guy said something like 70 up to 130 hrs, is that an exaggeration or is it really that big?
 

Mustawd

Guest
It's pretty big. Never finished the new Avernum (or the old one for that matter), but the old one was around 100 hours if you did everything. I was around 80 hours with 3/4 of the way through.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
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Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
100h is a good estimate for a first playthrough. If you like exploration focused rpgs, go for it. Avernum is more or less good in all areas, but it excels in the exploration aspect. I played the enhanced edition (or whatever it's called) some months ago and had a blast.
 

Elwro

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Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
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Location
Krakow, Poland
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I played and finished the original and I think it could've been close to 100 hours. Exploration in this game is fantastic, there are quite a few ways to get to some places... and the order of dealing with the Important Stuff is also up to you.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Yeah, the demo has already been quite gripping. Not only the exploration but I enjoy the setting and atmosphere quite a lot as well. I guess since the game is huge it justifies the ten bucks to get the full version, even though the Spiderweb stuff will probably be on sale again sometime soon. I only wish together with the games I buy I could also buy all the time I need to actually play them. I guess I now know what I'll do for the rest of the summer.. and probably autumn..
 

Scroo

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Codex 2014 Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
It took me 70 hours according to steam. I did everything and explored everything without any prior experience of avernum games (played the remake).

And honestly I enjoyed every single hour of it, as you say the atmosphere is incredible. Sure, the combat system might be simplistic but the rest totally makes up for it :)
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
I've so far played 64 hours and think I'm somewhere between late mid- and early end-game.
The game certainly has a lot to offer in terms of exploration, content and player freedom, but for me personally it lacks a certain something.
It's good for what it is, but I also get bored if I play it extensively over longer periods.
 

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