Avernum: Escape from the Pit

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I never managed to finish the Exile demo.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

http://www.avernum.com/avernum/index.html

... for OS X, that is.

Has anyone got a Mac to try this out? I'm eager to see whether or not the depth of the skills system has been preserved.

Also the early Avernums got pretty repetitive combat-wise, and lately Vogel has started designing some more interesting combat encounters. And he did keep the overworld map.

I'm still torn. I really loved Nethergate and the engine of that game, so I'm torn between playing the old trilogy or waiting for the new iterations.

 

[Angelo85]

Regarding skills:

this has become this.

Can't speak about the rest and won't be able to because I'm not planing on buying into this dumbed down money grabbing scheme.
Unless I hear really good things about it from my resident Bros I won't even bother playing an extended Demo.

/e: but if you haven't played Avernum I, you might as well try this version. Both titles are essentially the same (except the skill stuff). Both games feature the same story, but the newest version has some added quests and updated graphics.

 

[hakuroshi]

I'll sooner replay Exile.

 

[Stabwound]

Regarding skills:

this has become this.

Can't speak about the rest and won't be able to because I'm not planing on buying into this dumbed down money grabbing scheme.
Unless I hear really good things about it from my resident Bros I won't even bother playing an extended Demo.

/e: but if you haven't played Avernum I, you might as well try this version. Both titles are essentially the same (except the skill stuff). Both games feature the same story, but the newest version has some added quests and updated graphics.

While I agree that it's a money-grabbing scheme, I'm not sure I understand what you're going for with those screenshots. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it shows 14 combat-related skills in the "new" shot and 7 in the "old" shot. We can't see the magic tree or traits screen at all in the "new" version.

 

[Angelo85]

The short form: there were 'hidden' skills that get unlocked after acquiring the right amount of basic skills. These 'hidden' skills could also be levelled. And you had a choice which skills to level up.
With the skill tree you basically are limited to two or three choices and there's not as much diversity in character builds possible.

 

[Johannes]

There were more combat skills in Avernum 1 too, but they were hidden at game start. Reading this at their forum shows that there's about the same amount of skills overall but they are apparently arranged in a tree that limits you from raising skills above the one below it on the tree (kinda like magic schools in Nethergate if I understand correctly), instead of the Avernum way of each skill just rising in further cost the higher it is. While in Exile a skills cost was static so you just endlessly pumped the good ones while ignoring the bad ones, in Avernum you pumped the similar skills in a ratio that you thought gives you most benefit.

Actually this seems the most sensible out of the 3 systems, since it forces/allows you to specialize characters (pick which trees to specialise on) more instead of being just either well built or badly built warriors or mages.
At least if I presume how it works correctly, and is somewhat decently balanced.

Earlier Avernums/Exiles might've been enjoyable games overall but the combat and character systems were really straightforward to use once you knew them decently.

Hopefully the new game will also have less effective healing spells than the earlier iterations. And otherwise more interesting stuff too, than just hitting/fireballing your enemies to death while constantly healing. Geneforge 5 was already better but heal was still annoyingly powerful, made for drawn out fights.

 

[Mortmal]

If you played exile or avernum already, except for the fancy next gen graphics, is there any point to get it ?

 

[taxalot]

I am wondering if I should buy an Apple computer so that I can buy the new Jeff Vogel game. Would you think it's okay?

Does Facebook work on an Apple Computer ?

 

[Johannes]

Hmmm is there a web browser on OS X...

 

[flushfire]

Actually this seems the most sensible out of the 3 systems, since it forces/allows you to specialize characters (pick which trees to specialise on) more instead of being just either well built or badly built warriors or mages.
At least if I presume how it works correctly, and is somewhat decently balanced.

I never played Nethergate, but the skill trees look very similar to Avadon's which I did play. The trees are very limiting there, with each class basically having 2 builds, 1 if you're familiar enough with the game to optimize. Personally I like the skill system of the older games better, but I understand that his new target audience demands one that is more linear.

 

[Johannes]

I read up a bit about the system on Spiderwebs forums and now I feel it probably isn't as good as I hoped for. If you're encouraged to just pick skills from 1 or 2 trees, then that might be boring.

Doesn't matter though, depends more on the balancing of different spells and abilities, and encounter design, if the combat will be interesting.

But I really don't miss the old Avernum 1-3 system though. Basically there was so few actual choices compared to the number of skills it was stupid. Like balancing between putting points in Strength, Polearms, or Blademaster, there's a certain ratio that will give you most damage output, and if you don't follow that ratio you will simply be a bit worse at killing stuff.
To me it feels there's kinda 4 paths, to exeggarate a bit - mage spells, priest spells, hitting stuff, resisting/avoiding hits. You could balance between those a bit, but in combat you just hit stuff and heal ad nauseam.

I remember clearing most of the final areas in Avernum 3 for example, with a single slith warrior while rest of my squad was sitting in the back and periodically casting invulnerability on him. Was boring and easy but at least fast.

 

[Grim Monk]

For those interested...

Here you can see the old Character skills page:
http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/Avernum/Character.gif

And here is part of the new Character skills page:
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/avernum/av ... umpit5.jpg


What I want to know is: Will people still be able to buy the "Original Avernum" games...

 

[visions]

For those interested...

Here you can see the old Character skills page:
http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/Avernum/Character.gif

And here is part of the new Character skills page:
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/avernum/av ... umpit5.jpg


What I want to know is: Will people still be able to buy the "Original Avernum" games...

Probably. I mean, you can still buy the Exiles or the old version of Nethergate.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I started a topic on the Spiderweb forums. Let's see if we're going to get some real answers to these important concerns.

 

[Angelo85]

The last time I posted over there I nearly got banned (would have been my first Internet ban. The Codex is clearly working it's magic on me!)
I was complaining about the *decline* and especially the pricing fuck over with Steam like a good bro should and told them - in a roundabout way - out of protest I will henceforth not buy any more games and, if anything at all, play extended Demos.

Yeah suck on that Jeff. You lost a loyal customer because of bad business decisions. But then again my place has probably already been taken by 10 if not 100 ADHD Iphone/Steam kiddies.
So all in all good business decision? Touché Jeff, touché.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I wouldn't be surprised if I was banned just for quoting the Bible in my signature, one of the many aspie liberals with a Mac that seem to populate the place is probably going to be offended by it.

Also, is it just me or most of the regulars on the forum have a very high post count and have been there for a really long time? This is not meant to be a slight or anything (if anyone from there is reading), but the regulars look incredibly invested in Spiderweb Software and it seems they play all the Spiderweb games ever. It even seems like many of them complete all the games with just one character.

It seems like they will defend any decision Spiderweb does no matter what.

Most people when Jeff released his games on the cheap on Steam were like "hurray, I can buy them again to support Spiderweb even more!". I didn't feel that cheated, but releasing all of Geneforge for 10$ when they've been 25$ a piece for ages... I don't know...

 

[visions]

Game/developer specific forums seem to be populated mostly by fanboys (or girls, in bioware's case). Not very surprising.

 

[Fowyr]

I'll sooner replay Exile.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Game/developer specific forums seem to be populated mostly by fanboys (or girls, in bioware's case). Not very surprising.

The dynamic is a little different between Spiderweb forums and Bioware forums.

On forums for popular games, there is usually a sea of casual fanboys posting, plus a few heavily invested veteran fanboys.

But on Vogel's forums there are less casual fanboys (because not that many people like his games), so a surprisingly high percentage of posts are from the heavily invested veteran fanboys who somehow have 10,000 to 20,000 Spiderweb posts and who have often taken the time to solo the games on the highest difficulty.

It means the forums are somewhat of an echo chamber and discussing the decline of Vogel there is pretty pointless, except on certain select topics where the veterans acknowledge the decline. On the other hand, they're pretty helpful and questions about game mechanics tend to get expert answers pretty quickly.

 

[betamin]

This thread has inspired me to play Avernum 6 for the first time and doing it solo, its pretty cool since now you have to actually put some thought in what you do instead of auto piloting like in most of his games.

 

[JudasIscariot]

At least according to this article:

http://www.diygamer.com/2012/04/indie-game-releases-of-april-2012/

Has anyone tried out the remake? I heard rumours that he used some of the combat mechanics found in Avadon (cooldowns) which would make this game a no-go for me.

I am not expecting any miracles here but I do like Vogel's games because they run quite well on this POS netbook of mine.

Edit: Forgot to specify that this concerns the Windows release only.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Can't wait, will post impressions.

Oh, he actually released it on Ipad before the Windows version? Apple zealot through and through.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/avernum-escape-from-the-pit-hd/id499730787?mt=8

 

[sea]

Someone's competing with Grimrock. Prediction? Vogel loses.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Vogel has his fanbase of Asperger's fans on his forum who worship anything he puts out, create fan art and fan fiction, and complete all of his games with one-man parties. He needs not worry at all.