Avernum: Escape from the Pit

[TripJack]

but when will we get the remake of this remake

 

[Excidium]

Come to think of it, imagine Might and Magic re-done with modern graphics. Why wouldn't it sell a shit ton as it already is quite a simple RPG in terms of mechanics(certainly not more complicated than DA:O), which is what the masses would like but are turned off by the graphics?

That wouldn't ever sell. Exploration is the fun aspect of M&M, and that's something modern RPG players don't give a shit. Like MCA said in that podcast, they just want to be handheld through the cutscene triggers.

 

[visions]

The Elder Scrolls sell, so I'm not sure whether exploration would necessarily be a problem in itself. The blob aspect would probably be more off-putting, breaking their immersion or something. Then again, free world without level-scaling might be off-putting as well, people would probably rage for getting their level 10 party constantly killed in Dragonsand desert, totally not fair, bros.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Feeling pretty good about the decision I made long ago to never give Vogel any money.

I really hate remakes where they re-do the graphics, gameplay and maps.

At that point why not just make a new game? It can't be hard to make up a new terrible RPG story.

Oh right, effort, and the lowered expectations that come with remake status.

 

[7hm]

I understand why he's doing it, and I don't really have a problem with it. The story / quests got bigger between Exile > Avernum, which isn't something I'm going to complain about in an RPG series.

THAT BEING SAID

The gameplay got worse. And it's not trending well with Avadon.

So ... Exile graphics / "streamlined gameplay" turns into Avernum graphics / Avernum gameplay turns into these graphics / Exile gameplay. That's something I can get behind. But reversing the gameplay quality as the remakes occur? Not so much.

 

[ElectricOtter]

Man, this looks pretty awesome. New portraits, overworld map, new art, better UI...

No. The game system has been heavily revised. It's a mix of Avernum 6 and Avadon: The Black Fortress. It is still entirely skill-based and most of the skills are the same. However, the way you train has changed. Instead of saving up skill points, each level you get to increase two skills. You will make the same number of choices to shape your character, but you will be making more of them later in the game and fewer of them earlier. We are also taking pains to make it much more difficult to create a party that is too weak to progress through the game.

The Traits system has been massively reworked. Instead of picking two traits at the beginning of the game, you can select one new beneficial trait every two levels. A lot of these traits give simple bonuses, while others (like Backstab and Swordmage) can dramatically change the way you play the game

FUUUCK YOOOU JEFF








fucking shit

 

[OSK]

And you're still limited to four party members? Come on.

I too was hoping for Exile gameplay.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS MIGHT AND MAGIC IS UNCHANGABLE IN MANY WAYS TO KEEP THE VIBE IT HAD

AT LEAST FROM WHAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED GOING BACK AND FORTH FROM NEW SHIT TO OLD STUFF I SEE NOT MUCH TO IMPROVE FROM MIGHT AND MAGIC THAT WOULD KILL ITS CHARM

I AM TALKING THREE THROUGH FIVE HERE I PLAYED TWO FOREVER AGO AND NOTHING AFTER FIVE

I THINK IT COULD BE IMPROVED WITH NIFTY 2D GRAPHICS AND MAYBE SOME MORE RECOGNITION OF CHANGES THROUGH THE GAME WORL BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT

 

[Excidium]

I only played 3-5 too, so I don't know if it got improved on the later games but two main points where Might and Magic could be much better are combat and character development.

 

[Marobug]

Looks like dogshit.
I'm yet to understand why people label his games as "old-school". Perhaps because of the pre-1995 grade graphics ?

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO EXIDIUM I DISAGREE

THE REPLACEABILITY OF CHARACTERS WAS COOL BY ME I GUESS IT REMINDED ME OF SHIT LIKE PHANTASY 3 WHERE I WOULD HAVE TO THROW AWAY ALMOST A WHOLE PARTY WORTH OF CHARACTERS BEFORE I LEVELED A COPKLE UP ENOUGH TO CARRY A PARTY

I ENJOY GAMES WHERE NEW PARTY MEMBERS AND SOMETIMES NOT SO NEW CAN BE DISPOSABLE MM2 WAS COOL FOR HAVING THE SINGLE CLASS QUESTS AND ALTHOGH MY MEMORY IS HAZY I REMEMBER STRINGING ALONG A COUPLE FIRST LEVEL PALADINS WITH AN EXPERIENCED PARTY TO GET THEM USUABLE

AS FAR AS COMBAT BRO MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT BUT AGAIN I THINK THAT STYLE WAS FUN FOR THE GAME MORE STRATEGIC AND INVOLVED COMBAT WOULD MAKE IT MORE ANNOYING TO PERMANENTLY LOSE SOME BROS

I GUESS IT IS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE FOR ME MIGHT AND MAGICS HAVE SOME NOSTALGIA VALUE

 

[Excidium]

Yeah I understand.

 

[Fowyr]

it's not about what I like - it's about what will sell. UU is a great game but badly needs a graphics and interface overhaul. music isnt that bad even now.

modern players would expect more hints and a real time minimap i suspect.

This is slippery slope. Do average gamer is retard? Yes, just look at Oblivion/CoD/nameyourgame sales. Should we cater to them? No.

First realtime minimap, then removal turn-based combat from JA2 remake.

 

[syllopsium]

it's not about what I like - it's about what will sell. UU is a great game but badly needs a graphics and interface overhaul. music isnt that bad even now.

modern players would expect more hints and a real time minimap i suspect.

This is slippery slope. Do average gamer is retard? Yes, just look at Oblivion/CoD/nameyourgame sales. Should we cater to them? No.

First realtime minimap, then removal turn-based combat from JA2 remake.

Oblivion tried to fix some of the more tedious RPG issues - they didnt always succeed but atleast they tried.

The best that can be hoped for is that games are created/updated but have options to turn certain features on or off.

A mass market old game isn't going to target a niche in a new release. GOG.com is doing really well at conveniently supplying old games to run on new systems. Amy rerelease will have to have substantial differences.

 

[Kewlteeth]

crap.. we hoped fr a new engine or somything not avadonised avernum 6 .(
guess we hv to wait till afterlife for 6character parties and bashingz weps and food and overpowr sliths andd.. aaaawh

 

[Virtual Vice]

Anyone else really looking forward to this one?

Judging from the screenshots, it will use a mana bar that regenerates over time for casters and just fatigue points for battle disciplines pretty much like Avernum 6, so there is none of the annoyance of the more strict stamina limitations of Avadon.

The overmap travel aspect is back and it seems the game will have a scale similar to the first Avernum in terms of game world size, perhaps larger. I think if Vogel combines this scale with the better qualities and focus on detail of his later games like Avernum 6 and Geneforge 5, with the presentation of Avadon, this remake will be a great game.

I am hoping it will combine the size and freedom of travel of the first Avernum trilogy, the more elaborate and concentrated sandbox feel of Avernum 6 and all the intricate situations and challenges in terms of quests and locations of his later games in general, including character interaction. Plus he will probably make a deeper new approach to the Avernum setting in terms of characters, factions, the game world cultures and so on.

Looks like he will rework the spell system and battle disciplines of Avernum 6 and add more variety, keeping both Avadon and Avernum 6 in mind, this could be great.
There seem to be 3 skill trees now instead of the previous open point system, so this could be a minus, but I hope it will still provide more variety in terms of viable character development options than in Avadon. Seems there are more traits on the way as well, I hope this time those traits with a negative effect will actually be a reasonable choice for some characters to balance exp gains, or that he introduces traits with a mix of positive and negative aspects that are worth considering.


However I would really like to see Vogel add more clear cut, contextualized and directly connected C&C situations than those in Avernum 6, in that game almost all the relevant consequences were merely presented as a sort of rough average of which character’s or factions you more or less harmed or aided during the game, and only during the end sequence and with little detail.
Also I am not sure what he means on the project description in the website, that there are three major quest lines, and that you can do them all in a single playthrough.

 

[Angelo85]

Honestly I don't care about Spiderweb Software anymore after the Avadon sellout-fuckup.
Might acquire it if I got absolutely nothing else to play while waiting for ANY other game to come out, but nothing more.

 

[Andhaira]

It's pretty annoying how he keeps rehashing his games. Yes, I can understand why he might need to do it, but still.

I wonder how long before Geneforge is rehashed. And then Avadon. And then Avernum again.

And so on and so forth.

Anyone have any idea how much Vogel makes per new game released? Any idea of sales figures?

 

[Andhaira]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... money.html

Interesting. In his blog he also has an article from 2007 or 2008 (don't remember which) where he says he made around $111,000 from Geneforge 4, which cost around 120,000 to make.

I wonder how much eschalon made, and how much KOTC made.

 

[Virtual Vice]

if any of the Eschalon's ( especially 2) made more money than any of the later Vogel titles, including Avadon for that matter, I would be very suprised at the lack of taste of the current crowd that is willing to buy oldschool style pc rpg's with very low production values.

Then again indie or not there is always marketing and hype, but I dont see any way for the Eschalon titles to actually sell more than any of the later Spiderweb titles, or even any of the more recent spiderweb titles available at the time Eschalon book I was released for example. Vogel had/has an established reputation.
If any of the Eschalon titles actually did sell more in comparison to any of the spiderweb titles mentioned it would be pretty ironic. This because the only logical reason for that to happen in my view would be that the buyers preferred the presentaton of the Eschalon's or were drawn into buying an Eschalon title instead of a Spiderweb title of the same period because of the presentation.

Indie rpg fans buying titles based on presentation over gameplay... ironical indeed. Pretty sure that is not the case though, or else the world has gone fucking crazy in the indie scene as well.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I liked Exile more than Avernum.

 

[almondblight]

I liked Exile more than Avernum.

This. I'd only be excited if Vogel was going to fix up the Exile series to work with modern machines, and then re-release them. It seems that every time he "updates" his games he just screws them up more.

 

[Andhaira]

It's actually quite possible for the 2 Eschalon games to have outsold any 2 spiderweb games. They are very pretty. Vogels games are not. Spell effects are much better than Vogel's.

Even in the indie scene, that prettiness may make all the difference.

However, I feel Eschalon's sales would improve drastically if the dev made them fully turnbased, class based, AND party based.

 

[Haba]

Indie rpg fans buying titles based on presentation over gameplay... ironical indeed. Pretty sure that is not the case though, or else the world has gone fucking crazy in the indie scene as well.

I bought Exile 1 and 2. Haven't bought a single Spiderweb game since and won't (Nethergate was very, very close). Vogel's established reputation for me is that he makes progressively worse games.

 

[PorkaMorka]

I never paid for Vogel's games. I might have bought the Exile games, but I didn't know about them when they came out. I did play a lot of his demos though.

I don't think I will even bother with the demos of his post Avadon games, unless he de-Avadonizes future games (reverts some of the Avadon design decisions).

The character development system in Avadon was one of the least appealing I've ever seen. Once I got a decent understanding of how it worked, I quit the game in disgust.