Avadon

[IncendiaryDevice]

Also, forgot to add, for the first real missions it says you're only allowed to take two team members with you. At the start of the game this seems ok and you expect it to later get to the point where you will be able to take all 4 out with you, or at least three to make a party of four, but this never happens, you're still just a gang of three right up to the last mission, which was very disappointing for a party based RPG.

 

[the_shadow]

So far I like this one the best, though by the end Avernum 1 might still edge it out, I'll see how it goes. After the horrors of Geneforge 1 it's like a breath of fresh air IMO.

The Scarabs get shit. From strong early promise they devolved throughout the game rather than evolved. An early +1 to both Dex and Str from just one Scarab felt awesome, but later in the game, near the end, when you get one as a reward for a long-slog mission, it's just some shite spell you've already got a gazillion of from wands and scrolls. This feeds into the end-game decline heavily.

Ummm, some scarabs are quite powerful, particularly the ones which *are* spell ones, since their power can be increased with your statistics (dexterity for warrior castes, intelligence for mage casts) and certain skills (eg. any skill that increases % damage to all attacks, any skill that reduces cool down time). For example, in Avadon 3 you get a Cone of Fire scarab very early in the game. Whack that on your tinkermage, pump his Dexterity, activate Double Strike (ergo. double damage), and you'll be roasting enemies on the hardest difficulty for 200+ damage. Once you reach Avadon you get an Ice Lance scarab that also increases your missile damage by 15% (!). You also get two mass healing scarabs by mid-game, which are essential for keeping your PC's alive late game.

The merchants in the game are pretty crappy.

Aside from the merchants who offered random goods in Exile 2 and 3, the stuff you find adventuring being wayyy better than the stuff you buy in stores has been a constant theme in Jeff's games. Although to be fair, I think Avadon 3 has at least a handful of items that you want to purchase (eg. about 4 scarabs, a few enchanting stones, a few wands, and a few decent bits of equipment).

I never did work out how resistances and armour actually worked and I still have no idea if 38 Armour + 10% Evade is better or worse than 30 Armour + 25% Fire Resist. I kept by a whole load of Fire Resist gear in the expectation of facing a dragon at some point, but I never did beyond that early ridiculous quest to do 200/300 damage to one because... whatever.

Evade was OP in Avadon 1, toned down in Avadon 2, and has been nerfed in Avadon 3. Not knowing the in-game value of a particular skill or stat until you've played through most of a cRPG isn't unique to Avadon though, IMHO.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Ummm, some scarabs are quite powerful, particularly the ones which *are* spell ones, since their power can be increased with your statistics (dexterity for warrior castes, intelligence for mage casts) and certain skills (eg. any skill that increases % damage to all attacks, any skill that reduces cool down time). For example, in Avadon 3 you get a Cone of Fire scarab very early in the game. Whack that on your tinkermage, pump his Dexterity, activate Double Strike (ergo. double damage), and you'll be roasting enemies on the hardest difficulty for 200+ damage. Once you reach Avadon you get an Ice Lance scarab that also increases your missile damage by 15% (!). You also get two mass healing scarabs by mid-game, which are essential for keeping your PC's alive late game.

I think you meant pump Intelligence not dexterity, just confirming cos it's a bit confusing otherwise. I also don't recall Double Strike and, I dunno, I think I'd remember something as OP as that? Once I reach Avadon? You start the game in Avadon...? Yeah, the mass-heal ones were cool. I dunno if you're just thinking of good Scarabs from the whole game or actually replying to my point, in that their relevance and appearance and quality dips towards the end from a sprightly and promising start. You've mentioned 4 Scarabs but don't forget, the game gives you 20 slots to fill across all characters, to which most of them are meh fillers. I'm not saying good Scarabs don't exist, I'm saying their sense of interest slowly faded from high expectation and excitement to crushing disappointment - as a whole, all things considered.

Aside from the merchants who offered random goods in Exile 2 and 3, the stuff you find adventuring being wayyy better than the stuff you buy in stores has been a constant theme in Jeff's games. Although to be fair, I think Avadon 3 has at least a handful of items that you want to purchase (eg. about 4 scarabs, a few enchanting stones, a few wands, and a few decent bits of equipment).

Avernum 1 had a system whereby you had to purchase your spells as well as purchase items and even means of travel, there was a whole raft of purchases to make and reasons to keep revisiting a variety of traders beyond "bought his sword off him, now I can forget him", and there were a plethora of traders at a plethora of venues. Avadon had maybe 5 or 6 traders(?), well if more it certainly felt like that many and aside from Lockpicks and some early game impatient basic armour purchases precious little of anything of interest. A handful of items in an RPG which uses merchants as part of its system? O'com-on.

Evade was OP in Avadon 1, toned down in Avadon 2, and has been nerfed in Avadon 3. Not knowing the in-game value of a particular skill or stat until you've played through most of a cRPG isn't unique to Avadon though, IMHO.

It's not unique, but it's just as annoying as when other games do it and certainly poorer in this regard than Avernum.

 

[the_shadow]

Ummm, some scarabs are quite powerful, particularly the ones which *are* spell ones, since their power can be increased with your statistics (dexterity for warrior castes, intelligence for mage casts) and certain skills (eg. any skill that increases % damage to all attacks, any skill that reduces cool down time). For example, in Avadon 3 you get a Cone of Fire scarab very early in the game. Whack that on your tinkermage, pump his Dexterity, activate Double Strike (ergo. double damage), and you'll be roasting enemies on the hardest difficulty for 200+ damage. Once you reach Avadon you get an Ice Lance scarab that also increases your missile damage by 15% (!). You also get two mass healing scarabs by mid-game, which are essential for keeping your PC's alive late game.

I think you meant pump Intelligence not dexterity, just confirming cos it's a bit confusing otherwise.

It depends on which class you take, and which game in the series you play. Usually it's dexterity that affects scarab damage for blademaster/shadow-walker/tinkermage, and intelligence for shaman and sorcerer.

I also don't recall Double Strike and, I dunno, I think I'd remember something as OP as that? Once I reach Avadon? You start the game in Avadon...?

I was talking about Avadon 3, where you only reach Avadon about 1/3 of the way through the plot of the game. However, most of my comments about damage scarabs remain true for all the games in the series (except for Double Strike, which is a skill that only exists in A3).

Yeah, the mass-heal ones were cool. I dunno if you're just thinking of good Scarabs from the whole game or actually replying to my point, in that their relevance and appearance and quality dips towards the end from a sprightly and promising start. You've mentioned 4 Scarabs but don't forget, the game gives you 20 slots to fill across all characters, to which most of them are meh fillers. I'm not saying good Scarabs don't exist, I'm saying their sense of interest slowly faded from high expectation and excitement to crushing disappointment - as a whole, all things considered.

I always regarded the scarabs as a magical perk that allowed you to diverse your PC's a little bit more beyond class skills, not as something which gave an enormous amount of power (although some do....). I guess our expectations were different.

Avernum 1 had a system whereby you had to purchase your spells as well as purchase items and even means of travel, there was a whole raft of purchases to make and reasons to keep revisiting a variety of traders beyond "bought his sword off him, now I can forget him", and there were a plethora of traders at a plethora of venues. Avadon had maybe 5 or 6 traders(?), well if more it certainly felt like that many and aside from Lockpicks and some early game impatient basic armour purchases precious little of anything of interest. A handful of items in an RPG which uses merchants as part of its system? O'com-on.

Yeah, you could purchase spells/skills in Avernum, but I can't recall one decent item you can purchase from a merchant. And to be fair, you can purchase character 'perks' in Avadon.

Evade was OP in Avadon 1, toned down in Avadon 2, and has been nerfed in Avadon 3. Not knowing the in-game value of a particular skill or stat until you've played through most of a cRPG isn't unique to Avadon though, IMHO.

It's not unique, but it's just as annoying as when other games do it and certainly poorer in this regard than Avernum.

True.

The Avadon series is the least favourite out of Jeff's games, mainly because of its linear nature and ham-fisted story. But your criticisms strike me as being nitpicks.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Avadon 1 didn't have a tinkermage.

Also, who gives a shit about linearity. Also, I have no idea what you mean by ham fisted, is that like a food-fetishist's brofist? All RPG stories are arguably ham-fisted (except the ones I like, of course) aren't they? You'll have to be more specific.

 

[the_shadow]

Avadon 1 didn't have a tinkermage.

Yeah, OK, I assumed we were talking about Avadon 3. Attack scarabs are still pretty good in the first two, especially for sorcerers (who have a skill that provides shorter cooldowns on scarab attacks), and shadowwalkers (who have a skill that provides bonus damage to scarab attacks).

Also, who gives a shit about linearity.

One of the big appeals of Jeff's earlier games (for me at least) was the non-linearity in comparison to other RPGs. Having a big, entertaining world you can explore at your leisure can help compensate for a relatively poor main plot. If you are going to drag the player through your storyline by the nose-ring (and even make them re-visit already cleared areas to advance the story), you have to make sure the plot is pretty compelling (eg. Planescape: Torment).

All RPG stories are arguably ham-fisted (except the ones I like, of course) aren't they?

No.

 

[ilitarist]

One of the big appeals of Jeff's earlier games (for me at least) was the non-linearity in comparison to other RPGs. Having a big, entertaining world you can explore at your leisure can help compensate for a relatively poor main plot. If you are going to drag the player through your storyline by the nose-ring (and even make them re-visit already cleared areas to advance the story), you have to make sure the plot is pretty compelling (eg. Planescape: Torment).

Do you mean those were open world? I've only completed Avernum 4 and currently playing Geneforge 5. G5 is sort of non-linear even though there's a clear path that shows you all factions and you're almost required to help everyone a little, otherwise you just miss experience and money and training. Avernum Escape from the Pit is sort of open world AFAIK, same with older games?

 

[the_shadow]

One of the big appeals of Jeff's earlier games (for me at least) was the non-linearity in comparison to other RPGs. Having a big, entertaining world you can explore at your leisure can help compensate for a relatively poor main plot. If you are going to drag the player through your storyline by the nose-ring (and even make them re-visit already cleared areas to advance the story), you have to make sure the plot is pretty compelling (eg. Planescape: Torment).

Do you mean those were open world? I've only completed Avernum 4 and currently playing Geneforge 5. G5 is sort of non-linear even though there's a clear path that shows you all factions and you're almost required to help everyone a little, otherwise you just miss experience and money and training. Avernum Escape from the Pit is sort of open world AFAIK, same with older games?

Exile 1 and 3 were about as open world as Ultima 5 or Morrowind are. While you had a couple of overarching goals in each, you could pretty much go anywhere in the game world as soon as you started, and pursue your goals in any order (with a few exceptions). Exile 2 starts off linear, but the entire game world opens up once you've completed about 1/10th of the game.

Geneforge 1 and 2 are a bit less linear in the sense you *have* to clear certain zones before you can get to the end-game, although you can still pick a path, and most zones are optional (plus you have a lot of C and C with factions). Geneforge 3 is relatively linear where you have to complete a major mission on one island before progressive to the next island, and Geneforge 4 has areas organized by 'Chapter', although the story is more compelling in the latter. Geneforge 5, like you said, is middle-of-the road in regards to linearity regarding exploration, although it offers quite a bit of C and C in regards to factions.

Avernum: Escape from the Pit is a remake of Exile/Avernum, although it's a bit more linear because of zone difficulty, much like Gothic.

 

[Villagkouras]

Well, I just finished Avadon. It was ideal for my shitty computer in the office, no requirements at all + GOG release and great for small portions of time that I have spare in my work. I started playing it in September!

Anyway... I liked it, that's why I kept on playing it despite the TONS of trash combat. Some encounters were very interesting, I liked the exploration too, but the game suffers from two things:

1. The amount of trash combat.
2. The amount back and forth between areas (at least the walking speed is fairly quick)

Overall, it's a pleasant experience and I think I will continue to Avadon 2&3 (by this rate, I'll finish the trilogy in March 2017).

As for the plot, it was ok, some political/mature stuff happening here, but I have some points to raise:

About main plot endgame choice:

Spoiler

Why bother betraying Redbeard and Avadon? I mean, apart from the obvious "I want to be Keeper" bragging thing. Redbeard/Avadon may be corrupt, but the antagonists are not better. The game presents that Redbeard is corrupt and his means are cruel, but it never gives you the opportunity to engage in a directly rebel-like plot, apart from the obvious choice in the end. But by the time you get to choose, you've seen that the others are same shit as Redbeard, so no actual reason for change for me and I decided to stay with Redbeard.

What would be really cool is that the story and my choices would continue in Avadon 2 & 3, where I could find some kind of a better antagonist, but I think those games have seperate stories, you don't even use the same character, so I will see what will happen.

Also, the Heart Miranda's motivation and betrayal was a bit lazy.

But all these are points for discussion and I don't want to sound like I didn't enjoy the game. Probably I would have dropped it if I couldn't play it like this (small chunks), mostly due to the insane amount of combat, but all in all it was a fine experience.

 

[ilitarist]

Everyone says Avadon has trash combat. Just want to be clear: do you feel it's common for Spiderweb games? Geneforge 5 had almost perfectly balanced number of encounters, I feel, maybe slightly more than it was needed. Is Avadon worse in that regard?

 

[Sizzle]

Everyone says Avadon has trash combat. Just want to be clear: do you feel it's common for Spiderweb games? Geneforge 5 had almost perfectly balanced number of encounters, I feel, maybe slightly more than it was needed. Is Avadon worse in that regard?

Much, much worse.

 

[Villagkouras]

Everyone says Avadon has trash combat. Just want to be clear: do you feel it's common for Spiderweb games? Geneforge 5 had almost perfectly balanced number of encounters, I feel, maybe slightly more than it was needed. Is Avadon worse in that regard?

Can't comment on that, because it's my first Spiderweb game I've ever played.

 

[the_shadow]

Everyone says Avadon has trash combat. Just want to be clear: do you feel it's common for Spiderweb games? Geneforge 5 had almost perfectly balanced number of encounters, I feel, maybe slightly more than it was needed. Is Avadon worse in that regard?

Depends exactly what is meant by 'trash combat'. On harder difficulties enemies have varied abilities and require different approaches to combat, so even though Avadon has a lot of fighting, it never feels like a chore.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Spoiler

Why bother betraying Redbeard and Avadon? I mean, apart from the obvious "I want to be Keeper" bragging thing. Redbeard/Avadon may be corrupt, but the antagonists are not better. The game presents that Redbeard is corrupt and his means are cruel, but it never gives you the opportunity to engage in a directly rebel-like plot, apart from the obvious choice in the end. But by the time you get to choose, you've seen that the others are same shit as Redbeard, so no actual reason for change for me and I decided to stay with Redbeard.

Spoiler

I actually enjoyed the amount of choices you get at end game as well. Reading the codex before playing and you get a sense that no matter what you end up in a Redbeard fight, as a means to disparage the C&C aspect. My final boss encounter involved me staying on Redbeard's side but also not fighting the shadow dude. I chose not to have a final boss battle and the game let me, which I thought was fucking awesome.

 

[newtmonkey]

I completed this now, after years of on-and-off playing. It's just okay. I'd rank it above Queen's Wish in most ways, though I guess the combat in Queen's Wish was a bit better (though still bad). The game took me 50 hours to complete, but I am pretty sure I had to restart partway through due to losing my saves when I got a new computer. I reckon it actually took about 40 hours, though I skipped a lot of the optional stuff... for example, I didn't reach max level for any character, though I think it's easily possible if you explore a lot.

A few things kept me from really getting into this game:

• The main quest is quite linear and the game seems to be story-focused, but the story goes absolutely nowhere for the middle 30 hours, during which you are just getting sent from one kingdom to the next settling disputes. You don't really feel like an elite representative of a hegemon, but instead just an adventurer going around with two other guys shooting arrows at lizards. Queen's Wish had a similar issue in that you are supposed to be a prince of the most powerful empire in the world, but spend the whole game tediously killing every spider and wolf in the world.
• I hate using this term, but it's trash encounters from beginning to end. Enemies just run straight at you. During the last 25% of the game, you are basically immortal, yet every single enemy is hasted/frenzied so you are sitting there watching every single enemy attacking 2 times each, missing each time, waiting for your turn. Enemies almost always take 2-3 hits to kill no matter what, so you never really feel like you are getting more powerful.
• The three-person party is really a drag. There is no room for tactics, but on Normal (which is allegedly what the developer balanced the game around) anyway, you don't need any. The same tactics from Queen's Wish apply: stand back and use ranged weapons, then switch to melee once enemies are within range (or step one square away and just keep using your ranged attack).
• The overall structure of game has you operating out of a central base, with locations/missions unlocking as the story progresses (or you find subquests). In other words, Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Although there is plenty of exploration within each area (way, way, way better than Queen's Wish), I missed having a world to explore. I don't think the story/companions make up for this at all.

There seem to be a lot of meaningful choices to make in the game, though I'm not interested in playing a second time to find out. The achievements do suggest that there are multiple conclusions to certain quests, including the main quest. I ended up siding with Redbeard, FYI.

Although this sounds like damning the game with faint praise, it was a decent RPG to play while doing other things, such as listening to music, watching videos, etc. Unlike with Queen's Wish, I could see myself playing through the Avadon trilogy. I've heard that the second game is a big improvement. I might play that one on Hard, though I'll have to do some research and see if bumping up the difficuly just modifies enemy HP/damage, or actually adds something interesting.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I completed this now, after years of on-and-off playing. It's just okay. I'd rank it above Queen's Wish in most ways, though I guess the combat in Queen's Wish was a bit better (though still bad). The game took me 50 hours to complete, but I am pretty sure I had to restart partway through due to losing my saves when I got a new computer. I reckon it actually took about 40 hours, though I skipped a lot of the optional stuff... for example, I didn't reach max level for any character, though I think it's easily possible if you explore a lot.

A few things kept me from really getting into this game:

• The main quest is quite linear and the game seems to be story-focused, but the story goes absolutely nowhere for the middle 30 hours, during which you are just getting sent from one kingdom to the next settling disputes. You don't really feel like an elite representative of a hegemon, but instead just an adventurer going around with two other guys shooting arrows at lizards. Queen's Wish had a similar issue in that you are supposed to be a prince of the most powerful empire in the world, but spend the whole game tediously killing every spider and wolf in the world.
• I hate using this term, but it's trash encounters from beginning to end. Enemies just run straight at you. During the last 25% of the game, you are basically immortal, yet every single enemy is hasted/frenzied so you are sitting there watching every single enemy attacking 2 times each, missing each time, waiting for your turn. Enemies almost always take 2-3 hits to kill no matter what, so you never really feel like you are getting more powerful.
• The three-person party is really a drag. There is no room for tactics, but on Normal (which is allegedly what the developer balanced the game around) anyway, you don't need any. The same tactics from Queen's Wish apply: stand back and use ranged weapons, then switch to melee once enemies are within range (or step one square away and just keep using your ranged attack).
• The overall structure of game has you operating out of a central base, with locations/missions unlocking as the story progresses (or you find subquests). In other words, Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Although there is plenty of exploration within each area (way, way, way better than Queen's Wish), I missed having a world to explore. I don't think the story/companions make up for this at all.

There seem to be a lot of meaningful choices to make in the game, though I'm not interested in playing a second time to find out. The achievements do suggest that there are multiple conclusions to certain quests, including the main quest. I ended up siding with Redbeard, FYI.

Although this sounds like damning the game with faint praise, it was a decent RPG to play while doing other things, such as listening to music, watching videos, etc. Unlike with Queen's Wish, I could see myself playing through the Avadon trilogy. I've heard that the second game is a big improvement. I might play that one on Hard, though I'll have to do some research and see if bumping up the difficuly just modifies enemy HP/damage, or actually adds something interesting.

The only thing Avadon has going for it is that it's really hard on Torment. Otherwise, Queen's Wish is better in every way. In terms of Avadon's sequels, the whole series changes with the introduction of the super OP "Tinker" class, which has turrets. You can solo the game as a tinker on torment, so it kind of makes the sequels way too easy.