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The items are a wasted opportunity i agree - thing is, Vogel sucks at creating puzzles - there are very few and very simple ones, mostly situational and optional, eg: don't get spotted while flipping these switches - so there isn't much chance of that.
The man should hire a writer/scripter just to create "situations" where you can use skills and items on his fucking games.
In fact, i'm now wondering if the reason that Geneforge 5 is so much better on the stealth path is if one of his contractors had a hardon for thief or something. I mean, there are even patrols which is highly unusual for slothmaster Vogel.
No hope of requiring stuff like realms of Arkania with that iso style either.
Heh, it's even worse than you think. In each game Vogel will typically put in a quest for a few of the worthless items sitting around. So if you haven't been hoarding severed limbs (real example) all game you'll have to go back and get them from areas you've already cleared.
Heh, it's even worse than you think. In each game Vogel will typically put in a quest for a few of the worthless items sitting around. So if you haven't been hoarding severed limbs (real example) all game you'll have to go back and get them from areas you've already cleared.
I hated the fact that there are "cooldowns"...in a single-player game. WTF. Especially since some abilitites featured something like 6 turn cooldowns or longer.
What's wrong with cooldowns? Spamming the same thing over and over is boring and some abilities are balanced when used twice during a fight but not balanced when used 12 times in a fight.
(Not defending Avadon's terrible mechanics, just cooldowns in general).
Spam attacks -> flee from enemy -> spam attacks again after cooldown.
Special abilities should be limited by number of uses per day and limited resting. Or a mana pool, if necessary.
Spam attacks -> flee from enemy -> spam attacks again after cooldown.
Special abilities should be limited by number of uses per day and limited resting. Or a mana pool, if necessary.
That's cool and all but it doesn't relate to combat in any of Spiderweb games. Just because you played WoW doesn't mean that every game exhibiting a similar mechanic is crap.
Character system failed in Avadon but for completely different reasons than cooldown itself:
1) Making optimal builds meant that your character just used a standard attack 95% of the time because you had 2-3 abilities worth using and you either conserved them or had them on cooldown already.
2) Making a build with lots of abilities meant that your character was just gimped. The system is too simplistic and in the end whoever dealt more damage per turn was clearly superior - DPT over utility abilities is always a superior choice in this game. Not to mention the fact that the vitality pool is limited and makes using an ability-heavy character just a time-or-moneysink.
That's cool and all but it doesn't relate to combat in any of Spiderweb games. Just because you played WoW doesn't mean that every game exhibiting a similar mechanic is crap.
I wasn't talking about Avadon specifically, but replying to Porka Morka, who was talking about the mechanic in general. I'm not a big fan of it and would rather see the issue solved differently. It's not really a dealbreaker for me, but I can't think of any good game that uses it. Suggestions?
I only played the demo of Avadon (and even that not to the end) and quickly realised that I wasn't interested in it, mostly because the character system seemed too simplistic, as you have said.
I think the mechanic can work just fine in action games or ARPGs. Cooldown in Kingdoms of Amalur works just nice and isn't one of the reasons why the game sucks - OP skills and talents, ruined economy and underpowered enemies are. It works in Mass Effect 2&3 and Alpha Protocol well too.
Are these games good? Strongly debatable, but it's rather irrelevant when discussing the mechanic. It works well in these titles and that's what counts. I mentioned WoW because it's usually the MMOs that promote boring hit&recharge tactics to make fights artificially longer and more 'challenging'. TBH I can't think of any single-player games that promote doing something like that.
Cooldown is broken when a hit&recharge is the optimal tactic thus forcing the player to waste time waiting. If cooldown abilities spice things up, offer more tactical depth or give you an edge if used well - which is how they basically work in the four games I've mentioned - it's fine and is a reasonable alternative to a mana pool/use limit etc.
Boring and soulless cRPG. Even if you like other of Vogel's series (Geneforge and Avernum) you should pass on this game, because it falls short in comparison. If you don't like other Vogel's series, then you'd rather enjoy hitting your balls more than playing Avadon. Annoying combat and interface, huge and empty world, boring dialogues and story. The setting is another fantasy, so I won't even mention how banal and unremarkable it is. Even if you get this game for free, it's not worth your time.
Boring and soulless cRPG. Even if you like other of Vogel's series (Geneforge and Avernum) you should pass on this game, because it falls short in comparison. If you don't like other Vogel's series, then you'd rather enjoy hitting your balls more than playing Avadon. Annoying combat and interface, huge and empty world, boring dialogues and story. The setting is another fantasy, so I won't even mention how banal and unremarkable it is. Even if you get this game for free, it's not worth your time.
One thing I kinda liked about it (at least in part 1, in the sequel it was just more of the same. I suppose it will be like that for part 3 as well) were the political "freedom vs security" implications, though he never went far enough with them.
Avadon is an OK game (if slightly disappointing even by Avernum standards), but the Shadow Beast quest killed it for me.
It's part of the main storyline and the game goes out of its way to give you a million hints concerning the nature of the conspiracy involved, then proceeds to take away your choice at the crucial moment by inserting a cut scene(!) and preventing you from attacking the NPC which by that time you know is the real "villain".
I honestly can't think of a plot device/mechanic I hate more than that.
I totally agree with this, but it's not a killer for me. I kinda guessed it would provide an excuse to enter the Wizard's tower with a sword of vengeance at a later date. Kind of a mountain out of a molehill argument, even though I do get what you're on about.
I know the sales numbers, there's a market for everything these days. However, people who enjoyed his previous games should not automatically assume that they'll like Avadon.
Only 2 missions in so far, but as it stands ATM for me, Avadon1>Avernum1>Geneforge1. The part I like least about Avadon so far are some reused background sounds from Geneforge... However, I guess if someone's already played Avernum 1-6, Geneforge 1-5 then I suspect there'd be some Vogel fatigue whatever he did, aside from some thing 100% completely original in every way.
I downloaded the demo. Gave up during the very first fight upon discovering that there is no combat dialogue window and I can't find out what were my chances of missing.
This pisses me off as well. In fact it's worse than that, sometimes you'll get a reward from an NPC and it'll be some personal enhancement for your character, which briefly flashes above their head for literally 1 second and is then gone forever. My perception has been improved? What what what? Huh? wtf? Oh well, whatever, on with the game. It's not something that makes me want to give up on it.
Yeah with Avadon the big sellout of Jeff Vogel began. He made his new game series more accessible/streamlined, got picked up by steam (despite in the past always defending his pricing policy of "niche games for niche prices"). After shelling out 25 bucks or something in that region for Avadon (blind purchase because I enjoyed his previous games and was - as usual with Vogel games - more of the same with a different Story/World), three to four month later he got Avadon on Steam for under 10 dollars which pissed some people - including me - off very much.
What a dumb thing to bitch about. I buy almost all my media at low, low prices. If I buy full whack it's because I want to support the company and if the game's good then all the better, they can look forward to more from me.
I got about ten hours into Avadon. The story seemed like it could be interesting, but it just never really picked up and the filler-combat more or less got to me before the plot could.
I'm not getting the filler combat angle so much from this game. The worst offender in this regard for me has so far been Geneforge 1. Avadon's seems pretty par so far.
The focal decline points of Avadon are its encounter design and story. To be honest, I was enraged by the simplified RPG system at the time (because pretty much no RPG system remains - you choose one of two builds for each class and that's it, you may distribute some points, but it's all superficial since there's only one useful stat for each character and you need to overbuff that stat as heavily as the game allows you), but let's face it - Vogel's RPG systems always sucked. Like, he always offered a shitload of skills in his games (and in Avernum there were also traits), but due to poorly thought implementation there were little freedom there, there were a few right builds and a ton of wrong, useless and impotent ones, not to mention that there were even fewer right ones, so... So yeah, simplified RPG system I can live with, it's unfortunate when instead of healing you amputate, but that's life.
Nevertheless, combat and story are unbearable. After unique (at least amongst cRPGs) Geneforge and semi-unique Avernum (well, there were dungeon worlds before, but Avernum managed to avoid most of the common cliches, no fucking drows and other trash), we are left with boring power struggles (boring since each side consists of bad, ugly motherfuckers and you're given no reason why you should really prefer one side for another) in a 100% generic dork fantasy world. Yay. Oh, and faux C&C - double yay!
But even that could be tolerable - after all, despite decent setting, the story in Avernums was always DERP DERP DERP, always this shit about good and decent and brilliant avernites vs evil empire, but it was the excellent (at least in parts 5 and 6, hadn't played the other ones) combat that kept you from uninstalling the game - engagements were diverse and challenging, while in avadon we see what? First, uninspired, boring design where most of your enemies are just copy-pasted grind filler, most bosses are copied from Vogel's previous games (in worst and unimaginative manner possible) and new battles are simply sleep inducing (like clusterfuck that the final boss is, I mean, it's probably in eternal top ten of worst game bosses ever). Oh, and hard is the new easy, obviously.
So, basically, Avadon is awful not because it became too streamlined (no real C&C and simple role-playing system), but because it's gameplay is shoddily crafted, with spending as little effort as possible (it shows, really). A hack job, really.
I played it for a week an hour or two daily, have to agree the combat is unbearably boring. You could probably slog through it for the story but the amount of filler is just unbelievable.
For example, the first cave with a helpful dragon is occupied by some goblins wretches. You have the opportunity to ask someone how many are there: he says around a hundred - and that is literally how many you'll have to slaughter. They won't do any significant damage to you, you have to hit each twice successfully to kill it.
Imagine Arcanum level shit combat coupled with Diablo's hordes of monsters.
No, in the cave itself there's not many, in the whole map there's about 100, not really much different to any other RPG of average quality. Average isn't unbelievable at all, quite the opposite. Combat for this section is fine. In the options screen at start-up it says quite clearly that it starts off very easy and then gets gradually harder. If I took that attitude with every RPG I wouldn't play many RPGs.
The few positive (to my ears) comments I read on the Spiderweb boards was that while the character system was streamlined, the bosses and the player would have cool and interesting abilities more than in previous Spiderweb games?
This is something I just don't get. It's really obvious that a lot of objects are there for visual reasons (mushrooms in caves, candles etc. in houses) but why can players pick them up? 99% of these objects are completely useless. Even ones with modest utility value, like food, heal such minor amounts that a few hours into the game there's literally no reason to ever touch them, so why are they interactive? It's just extra clutter to sort through.
That said, Avadon's most awesome thing: the junk bag. While it's a little too infinite for my tastes, it really, really speeds up the inventory sorting and looting process.
In fact I would say, ugly graphics aside, that the whole interface is one of the best I've ever seen in an isometric RPG. The game really was smooth and fun to play because of it, and even repetitive stuff like combat was made more bearable by all the hotkeys and whatnot.
Hah, another good point re: worthless objects on the ground. At the start of the intro dungeon I kept finding shackles on the ground. I picked some up because I thought I might need them to capture the loose prisoners I was supposed to track down in the prison but... yeah... they're just there for show. Can't even sell them... what's the point? It isn't as if the engine is done Ultima 7 style where it would make sense to have a near fully interactive world.
If it's your first Vogel game then I should think everyone says this, but it's like that in all his games, so it's one of those things that becomes second nature, not a great fuss, but I agree it could be put to more actual use sometimes.
Yeah, I had the same reaction to the ground clutter. Give me the option to carry rope in a RPG and BY GOD I'LL CARRY SO MUCH ROPE YOUR HEAD WILL SPIN. Then by the time I finished the dragon's quest I got the feeling that I was never going to be using any of this shit.
Yup, same here, just in case this was the game where he switched it up the one thing I made sure to carry a few of for the first few screens was the good ol' rope, lol. In this game I've decided to hoard all the Wine, Beer and Food I can so that at the end I can have a big larpy feast. It's not ideal, but it gives me another set of endorphins to look for.
Heh, it's even worse than you think. In each game Vogel will typically put in a quest for a few of the worthless items sitting around. So if you haven't been hoarding severed limbs (real example) all game you'll have to go back and get them from areas you've already cleared.
I hated the fact that there are "cooldowns"...in a single-player game. WTF. Especially since some abilitites featured something like 6 turn cooldowns or longer.
Boring and soulless cRPG. Even if you like other of Vogel's series (Geneforge and Avernum) you should pass on this game, because it falls short in comparison. If you don't like other Vogel's series, then you'd rather enjoy hitting your balls more than playing Avadon. Annoying combat and interface, huge and empty world, boring dialogues and story. The setting is another fantasy, so I won't even mention how banal and unremarkable it is. Even if you get this game for free, it's not worth your time.
According to your own list you've never completed a Vogel game? But you keep trying...? As a 'never once was a fan' what is the point of you recommending people not to play it?
Yeah, if this is your 12th Vogel game I could see how you might have Vogel fatigue. So far I like this one the best, though by the end Avernum 1 might still edge it out, I'll see how it goes. After the horrors of Geneforge 1 it's like a breath of fresh air IMO.
Boring and soulless cRPG. Even if you like other of Vogel's series (Geneforge and Avernum) you should pass on this game, because it falls short in comparison. If you don't like other Vogel's series, then you'd rather enjoy hitting your balls more than playing Avadon. Annoying combat and interface, huge and empty world, boring dialogues and story. The setting is another fantasy, so I won't even mention how banal and unremarkable it is. Even if you get this game for free, it's not worth your time.
According to your own list you've never completed a Vogel game? But you keep trying...? As a 'never once was a fan' what is the point of you recommending people not to play it?
I'll second his recommendation. Avadon is probably Vogel's worst game ever. It's out there everywhere, in bundles, on sale for $2... but it leaves a bad first impression. Vogel fatigue on first playthrough.
You don't have to be a fan to enjoy his other games... for all their flaws they're still some of the better oldschool RPGs around.
My advice to Spiderweb noobs: try some Geneforge and Avernum demos, play a full game if you like it, and then if you're still curious about Avadon try the demo or just get it for $2. But remember it's cheap for a reason.
For sure. I heard noises about Unity for his next new game, but he's gotta keep the old engine to recycle Avadon 1+2 assets (and I can't knock him for that, as long as it's not a complete rehash).
I wouldn't be surprised if he never changes engines in the end. The more I see of 3D pseudo-iso RPGs the less I like them. At least his old engine has a certain charm.
Yeah, 3D pseudo-iso is often pretty ugly. Especially if you don't have the money to get good artists. He doesn't need a whole new engine, he just needs to add basic features to his current engine that have been lacking forever (like the ability to manipulate objects in the environment with your mouse directly, letting right click do something, maybe a zoom in and out just for shits and giggles, a bunch of other stuff I'd have to sit down and think about). I love his games, but the current engine definitely has several unnecessary layers of counter-intuitive interface mechanics. I mean, after a while clicking "g" after every combat encounter just to see if anyone dropped anything of value (which is necessary because the sprites are so small it's impossible to see naturally in the environment) or pushing "v" (or whatever button) when entering a room to reveal any interact-able items become so second nature you don't think about it. But it's still kind of an odd way of doing things and sometimes makes you feel like you are playing an illustrated spreadsheet rather than moving around in an interactive world. I know nothing about programming so I have no idea if he could easy do something like that with his current engine, or if he'd have to rework it from scratch. Either way, I think he should stick to 2D.
What programming languages and libraries do you use for developing Avernum/Avadon?
Pretty straightforward C++ and OpenGL, using the source for an engine I bought years ago. I am really in the market for a new engine. For the new game series at the latest.
That said, I'll be doing all new art and a new engine for the new game series. It'll be as fancy and nice as I can make it. New icons. New creatures. New interface. It'll be expensive and a lot of work.
I'm making an engine like that; there are some difficult aspects but it's only a few months work, maybe 10% of the overall development effort. Sounds like he might write it himself, at least the gameplay part. I think he can handle it.. doesn't strike me as the overly ambitious type who would get hung up on engine coding.
So far I like this one the best, though by the end Avernum 1 might still edge it out, I'll see how it goes. After the horrors of Geneforge 1 it's like a breath of fresh air IMO.
As I suspected, by the time the credits rolled I felt I'd had a better game overall with Avernum 1 (Escape From the Pit 2.0), but I still enjoyed it a whole lot more than Geneforge 1. On the positive side, I could see myself replaying Avadon 1, something which didn't even cross my mind with the other two games, however, that final few missions in Avadon had me using a whole lot of "Oh, just fuck offs" in a raised voice than Avernum 1 ever did and, overall, I just didn't like the plot's bias towards rebellion, it felt like an eyeroll festival every time I tried to navigate towards anything even remotely on the 'loyal' path. It felt more narratively involved that Avernum 1, but was so jarring I'd rather have had something more along the lines of Avernum's relatively option-free common-sense than Avadon's pseudo-choice nagging and niggling. Still, delighted it was much more fun than the tedious Geneforge.
I think my biggest "oh, just fuck off" with Avadon asides from the nob-grinding plot-points was in the more crucial area of combat mechanics. At level 30 you are suddenly refused any more levels, you are maxed out. Fair enough, so I should be performing in some form of visible steamroll then... yes?. Well, not steamrolling opponents and all that, but just generally feeling like my posse is a well 'ard posse of doom that people should at least worry about facing, right? My biggest gripe was fighting some of those end groups and my mage's Daze spell gets resisted, my fighter's stunning bash, my Howls of Terror get resisted, every effing time... and yet... those numpty trash-like mobs can get me dazed and stunned and terrified practically every single time. And that warriors mind protection spell tended to do fuck all as well. Having well over 40 Strength and well over 20 Endurance you'd think that would buy some resistance to crap like Stunning, but it appears to do fuck all. The complete lack of info about stats in this game is utterly appalling and if it wasn't Jeff Vogel making a game with dimes and me buying it for dimes then I'd tear the game a new one over it.
Edit cos I forgot loads of stuff. And with regards to the points you put into spells and abilities, you get these bonus levels where you can +1 an entire row and then, on top of that, you can get +many from various armour and weapons, which is great... except when you go to boost your spells at next level-up it tells you that you can't boost those spells as you have to boost those below them first, because for this it doesn't take into account all your bonus stats. In my book, that's disgraceful
The Scarabs get shit. From strong early promise they devolved throughout the game rather than evolved. An early +1 to both Dex and Str from just one Scarab felt awesome, but later in the game, near the end, when you get one as a reward for a long-slog mission, it's just some shite spell you've already got a gazillion of from wands and scrolls. This feeds into the end-game decline heavily.
The merchants in the game are pretty crappy. Again, near the start you see some bits and pieces which seem tempting and consume some cash, but after buying four or five items, across all the dealers in the game, there's nothing really there to spend cash on, except Lockpicks, and they don't even have many of those. From the start I didn't sell any high value rewards, such as Gold Bars, Furs, Emeralds, Platinum Rings, Golden Goblets, Nice Gemstones, Sapphires, Rubies, Bolts of Cloth and still had well over 10k cash at the end plus a fairly massive pile of spare special clothing.
I never did work out how resistances and armour actually worked and I still have no idea if 38 Armour + 10% Evade is better or worse than 30 Armour + 25% Fire Resist. I kept by a whole load of Fire Resist gear in the expectation of facing a dragon at some point, but I never did beyond that early ridiculous quest to do 200/300 damage to one because... whatever.
VOGELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
