Avadon

[Metro]

From everyone's feedback it is good to see my tastes have not 'declined' and that Avadon is truly a flawed game. All of you seem to agree the character system sucks/is uninteresting and that the combat is dull 90% of the time. Another good point mentioned was that the graphics are too polished giving everything a 'clean' look. It really doesn't do the game any favors and I'd much rather look at 8-bit artwork that had more substance to it.

 

[hoverdog]

I downloaded the demo. Gave up during the very first fight upon discovering that there is no combat dialogue window and I can't find out what were my chances of missing.​

I don't think Vogel has ever showed you your hit chances in any of his games, it's always a guess.

Wrong. It was always shown in the log after a miss, your or an opponent's.

 

[Johannes]

First, uninspired, boring design where most of your enemies are just copy-pasted grind filler, most bosses are copied from Vogel's previous games (in worst and unimaginative manner possible) and new battles are simply sleep inducing (like clusterfuck that the final boss is, I mean, it's probably in eternal top ten of worst game bosses ever).

Could you elaborate? The few positive (to my ears) comments I read on the Spiderweb boards was that while the character system was streamlined, the bosses and the player would have cool and interesting abilities more than in previous Spiderweb games? Latest Geneforges and Avernums were pretty good in that already though, especially when you compare to early Avernums (Exile had a lot of options, but the system was imbalanced as fuck - though Avernum 1-3 system was easily breakable too, just simpler).
Or maybe those comments were about the newest Exile/Avernum remake? Not sure.

Well, myself I quit the game really early, because the world just didn't grab me at all, and then at start I'm sent to fight... Rats and spiders, that are practically impossible to lose to even on high difficulty? Fuck that, I'd rather pick up an unplayed Geneforge game or something than to trudge through shit like that.


Sad thing is, that when you look for example at the optional "challenge" dungeons in his games, there's quite cool designs there, and not that much filler at all. Where there's nasty and interesting designs he either won't dare to force on his full playerbase cause they're so brutal (like constant mana drain in Tower of Zkal) or just doesn't have the time to put such designing effort into each location. Basically there was improvement in his games up to GF5/Avernum 6 too, but now it seems to be fucking stead decline from there...
Well, I guess I'll still give the new Avernum demo a spin once it comes out on Windows.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Could you elaborate? The few positive (to my ears) comments I read on the Spiderweb boards was that while the character system was streamlined, the bosses and the player would have cool and interesting abilities more than in previous Spiderweb games?

I can try.

First, about player having moar abilities - total wash. Like, no, from the mathematical point of view, yes, there are a greater number of differently named abilities that are available to the player, but most of them are almost similar to each other and nearly all debuffing abilities (and there's a heck of a lot of debuffing abilities there) almost never work on bosses. Take stun, for example - sure, you can easily stun a grind mob with it (only why would you want to? it's faster to simply kill it), but when it comes to a boss (e.g. to a situation where you really needed) your chances are abysmal. You stun them occasionally, but it's totally not worth it. And same goes for the acid, poison, slows and other debuffs. BTW, buffs are also not that useful since, once again, you don't need them versus common creeps and when it comes to bosses, tough ones, it is usually more efficient to use buffing scrolls\crystals\potions. Summons also don't do much to bosses, they can't even hope to tank them, IIRC. In the end, you're left with your basic popamole attacks and some AoE, if needed - man, what a diverse pool of abilities!

Second, the thing about bosses themselves. There's, like, three categories of them:

a. Bosses that may have some interesting abilities, only they die so fast (even on hard - never tried nightmage since I was already tired by HP bloat on those stupid trash mobs) that they have no time to use them. When your boss is killed in two or three turns, he can't do much, can he?

b. Bosses that are copy\pasted from Avernum and Geneforge: now, theoretically, there are some good ones here, only I still remember how fun it was to kill them in the aforementioned games, so if I want another try why would I play this decayed piece of shit, why won't I replay them?

c. Bosses that are totally new and totally boring: biggest example here is the (optional) final boss. Fuck. It's not like he's really dangerous or something, it's just that he heals almost all damage that he takes so it can literally take hours to kill him, even if you were power-gaming. Think about taking down 10k hp (number is estimated, don't remember correctly) by, say, 10 hp a turn, using the same repetitive actions turn into turn. Fu-u-u.... n.

 

[Achilles]

From everyone's feedback it is good to see my tastes have not 'declined' and that Avadon is truly a flawed game. All of you seem to agree the character system sucks/is uninteresting and that the combat is dull 90% of the time. Another good point mentioned was that the graphics are too polished giving everything a 'clean' look. It really doesn't do the game any favors and I'd much rather look at 8-bit artwork that had more substance to it.

Yup, pretty much. If we're going to talk graphics, it really bothers me that Avadon has no art direction to speak of. I've seen games with much worse engines from a technical side, but the design comes off as horribly generic and uninspired, as if they were made by a robot and not a human.

 

[Phelot]

I tried the demo, but it didn't appeal to me. The combat was pretty damn boring and the I wasn't hooked by the story, so I just didn't see any reason to go on. I've never really gotten into Vogel's games, though I try them from time to time. Geneforge is probably the only series I haven't tried and apparently it's the best?

 

[Johannes]

I tried the demo, but it didn't appeal to me. The combat was pretty damn boring and the I wasn't hooked by the story, so I just didn't see any reason to go on. I've never really gotten into Vogel's games, though I try them from time to time. Geneforge is probably the only series I haven't tried and apparently it's the best?

Yeah, it is. Some of the most diverging C&C in cRPGs ever, and nice character mechanics too when you can constantly reshape your pokamon army (just don't get attached to any 1 creature, it's nicer to play constantly replacing the fuckers and saves you from reloading). The world is pretty original and cool too.

GF5 is probably the best game, so best to start either with that or the 1st one. Actually due to how the different endings and the ambiguity of what exactly happened canonically in the past games, I could see it working to play the series in either direction.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

From the demo it seemed like the blandest game possible.

Generic graphics, classes and skill trees ripped out of an average Diablo clone, boring as hell combat with tons of trashy mobs. Oh yes, one thing stands out - irritiating as all hell looting, just improve that shit already. Making your game old school through shitty interface only to go all next-gen with everything else isn't really a sound strategy.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Yeah, at some point he should remove the "press G to pick up objects" mechanic. His games already have way too much stuff to pick up anyway, although he seems to have reduced the appeal of doing that in Avadon (as many items are now worth nothing compared to what they were worth in older games).

 

[Nim]

Some of the most diverging C&C in cRPGs ever,

Hyperbole much ? Unless you want to back that up with some examples.

and nice character mechanics too when you can constantly reshape your pokamon army (just don't get attached to any 1 creature, it's nicer to play constantly replacing the fuckers and saves you from reloading).

Depends on which GF you are playing.

The world is pretty original and cool too.

The setting is imo the best thing about the series.

 

[sea]

Yeah, at some point he should remove the "press G to pick up objects" mechanic. His games already have way too much stuff to pick up anyway, although he seems to have reduced the appeal of doing that in Avadon (as many items are now worth nothing compared to what they were worth in older games).

This is something I just don't get. It's really obvious that a lot of objects are there for visual reasons (mushrooms in caves, candles etc. in houses) but why can players pick them up? 99% of these objects are completely useless. Even ones with modest utility value, like food, heal such minor amounts that a few hours into the game there's literally no reason to ever touch them, so why are they interactive? It's just extra clutter to sort through.

That said, Avadon's most awesome thing: the junk bag. While it's a little too infinite for my tastes, it really, really speeds up the inventory sorting and looting process.

In fact I would say, ugly graphics aside, that the whole interface is one of the best I've ever seen in an isometric RPG. The game really was smooth and fun to play because of it, and even repetitive stuff like combat was made more bearable by all the hotkeys and whatnot.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Even ones with modest utility value, like food, heal such minor amounts that a few hours into the game there's literally no reason to ever touch them

I don't know which specific food item it was, but there's a wayside inn in the last geneforge that has infinite amounts of it and if you do the math it was way more economical than healing pods for out of combat healing

so yeah I ended up carrying shitloads of kebabs or what have you

 

[Johannes]

Some of the most diverging C&C in cRPGs ever,

Hyperbole much ? Unless you want to back that up with some examples.

Not hyperbole.

In GF5:
There's a lot of alternate ways to complete quests - stealth, mechanics, talkan, and of course fightan (which is still unavoidable). And various ways to resolve quests, which lead to different rewards, different reputation effect, and different ending slides too. Iirc 5 factions to choose from (and a factionless ending too I think), with all their own questlines and endings, and possibility to backstab a faction you've joined in favor of another, even multiple times if you play your cards right. What might be a friendly town in some questline is a hostile dungeon in another etc.
Also there's these magic containers that give instant power but also hurt your brian in the long run, C&C.

And well, how many RPGs actually have any really notable amount of C&C when you think of it? Fallouts, Arcanum, ToEE, (AoD), NWN2 expansions?, some jap games, some aRPGs?
So basically to be among the best games in C&C department basically means that you tried. Then again he could've probably done 2 or 3 Avadons with same amount of work, such a shame when people can't experience all your content on a single playthrough

 

[sea]

I don't know which specific food item it was, but there's a wayside inn in the last geneforge that has infinite amounts of it and if you do the math it was way more economical than healing pods for out of combat healing

so yeah I ended up carrying shitloads of kebabs or what have you

Except that you auto-regenerate health at a very fast rate outside of combat. I guess you can make the case for them if you've been spotted right after one combat, and want to heal fully before the next combat encounter begins, but that's an extremely rare scenario.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

you auto-regenerate health at a very fast rate outside of combat

that was a side anecdote about how very minor restoratives can still be useful, not pertaining to avadon exactly

also he pretty much killed all the tension of avadon's dungeon crawling with regenerating health, yay get as injured as you want

imagine regenerating health in infinity engine games

even an 'obsolete' spell like cure light wounds can be a between-battles lifesaver even in the endgame, with no rest stops

 

[Johannes]

^Are you talking of Avadon? Cause I'm pretty sure there's no health regen in Geneforge which he referenced

Edit: ninja'd by meltdown

imagine regenerating health in infinity engine games

Well, you can rest wherever you want in them pretty much, also rings of regen in some of them
Whereas in GF (or Avernum) you must return to town except you sometimes cannot

 

[Pope Amole II]

That said, Avadon's most awesome thing: the junk bag. While it's a little too infinite for my tastes, it really, really speeds up the inventory sorting and looting process.

No, it does not speed up anything. Since every time you pick anything you, instead of just clicking on the items, have to click on the bag and then put items into it, the amount of resulting clicks remains nearly the same - sure, it's easier to sell items, only it's harder to pick them up, oh, what a progress!

Junk bag is one of the best examples of everything that is wrong with Vogel's innovations.

 

[Raghar]

Johannes

Don't forget that funny decision after which a person said to you: You survived, wow you are the first. Choice and consequences bitches, it's even more funny when you are playing on ironman.

 

[Nim]

Couldn't you STR+leftclick an item directly into the junkbag or something ?

 

[Raghar]

That's too complex for them.

 

[Metro]

Hah, another good point re: worthless objects on the ground. At the start of the intro dungeon I kept finding shackles on the ground. I picked some up because I thought I might need them to capture the loose prisoners I was supposed to track down in the prison but... yeah... they're just there for show. Can't even sell them... what's the point? It isn't as if the engine is done Ultima 7 style where it would make sense to have a near fully interactive world.

 

[Johannes]

They're for role-playing purposes, obviously.

 

[Metro]

I can 'play the role' of the prison guard!

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Yeah, I had the same reaction to the ground clutter. Give me the option to carry rope in a RPG and BY GOD I'LL CARRY SO MUCH ROPE YOUR HEAD WILL SPIN. Then by the time I finished the dragon's quest I got the feeling that I was never going to be using any of this shit.

 

[Kosmonaut]

This ground clutter is also prevalent in Avernum. I hate that.