Armor: Do you use it? If so, how much?

[crpgnut]

I'm curious as to how much armor your characters generally wear. Most armor has
significant speed penalties and doesn't seem to block damage any better than a tunic.
Has anyone noticed any difference? I've started testing this, but am not very far along
in my observations. What I did was fight the same battle several times. In the first battle
I had my frontline characters load up on armor so that when you examined them the
stat screen says well armored. Because of all the armor, each of these guys only
got one attack/round. Fine. They shouldn't take very much damage from the enemy
and they'll protect my archers in back. Not true. We were facing creatures that
wielded greatswords and the average damage done to my fighters was 14 per hit.
Each creature also only got one attack with the greatsword. My minimally armored
archers got to fire 2-3 arrows each at the monsters, depending on dexterity. It took
us 4 rounds to dispose of the 3 creatures, who had pretty good hitpoints. Reload.
This time I have my frontline guys in minimal armor, but each gets to swing his weapon
twice. The creatures attack and the average damage was 14.5 points this time, but
I disposed of the creatures in 2 rounds because I was getting two swings from each of my frontline guys. What are your observations? It seems as if creatures attack for the
same amount of damage regardless of armor. If so, armor is useess except to make
your characters easier to differentiate in combat.

 

[thathmew]

I'm curious about this as well.

In my play experience armor makes a _huge_ difference.

For instance starting a new game from scratch depending on the party it can be very tough to take out the group of hoppers just east of Kellen, but if you by the mail shirt from Alves it makes a very noticeable difference and the fight a lot easier.

-mat

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I refuse to wear much armor because of the speed penalties. I try to limit my total armor penalty to -2, so -1 for the pants and -1 for the shirt. I'd much rather have the faster attacking, longer movement, and so forth. That's just me though.

 

[Carioz]

I love armors. Most of my front line fighters are as heavilly armored as possible (Guardian Vest is a must as soon as I can buy it) my thaumaturgist-axe thrower and generalist-archer tend to be less armored, but it is more an "eye candy" than a deeply thought before decision.
Of course there are armors I wouldn't have my character touch, much less wear, like the -1 blocking 1-2 leather shirts...

 

[crpgnut]

I'm with SP, so far at least

I probably made it clear in my first post, but I'm with Saint Proverbius on the armor.
So far it's been more important to deal damage quickly than to avoid being hit. If I can hit
you 3 times for 8 and you hit me once for 12, you're gonna die If you miss with your one swing, you do zero damage to me. If I miss, I still get two more shots! This could
change drastically if the party is outnumbered. That's the important part, now I'm gonna ramble on a bit:

MILD SPOILERS ABOUT CITADEL AREA: TREAD CAREFULLY


Okay. When fighting the malnutritioned gang in the sewers, you come across
3 sargents and later a combat with a captain and 3 more sargents. IF I had to fight
all 7 of these guys at the same time a heavily armored approach would likely work
better. Otherwise, my frontline guys are going to die before we can kill enough of
them to whittle down the damage. I always focus on one guy at a time, so that I
get the number of hits down as quickly as possible. Mat mentioned the hoppers
outside of Kellen. I was able to kill all but one of the hoppers before they got
into melee range. I had Nylis and Kyrie? from Kellen in my party. I had four bows
and my thaumaturge threw javelins. I really think my armor preference stems from
my style of fighting. I always get 1 or 2 completely free rounds of fighting when
the opposing party doesn't have archers. By the time they get close enough for
melee, there is only a couple of creatures left. Most battles with dwellers, lupins,
fungoids, etc end without my party taking any damage. I kill them at range, or at
least injure them so bad that by melee time they fall in a single round. Heavily
armored foes do absorb a lot of my damage but I still get in several licks. When
you have 6 ranged attacks every round it makes a HUGE difference.

 

[Kyminara]

I usually have one or two well armored people in my group. Armor was not a priority, so my characters almost always had better weapons and shields than armor. The low-armor archers and magic users get killed in combat much more quickly when attacked by the enemy than the well armored fighters. It is a noticable difference.

 

[crpgnut]

Hey knowledgeabe people, a question???

When being attacked by an NPC is it based on where the strike lands? Can I be hit in
the hand, legs, and head or is armor and all or nothing thing? If I have one guy with a helmet that protects 5-9 and he's not wearing anything else will he be protected less than another character who has a helmet 1-2, a tunic 0-1, a shield 3-4, and gloves 1-2.
Both total a protection of 5-9, but one character should be much better protected than
the other. Say I'm being attacked by hoppers. Their attacks are probably going to target
either the legs or the torso. Head armor probably wouldn't come into effect at all on their
attacks, if the game is set up that way.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Re: I'm with SP, so far at least

I probably made it clear in my first post, but I'm with Saint Proverbius on the armor. So far it's been more important to deal damage quickly than to avoid being hit. If I can hit you 3 times for 8 and you hit me once for 12, you're gonna die If you miss with your one swing, you do zero damage to me. If I miss, I still get two more shots! This could change drastically if the party is outnumbered..

That's my thinking also. I'd much rather hit you with two strong attacks every round and still have movement than to be slow, armored to the gills, and only hit once. My Guardian character has 19 speed without armor, so he can chop people up pretty well every turn.

 

[Carioz]

As I said it is just a matter of preference: I think everyone of us had his party get to the Monastery Library and clear it, chop down Martha, kill Ironwood ran away girl... Just a matter of preference, nothing to go all theological on. :D

Edit:spelling

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, what's funny is that I created my Guardian with lots and lots of speed so that he could wear heavier armor and still be fairly quick. The problem is, I'm unwilling to give up that speed now that I've gotten used to having it.

A lot of the party members you can pick up in the game also have rather low speed values. I wouldn't even consider much armor on them just because they only have 12 speed. 12 speed is two normal attacks with a dagger to me, anything less.. gah.

Also, a lot of the bigger weapons, like a halberd, require a high speed just to use. If you have a 16 speed and a halberd, you can only do one strong attack per round. IIRC, that's 15 speed required to do that.

But yeah, it's preference, but it's also a good discussion as well. After all, that's why Mat is asking about how we feel on the subject, isn't it?

 

[CP]

I love armors. Most of my front line fighters are as heavilly armored as possible (Guardian Vest is a must as soon as I can buy it) my thaumaturgist-axe thrower and generalist-archer tend to be less armored, but it is more an "eye candy" than a deeply thought before decision.
Of course there are armors I wouldn't have my character touch, much less wear, like the -1 blocking 1-2 leather shirts...

I'm with Carioz. I can't fathom how people made it through the monastary archives without good armor. Those advanced dwellers can easily kill with one blow unless you're wearing some good shit. Pluse, their dex and endurance is so high it's damn hard to stop them from getting to you. Of course, you don't have to fight a lot of the nastier dwellers, but I assumed most people would. For those that did... how the @#$ did you do it?!? :shock:

Jeez, are people already better than me at my own game???


CP

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I just haven't been there yet, CP.

So far though, I can stomp whatever the game throws at me, but I haven't been to that area yet. Normal dwellers, my low armored, high speed Guardian and thump three of them all by himself though.

I don't really have any casters though except that Thurm party member I picked up in The Barrier and I've forced her to use daggers.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Okay, what exactly does the speed penalty on armors do? I thought it lowered action points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I armored up a few of my guys, and they still have the same number of action points as before, and nothing seems to be any slower.

However, if this is a bug, and armor is supposed to take away APs, you never read this, Mat. It never happened.

 

[CP]

Okay, what exactly does the speed penalty on armors do? I thought it lowered action points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I armored up a few of my guys, and they still have the same number of action points as before, and nothing seems to be any slower.

However, if this is a bug, and armor is supposed to take away APs, you never read this, Mat. It never happened.

I have a vague idea, but Mat programmed this and should be the one to answer the question. He's moving to Boston right now so it might take him a little while to get back to you. Feel free to send him an email if you'd like.


CP

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What's the vague idea while we wait?

 

[CP]

What's the vague idea while we wait?

Sorry, I'm at my girl's place. Her computer's about 75 yrs old so I can't access Prelude. Without it in front of my I wouldn't want to say anything that might be misleading. I'll be back tommorow, but Mat'll probably answer before that. Mat.... help


CP

 

[thathmew]

<grin> I was wondering if anyone would actually notice that THE SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING. As in we tested and then dropped them at the last minute and I forgot to remove the info from the armor examine screen.
I'm tweaking and playing with them and trying to decide if they will re-surface in 1.45.
My guess is they will, but will probably be lowered.

-mat

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

<grin> I was wondering if anyone would actually notice that THE SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING. As in we tested and then dropped them at the last minute and I forgot to remove the info from the armor examine screen.
I'm tweaking and playing with them and trying to decide if they will re-surface in 1.45.
My guess is they will, but will probably be lowered.

Noooooooooooooooooooooo..

Actually, I think a better method would be for it to affect "To Hit" or "Critical Chance". AP penalties, especially if they're cummilative, would be really, really bad.

If they do affect APs, ARMOR skill should offset the penalties, I think.

 

[HanoverF]

Heh, I thought the reason my characters had all their AP (Would Speed Points be more appropriate?) was cause their armor skill offset the low speed penelty of what they were wearing, I guess chain armor for all! (until 1.45)

 

[Vault Dweller]

if anyone would actually notice that THE SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING

Well then, I feel an urge to do some serious shopping.

 

[reaver]

SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING. 'damn right they don't'

I was wondering if anyone would actually notice that THE SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING

Of course we did, but there seems to be some lack of (revealing) info regarding armor class, Ap, weight, etc. anyway.

I mean if you're attacking a small character the chance of hitting it should also depend on:
a) the size/distance of the target.
b) how much weight you are carrying (encumbered) in comparison to your strength, endurance level.
c) how well rested u are; Yes let’s implement a fatigue level.
d) if you’re frightened (bravery lvl, ever been in a fight?).
e) blablabla...
One word: NOT! :evil:

I do agree with some implementation choices u guys made during the developing of the game itself:
No food and encumbrance involvement. (hate that i.e.
- character over weighted: u can’t carry any more loot. Don’t care just drag it over the ground or something figure it out man.
- you're exploring a forest and suddenly u decide to give the party a good night rest near an appletree-forest, given nobody has any food;
"quick", says the leader "let's rush back over a 100 miles to get some food at the ‘nearest’ town!". That's not even the worst part, cause he actually has an Intelligence of over 20!!!

So basically the point I'm trying to make clear: if u are thinking about a speed-penalty.
:idea: My mental model says wait a minute then u should also make sure that encumbrance is implemented (nah forget it just,,, forget IT).

Plz, remember there’s still a bit of fiction in the story,,, right?

 

[thathmew]

well, what I am working on(and what will be in place for the next version) is a slight lowing of the speed penalties, I feel that the maximum should never really get beyond 6 points and that is definitely a harsh amount harsh. armor penalties are only in place for torso and legs anyways, finally I'm going to make sure that the armor skill actually offsets the speed penalties, to the tune of 1 point offset for every ten points of skill, so basically you can improve your armor as you improve skill w/o severe penalty. Since armor skill improves fairly easily on its own it shouldn't be too much of a burden. My goal is that frontline characters who get hit often should wear and be able to wear heavy armor with only slight penalties as they improve they're armor skill, while missile characters and mages etc... can wear the heavier armor, but will suffer penalties.
Incidently armor penalties will affect the speed attribute directly which secondarily then affects AP's, to hit, and dodge chances.
Anyways, that's the idea.
-mat

 

[reaver]

Armor class: politically correct solution.

Fair enough.

Well thathmew I must tell you that's what I like about u zero-sum -ers
(zero-problems, well at least for most patches I guess).
Always the best politically correct solution...

hmm must be hard to decide which posters' arguments/suggestions are best, in comparison to your own beliefs about what a CRPG should be all about.

Question: r u also busy implementing prelude 2 or what 'll be the title of the successor?

Keep up the good work,
reaver.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

well, what I am working on(and what will be in place for the next version) is a slight lowing of the speed penalties, I feel that the maximum should never really get beyond 6 points and that is definitely a harsh amount harsh. armor penalties are only in place for torso and legs anyways, finally I'm going to make sure that the armor skill actually offsets the speed penalties, to the tune of 1 point offset for every ten points of skill, so basically you can improve your armor as you improve skill w/o severe penalty. Since armor skill improves fairly easily on its own it shouldn't be too much of a burden.

That's not bad then.

My goal is that frontline characters who get hit often should wear and be able to wear heavy armor with only slight penalties as they improve they're armor skill, while missile characters and mages etc... can wear the heavier armor, but will suffer penalties.

Ugh.. I've always hated the cliche about magic people and armor. I'd much rather have the system flexible than impose limits like that on it.

Think about a warrior class with Flame that just uses magic to haste himself. A system of magical failure or hinderance would ruin that type of character. In fact, it might even hurt the acolyte background people since they're Flame/Dagger people by design.

If a warrior with Flame also has a low intelligence, a magic penalty would severely mess him up just because he'll raise skills more slowly.

 

[Carioz]

[quote="thathmewTHE SPEED PENALTIES DO NOTHING. [/quote]

Now I understand why my tanked out front liners were so good... :D Oh well, looks like I'll have to rethink my party's equipment for 1.45