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Arcanum Arcanum Rebalance Mod

Shadenuat

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Stopped reading here. I'll avoid this mod like plague.
It's more of exception to the rule, probably random crazy spawn from Caladon or Glimmering Forest mixed up. I think it can happen in vanilla too. In Equilibrium all monsters get a huge boost though, so meeting Burnawar near Dernholm means TPK just as if you'd meet a bunch of wererats early near Tarant.

I just cleared Lair of Bellerogrim which is full of those lvl 20 fucks, with my level 25 party of me and Sogg, Virgil, Gar, Vollinger & doggie. Had to meditate after each monster cause it takes whole party to bring them down. There is also last boss, black drake, lvl 35, he has 4 attacks, not sure why, cause he can kill anyone with one :lol: I slammed shithead with telekinesis (Kinesis spell) for my 70+mage staff mana but only hurt him for half HP. Had to entangle him and throw dogge with +crit spell on it to finish him off.

NPCDog.gif
: hi. i dogge. i do more damage in a round than 25 lvl wizard.

still even dogge couldn't save me from lvl 50, 3000 HP, master of melee undomesticated snowman

79596775.jpg


I also met level 40 spider boss, level 49 werewolves and level 50 werewolf boss in Dredge. Not sure how player is supposed to deal with the latter at level you get to Wheel Clan, or without large party.
 
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Leonidus

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Thanks for the heads up on the trolling, Brazillian. I almost thought Shadenaut was serious for a second, implausible as it sounds.

World Editor means for sure there's a lot of the few things which could not be changed now will be. Some of the best parts are adding spells to monsters (which would make magic resist on items actually significant), and making NPCs harder (though I'll have to do each one by hand), and changing the straggler items. Can also place/remove items directly into the game, add/remove monsters, adjust follower starting level to be more appropriate (Weldo, etc.) as well as change Dog. Monsters which are supposed to be bosses in the game but don't have their own game file can be changed too now (Bogaroth, Temporal Beast, etc). Lot of other small things which I couldn't change as well, like the faction problem between Lord of the Damned in Ashbury Castle and Lord's Slaves (allied with kerghan, so if you change it in game files they either attack Kerghan at end or Lord of Damned at Ashbury).

The scr editors have a lot to offer too, but it will be more difficult to make changes with. But I already fixed the Kerghan melee skill problem (why he misses all the time) with the final fight scr. I'm hoping there's a way using scripts to finally have a good method to change fatigue on monsters, because even when you give them spells in worldeditor they blow it all too fast. Scripts can be used to give complicated bonuses to items also, that's why cursed items use special scripts.

Also hoping that Jaesun's Arcanum Factory will get some good use. By being able to create new item prototypes, I could make entirely new items and custom schematic components. I feel like there isn't enough items for a charismatic/beautiful hero type, so I always thought there should be something like spy gear, special tuxedos, necklace of charm, and so on. Also there aren't enough tech options for gloves and shoes.

Basically, a lot of stuff that's been on my list can get done, with few exceptions. I'm shooting for six months for release, but could be much shorter or much longer. Depends on how everything goes, and how many testing playthroughs I want to do before first release of 2.0 and all.
 
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(electrostaff without electrical damage, great; rapier with damage of a dagger),
leather armor (which gives SPD +5... yes, armor makes you faster than being naked in this mod)

lol

Great review Shadenuat, I'll have a big new version of my FO2 mod coming up in a while, make sure to do that one as well.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
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Location
Russia
Old Lagoon, quest for Wysper's gem

79602037.jpg


Think I found the "tricky monster":

79602040.jpg


79602053.jpg

Lethe Wyvern for you as bonus content:

79602101.jpg
 
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Drowed

Arcane
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Dec 28, 2011
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Location
Core City
Thanks for the heads up on the trolling, Brazillian. I almost thought Shadenaut was serious for a second, implausible as it sounds.

:hearnoevil:



No, seriously, the fuck? Haha, oh god. Now I'm not even sure if *he* is trolling or not.
 

Shadenuat

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After going through Thanatos, killing a few lvl 50 bosses and clearing dungeons (character level: 42), some thoughts.
Making combat more difficult just drags the game. The huge population of Arcanum dungeons is made of solitary monsters or small packs of them, who can't pose a threat to the player because of poor AI. And player can also always fall back to the exit. So, I think anyone would want to run back and forth as few times as possible, meaning it's better to just get one safe tactic and stick to it. And with unlimited mana and cheap ammo, you know what you are going to do. You'll wipe one monster, you rest to full strength. You wipe another, you rest to full strength. Repeat that over and over again for every zombie or money or whatever you are fighting.
You give monsters more HP and damage, you're just making shit even more tedious.

And bosses. They don't work for Arcanum. Arcanum is an open world game where, by design, everything is replaceable. The loot is randomized, powerful artifacts can be rivaled by items in shops, and all quests have multiple ways of solution. It's no Baldur's Gate, where getting your hands on Karsomyr is a true game changer. So there's a chest guarded by level 50 skrag or how are these flying creatures are named? Could be arcane items there, but could be a few rubies and potions you don't need. You want to help Stinky Pete to get rid of evil sword? Well, just get the sword, throw it into fires and teleport out. Or buy/gamble your own ship. Need that mithril ore? There is no reason to fight through Dredge, you can just buy it later. If anything what game says is true, is that Arcanum is indeed the world of possibilities.
There's also not much you can do to even make bosses in Arcanum dangerous. By it's nature, Arcanum does not treat anything or anyone as indisposable.
Reason why I turned Lethe Wyvern into a sheep and beaten it up :smug: It wasn't even a question if I could, but did I really want it? Is it fun to beat 3000-4000 HP bosses for minutes until you almost fall asleep?

You won't even get a lot of XP out of it, because of how experience system works in Arcanum. You're not leveling up 5 levels after getting that boss. So, there's even no reason to try.

The true arcanum - wtf is with combat in Arcanum.

Shadenuat is a known russian troll at these parts. :smug:
:codexisfor:You are too kind.
 
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RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Making combat more difficult just drags the game.

Confirmed Shadenuat for casual gamer.
Come play hardcore games like Agarest.

troll.png
 

Leonidus

Novice
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
22
Walls of text? Battles of Drogs? Count me in.
I have no interest in any battles of Drogs. One Drog was enough, as far as I'm concerned. It's more than a little crazy to view this forum as a fight of wits on a battlefield of Arcanum mods. I'm just going to respond to questions and explain things. And I do promise shorter posts, as requested. Following quotes are short because of this, not taken out of context.

This post will cover what was just blatantly wrong or untrue, by pure provable fact. There was so much of that, which is why it was hard to even take your criticism seriously. This is the internet after all, that's how the bizarre denizens operate. In the interest of brevity, another post will cover your logic.

as who else would know where to find wooden rings but arcanumfags who played game for years.
From the readme:
TECH SHOULD KNOW
===========================
....
- Good crafting requires special components usually only available at a certain point in the game. This requirement and location is listed in the notes of each on the weapon chart in the documentation. Wood rings can be bought rarely in Qintarra, and one is available only once in a special but obvious place early on.
----------------------
suited to your powergaming needs.
Quite the opposite: changes are based only on a modest assumption that players will try. It is not balanced towards people who start with ST 20, it is balanced so even players who want to play crazy builds can get away with it. That's another benefit of improving follower level schemes, you can rely on them if your PC is not geared for combat. If you purposely choose a playstyle weaker in combat, combat will be harder. That's true for every game. Just please for the love of god don't play the game like Chris Avellone.

The fact that you are basing things on a late game and high levels
Level 20 balance, as explained already, is late game and high level? Later areas are progressively harder because you and your party will be stronger, which is an improvement and is balanced, not a fault of any kind. Out of the way parts in some dungeons might have more challenging monsters for that reason: as a challenge. Some dungeons that can be accessed early (Ashbury haunted castle, for example) aren't able to be cleared until you get stronger. But that's not basing the game around high level, that means there's places for low level parties to go and high level parties, not exclusive to one or the other.

and recommend level cap remover (max level 127, woo, here I go golden bears!) speaks for that, I believe.
I recommend the level cap remover because it gives something to look forward to past 50, should you play through the entire game. That's an improvement, that's why I recommend it, and it has nothing to do with how the game is balanced. Void (endgame) is balanced for levels 45+. You wrongly assumed the patch recommendation is part of the balancing. You yourself reached level 42 after Thanatos plus clearing other dungeons.

Or at least made these changes with common knowledge in mind, like giving high DR to, say, werewolves or stone golems?
Ore Golem DR:50, Seething Mass (magma golem) FR:60, Stone Form Spell DR:95 Speed reduced to 1, Lycanthrope DR:30, Howler (werewolf) DR:30, Shadow Hunter (werewolf) DR:60, Lycanix (werewolf) DR:40, Mongrelon (green werewolf) PR:35 poison damaging attack.

shouldn't give a small lizard more HP and DR than an armored ogre
Which small lizard? If there's a good reason to change it, it will be easy to persuade me. If it's a lesser wyvern or dragon, I think they should give even ogres a hard time, being mythical beasts and all.

Yes, I've met a level 49 golden bear south of Shrouded Hills, and a small level 20 dragon which was almost immune to my abilities.
You noted this also was a rare exception, but if I can change it I will. This is the kind of thing I require feedback for, the strange occurrences on the fringes which don't happen in my playthroughs.

not everyone is interested in mowing down wolves and rats in TB (turn based) *yet again*, or casting all spells only in TB to avoid some bugs with fatigue.
From the readme:
Early on, such as before the Black Mountain Clan Mines, it can take forever to just land a good hit on a monster, so I recommend real time combat for fights you just need to autoattack through.
------------------------------
1) It should follow Arcanum logic in how powerful it is; i.e. it should grow in power with magical aptitude. So by all means, add shapeshifting, but then you should gain new animal forms as your app progressed.
None of the shapeshifting spells in Arcanum increase in power with magic aptitude, which is precisely why mine don't either.

I'm realizing the amount of purely incorrect statements is more than I thought, going through all of this now. Probably will take a few posts of moderate size, so this one will have to stop here.
 

Shadenuat

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From the readme:
It doesn't matter if there is a readme which states your view on design, it is still wrong design.

Quite the opposite
Fair enough. I haven't seen any increase in XP progression, so my opinion on that was wrong.

Although take a note that level 42 (46 now in the Void) is level of my mage, who can't do shit damage and just supports party. And as most of XP in Arcanum comes from dealing damage and killing monsters, it could be different for other builds.

Ore Golem DR:50, Seething Mass (magma golem) FR:60, Stone Form Spell DR:95 Speed reduced to 1, Lycanthrope DR:30, Howler (werewolf) DR:30, Shadow Hunter (werewolf) DR:60, Lycanix (werewolf) DR:40, Mongrelon (green werewolf) PR:35 poison damaging attack.
The DR and HP on your monsters and bosses is ridiculous, to the point which I had to make whole party attack one monster like Mongrelon. Maybe pyro-axe and pyro-rifle can do something, but the amount of HP alone turns combat into whack-a-mole for loooong amount of rounds. The bosses just don't work, you can break them easely because of AI (Gaseous Form/Stone form tanking), but amount of damage they can take is beyond retarded. All bosses are very boring, because you can't tank them any good, and they are all nothing but melee beasts with 2000-4000 HP. There is almost no difference between, say, Lethe Wyvern and Gorthax or whatshisname.

The only boss who is different is Grey King probably, but then again he is still a melee beast who rarely uses his Polymorph spells.

Also, single Soften spell makes the DR gimmick obsolete anyway, leaving just enormous health bars. Whack whack whack.

Which small lizard? If there's a good reason to change it, it will be easy to persuade me. If it's a lesser wyvern or dragon
The void lizard, although wyverns and drogorons are badass as well.

None of the shapeshifting spells in Arcanum increase in power with magic aptitude
Because they are high level spells (LVL 4), but Lycanthropy is level 1 and is stupid in many other ways. It is also pathetically weak, but so are most of damaging abilities of a mage now.
 
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Leonidus

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Wow, really on top of things Shadenaut. Thanks for the fast reply.

Design-wise I'll talk about in other posts, that was just going through pure misstatements you see.

Sorry your mage isn't doing so hot, I was going to make a post further explaining design choices regarding spells and armor but your criticism has sidetracked things a bit.

Mongrelon is out of the way in that nook of the Dredge, near the werewolf king, which is why they are there as a challenge. Monster AI and making them cast more spells wasn't changeable, so I'm sorry if you find the bosses to be a bore.

From the readme:
- Very high level monsters (typically 49 or 50) are meant to be boss monsters. Essentially all of them (if not all of them) can be avoided entirely if they are too hard.

Void lizard should only be encountered near Liam's Workshop or the void of course, if memory serves right. What's cool about that is because those void monsters by Liam's are quite difficult, you usually have to sneak up on the demon gate from a different angle and deactivate it that way (you can use the trap/scroll at range). The combat difficulty means you must use your mind to finish the quest. I really like those kinds of things. Granted, it's an unfamiliar feeling in Arcanum!

The lycanthropy spell is very deliberate in its design, but in a way which is not obvious. I anticipated it would seem strange, so it (like most spells) is explained thoroughly in the spell documentation (huge notes column). I'll post it for you here for convenience:

Uses the polymorph spell flag, which unequips all worn items, disallows equipping, and auto reequips items from inventory when it ends. May equip items previously unequipped. You still need melee skill to attack well in this form. Requires Int 16 and WP of 18 to maintain. With INT 16 and WP6+ you can actually get a few turns before losing concentration. The WP-12 is to prevent spellcasting (beyond level 1 spells) in this powerful form, and that is also why it must be in the first level spell slot for Nature (otherwise it auto-cancels). The high speed might be possible to abuse in some ways, but was necessary to make the form competetive in combat.

The INT requirement is also so you can only maintain so many spells while in that form, so you can't just stack a bunch of crazy buffs on yourself. It does INT -12, so need 16 INT to have 4 left to maintain the wolf form. With 20 INT you get 1 buff to go with it. It's actually quite good in melee combat, but it doesn't make you melee skilled. If you think it should, I can certainly see why, and it can be changed. I probably didn't add it in back then because the form really is so good and I didn't want it to just give you everything.

Anyway, I appreciate the rational response and follow up. I will do the same, my friend.
 

Leonidus

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Apr 3, 2013
Messages
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I'm very logical at heart, and am not predisposed to getting crazy or emotionally invested over things which happen on the internet (as is so often the case).

I absolutely plan on changing monster placement as much as possible, without denaturing the areas. Dragons still in Lair of Bellerogrim, and so on. Entirely possible now with worldeditor for the 2.0 release.

I certainly think this will turn out ok because of something unusual which Shadenaut just did: admitted when he was wrong. I will gladly return the favor.

Shocking staff should do electricity damage. I could've added basic elec damage, but I didn't and that was an oversight. The reason I cast it out of my mind and forgot completely is because it is a hopelessly bugged weapon. Explanation from Muro's Weapon Database:
When a successful hit is done with the Shocking Staff, it deals 1-6 normal and 1-3 fatigue damage (+ the bonuses from Strength),
which means the first hit acts like a standard melee attack. After that the weapon "takes over" and 100% successfully deals 1-10
electrical damage (using up 2 batteries per hit) with each hit and doesn't stop until - Turn Based combat speaking - it runs out of the
user's APs in the round, kills the enemy or uses up all of the user's batteries.


Similarly, you can expect the Arcanum economy to still be unbalanced. I did nerf some of the worst offenders, like insane profit from some infamous crafting, but there's a lot of prices which all have to be considered together to get it even close to balanced. I can guarantee there are at least a few new ways to profit, that's just going to happen, and only a lot of testing and feedback can fix that really.

Shadenaut reported a summon had a petrify attack. If that proves to be the case, you can guarantee it's getting fixed.
 

Shadenuat

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The INT requirement is also so you can only maintain so many spells while in that form
What's the point in even having 2 shapechanging spells there? The first one requires you to have very specific build (I am level 49 near Kerghan, and I still can't cast it because I've placed 2 points into DEX to get Expert in dodge/melee with gloves of Dex and a bit in CHA), and it's a level 1 spell.
The Bear form is far from useful because you still miss most of the time in it, and your HP gets halved when you take the form.

Just please for the love of god don't play the game like Chris Avellone.
I skipped Summoning&Temporal schools on purpose because they are just too powerful, but I'm still ahead of MCA and his lass:

STR base, DEX 10+2, Con base, Beau/Cha ~14 (ring of Influence), WP 18, INT 12.
Spells:
Divination - 3, Conveyance, Nature, Earth, Air, Water, Force, Morph - Max.
Melee, Dodge, Diplomacy - Expert.

After beating game (well, almost, Kerghan is still there), I can give the short review on my spells:
Divination: Now is worth having to level 3 to check resistances, I guess. But you'll notice the pattern that most monsters are same so maybe not.
Conveyance: Kinesis seems to be a little better.
Nature: Entangle has it's uses, but that's it. Summoning is better in all respects than this school.
Earth: Stone Form gives you 95 resistance to everything. Meaning you can tank everything, except monsters who do Fatigue damage. I've met 2 - small werewolves in Dredge and Bludgeoneers in Void. Golem is useless.
Air: Any caster will get Conveyance, so Summon Winds is semi useless. Suffocate can be used to farm 1 mid-level monster and then meditate. Oh, there is also Gaseous Form, which is cheaper than Stone one, but only protects against physical damage.
Water: There's a reason I called it New Necromancy Black. +crit spell is insanely good, Acid Rain for some reason deals better damage than any other similar spell, and you can farm monsters on map using Tsunami. And you get mass +4 speed.
Force: The only reason I took it is Wall of Force, although I didn't need it in the end. Lightning bolt can't even scratch mid-to-late monsters. Desentigrate, sure, you can cast maybe 2, which would harm even late monsters, but then you are out of mana. It does 125 dam on average, an most strong monsters have at least ~300 HP.
Morph: Soften is the only really useful spell. Polymorph works strange, monster often can still kill you or your companion in a few hits. Transfigurment, yes, it drains 10 STR, but it doesn't seem to hamper monsters or bosses damage that much.

I certainly think this will turn out ok because of something unusual which Shadenaut just did: admitted when he was wrong. I will gladly return the favor.
I was speaking from perspective of beginning-to-mid game, which you should have taken as is. You know all the formulas and numbers, but I don't, I just give an opinion on how game plays with mod, that's it.

It's not consistent to balance combat for turn based and then say that player should play ~20 levels in real time.
I've seen places where your mod makes gameplay better, but I've also seen where it makes it worse and just drags the game. Companions instantly dying to monsters in 3 hits, ~3000 HP bosses, ~500 HP mid-to-end monsters, ect. All that, in my opinion, does not really change Arcanum for the better.

I like how sometimes combat made me actually think and use unorthodox spell picks (Kinesis, Soften, Entangle, Call Winds, Stone Form), but then there are places where it's just whack-whack-whack.
I'm wondering how it would feel for melee or shooting characters, I know I abandoned my techie playthrough exactly because guns are just too good, ammo is insanely easy to obtain, and you could probably kite anything to death. That's why I carried Vollinger and then Payne around - because only Dog rivals them in ability to do damage fast.

Pure melee or backstabbing, I have no idea how boring would be to stick the dagger into these meatbags of a monsters with their awesome HP and DR.

I was particularly amused by Nature Mastery quest. There's that room you are supposed to do with Charm Beast spell, full of about 20-30 Fire Jumper rats, who just rape party in any fair combat :lol: I had to clean them by sleeping/casting Tsunami 15 times.

Shadenaut reported a summon had a petrify attack. If that proves to be the case, you can guarantee it's getting fixed.
Fuck I swear these lizards do something like that, stunning their target. Reason I summoned them for fights like Boil when I tried mod for the first time. Check yourself maybe it was something else.
 
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Leonidus

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Apr 3, 2013
Messages
22
I'll try to explain balancing for spells here quickly.

Spells have a few limiting factors, the most important of which is 4 speed cost to cast in turn based. This means you can't make a more powerful spell take longer to cast, so DPS can get really out of hand easily. There are spells at the beginning which do less damage per speed but are the most efficient. There are middle/aoe spells that do more damage and are less efficient. The high end spells are very inefficient but have a huge burst effect: very high damage for just 4 speed, sometimes eliminating monsters in one turn of combat. Spell DPS is laid out in the Spell (Damage) documentation.

Also, there's no spell crits, only spell saving throws, so two of the new spells as well as FingerOfDeath and Disintegrate do a random high amount of damage (75-175 for disintegrate for example). This means you won't just be seeing the same number come out over and over again from every spell, which I think is a good thing.

Secondly, only 5 maintained spells at INT max 20. This mainly puts a limit of buffing spells for the party and summons. Many buffs were improved or changed, so as not to be overpowered/useless. No more dex cheating with agility of fire.

Thirdly, the pulse of maintained spells is so horribly implemented in turn based that it is negligible. That is, a maintained effect which pulses every second in real time takes something like 48 turns in turn based. This makes many maintain mana costs irrelevant, and maintain damage largely irrelevant, though not always. This is why maintain damage spells have some comparable initial damage to their burst counterparts.

The fourth limiting factor is spell progression, which is always 1/1/5/10/15 for spell levels 1 through 5. Every spell is available at level 15, and you have nothing more to look forward to from that spell school. I really dislike that the most, because it can make so much of game bland afterwards.

The fifth limiting factor is of course manacost and fatigue. Certain items can add mana, but you don't want too much of those or any lucky level 10 mage might have an overpowered mana pool. So, magical staves and robes can give up to 80 mana each, along with less from a few very magical weapons (I believe that's unchanged for staves, but robes previously gave no mana). Certain races get +FT% bonuses and receive -HP% to make them more wizardly. Still didn't feel like quite enough, so where can I find a good place to give would be wizards even more fatigue? The offerings to the gods blessing progression. It normally gives FT bonus only at the end I believe, but now it gives +25/50/75% for each circle (unstacking), and of course finishes at +100% at the vendigroth altar. Magic specialization halves manacost of a chosen school. This all gets noted in the readme.

Infinite fatigue from potions (or scroll casting) is essentially impossible to balance well. That's why potions and most scrolls are disabled, and fatigue reduction effects were removed. FT potions were specifically left in shops so that players would be able to read that from their item description (disabled for balance) as opposed to just wondering where they all went, which was bound to happen.

All of this together means that in order to give a caster spells to look forward to later, they have to be inaccessible because of fatigue, not level 15. This combines very well with disabling FT restore effects from potions. So, high level spells cost a lot of fatigue to use. The meditation spell was added to allow for FT regen out of combat. This does mean if you are relying on spell damage, figure out how to survive long enough to cast many efficient lightning bolts to take down a large HP monster. You will have to rest with meditate after difficult encounters. That is all the same as most classic RPG's however, where if you need your spells for damage you need to rest to get them back. A well rounded party won't suffer so, which makes follower choice a more important consideration. I should note all caster parties are still doable, it will just be harder.

This also leads to another great improvement for casters in Arcanum: putting character points directly into FT actually matters now. Especially when you get more than just 4 from +%FT effects. So a caster who wants to go pure damage output will actually build differently than one who goes for more INT for buffs or a wider variety of spells for more utility, whereas previously you could just have it all. The spellsword won't want to be elf, because of -25%HP for +30%FT, but rather half-elf for -10%HP and +15%FT. There's actually something to be gained after level 15, and you start to look forward to that Vendigroth altar or the Tulla quests.
 

Shadenuat

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So, magical staves and robes can give up to 80 mana each
Robes don't seem to work, they don't give bonus mana. I've seen swords and maces and mystic staff +40 mana, but the only real item still worth wearing is basic mage staff +50 mana.

Infinite fatigue from potions (or scroll casting) is essentially impossible to balance well.
Resource management is essential part of RPG, and your method is very crude. Can't nature of potions be changed somehow? How about giving them short term, high fatigue, unstacking regeneration boost? So their effect won't stack, but regeneration would be strong enough to matter in TB combat.
You're also screwing up techie progression in disciplines.

I like Fatigue and weapons which hurt it. I just like the idea behind fatigue in general. It makes Arcanum unique. It should be balanced instead of just cut out.

All of this together means that in order to give a caster spells to look forward to later, they have to be inaccessible because of fatigue
It doesn't make sense, if you are able to invest points into something, it should work. It's your basic design, you can't let player put skill points into something which doesn't give him rewards. That is exactly the reason I said it's better to base spell effects on magical aptitude instead, so, for example, Lycanthropy could be level 5 spell which becomes even stronger when you hit app of 100.

Speaking of which, instead of creating Meditation spell, you could as might just let player rest anywhere. At least it would take less time than waiting for Meditation to tick.

That is all the same as most classic RPG's however, where if you need your spells for damage you need to rest to get them back.
Trying to recreate Arcanum with Vancian spellcasting seems a bit crazy and would require to change game completely, encounters and rest places in particular. It seems like just too much effort to balance system in OTHER way, while you could try and balance it ARCANUM way instead.

So a caster who wants to go pure damage output will actually build differently
Theory is nice but let's count.

the-count.jpg


I am crap at math, but even I can do that somewhat.
Your lightning bolt does 17.5 dmg on average. I can shoot out 4 lightning bolts per round with my average dex and +speed items. I do 70 damage. Not so bad? But average late game monster has ~300 HP. Boss can have 2000 HP and more. Even if I survive (say I go into Gaseous Form), and have enough fatigue (which I won't, shooting boss with lightning would cost me about ~800 fatigue), I would have spend about 4 turns for any basic mob (and there are DOZENS in standard Arcanum dungeon), or 100 turns or more on boss. That would require SOME PATIENCE to clean one dungeon or kill anything else with this shit.
Meanwhile, I can shoot with LGR 2-3 times per turn in basic build and do crits for +100-200% dmg.

So, yeah, that. That is the reason I prefer just throwing dog on monsters than even bothering with damaging spells, unless I just want to farm monsters to gain a few levels.

This is actually so important it's strange noone even tried to figure out how to fix that in mods. In Arcanum, character with highest damage gets most XP. It's not like in Fallout, where you companions can farm XP for you.
The moment somebody would change XP formula, like giving more xp from companions based on Charisma, many MCA's would become very happy MCA's. It's probably not possible but it's one of the strangest and weirdest problems which troubles Arcanum.
I'm not even sure what design were developers following when they made it that way. Maybe they thought XP from quests would balance XP from combat out, but it doesn't work that way, because you can solve most quests without non-combat skills...

altars; Tulla mastery quest
This is not what magic should be in general based on, gods quest is optional and few players would ever finish it, and I myself find it just too much of a chore to finish it for every playthrough; Tulla is endgame, after that there is only the Void. Halving fatigue cost for some spells may break them but it doesn't really matter, because there is just mindless slaughter with lizards and lanterns ahead, or a quick run with final persuasion check.

____________________________________________________________

killed Kerghan. 6000 hp. whack whack whack. although it was p. same in vanilla so no grudges there.
I'd wish to play as a techie but because so many items in mod have retarded recipes, are underpowered and it would be just too straightforward (shoot 'em with some gun), I don't want to.
Eh for techies I really wish:
1) Switching guns would make sense
2) Grenades should be powerful
3) Traps should be good too
4) Arachnids should run faster :oops:

Techies are really screwed in Arcanum because they must dump their points into disciplines. They need the most skill points from all playthroughs. You want high STR to carry your junk around and wear cool armor, DEX to fire fast, PER to FIRE, INT to make schematics, and tons of points more to get schematics.
Eh. Techies should have a background "Techie" which would give them 1 bonus skill point per level...
 
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gunman

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,050
Leonidus, how can you explain this:

Wooden ring in arachnid recipe

It doesn't make any sense. Can't you create a new item which can be explainable in a schematic?
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Eh I'll spare Leonidus from extra work, cause I'm on the roll and luv Arcanum and thingies~~

It doesn't make any sense. Can't you create a new item which can be explainable in a schematic?
I believe his points are:
1) He only used static tables to change variables in the game. Without editor he couldn't create or change ingredients for schematics so he chose the rarest ones.
2) He wants unique and rare ingredients for most powerful of schematics.

I made a few counter-arguments somewhere up there. I don't believe basic schematics should have super rare ingredients, because player spends skill points on them. And rare schematics can be balanced out just by their placement in the gameworld.

But yeah it's very derp in his original mod. Wooden ring is nothing. You need Bessy Toon mine document to make Regenerative Jacket. Meaning it breaks vanilla quest! That's really bad.
 
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Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,787
who would have expected at the time that the heritage of Troika would be a bunch if insane modders

also, whenever someone explain seriously he's mostly logical at heart, I'm reminded of YouTube modders who try to start and close an argument by explaining they are genius level intellects, that never bodes well
 

Leonidus

Novice
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
22
Wooden ring in arachnid recipe

It doesn't make any sense. Can't you create a new item which can be explainable in a schematic?

No, I couldn't. It's all done with editing what's already in the game. I had to balance the game only by changing what already exists. For 2.0 I should be able to though, because 1) Jaesun released what seems to be a promising tool for creating new prototypes 2) worldeditor to place the new item into the game.

The reason I didn't just use any component was for balancing. You shouldn't be able to get great things early which make all your alternatives pointless. The mere fact that you do spend points for those special items means they out of necessity need to be better than what's available. That then means they need to be available at some point beyond the beginning of the game. Note that there's still better starter guns you can craft yourself, but the higher tier ones shouldn't be available until at least mid-game (like at Qintarra) to balance the game. So, I made a list of the only items which could work with that. Divided them into what stages of the game they are restricted to, and went from there. They are pretty much all weird items which don't give great options for their own reasons: wine glass, empty vial, full stillwater trap, real stillwater pelt, heartstone, wood ring, some vendigroth items at the end. It's all weird items because regular items can be found all over (or couldn't be used as schematic components), there's nothing to stop someone from getting it at any time.

There's even more to it than that, like some I wanted to make unique creations, so at least 1 component had to be something of which only 1 exists in the game.

Same thing is the problem for schematics too Shadenaut. There's a lot of sharing between cities for shop files, so there was no way to prevent the blacksmith in caladon from having the same schematics as the wheel clan, etc. It's literally divided into urban smith, rural smith, rural alchemist, city alchemist, etc. That's why what's in Tarant is usually what's in Caladon. This is also why schematics which are only found don't face a similar issue: they already require you to get to that area, so there's already a restriction in place.

Robes don't seem to work
They give the extra mana, but it doesn't show. Rest for a day and you can see what I mean. It doesn't interfere with the mana that does get displayed from staves too, you get both.

I've seen swords and maces and mystic staff +40 mana, but the only real item still worth wearing is basic mage staff +50 mana.
Battlemages, my friend.

If I remember right, you can still carry extra +mana items and swap them out for free extra mana too. It's Arcanum you know, can't unbreak everything. There's allllways a way.

It doesn't make sense, if you are able to invest points into something, it should work.
Only the very last spells in the school have really high cost, with few exceptions like summoning so that the demon isn't always available super early. If I could change the spell level requirement formula, I would have. But this is the only way to restrict really strong spells. If the choice is between have an unbalanced balance mod with powerful spells available at level 15, or have weak disappointing spells available at level 15, or balance the game by restricting the highest spells through manacost, then it's an easy choice to make.

That's why stun and 3 meta magic spells and stasis are disabled. I have to unbreak this game as much as possible, even if you have to live with 74 good spells instead of 80. If I left stun in, everyone would be asking well why did he keep that so obviously rigged? One is blatantly worse than the other, but neither are perfect.

That is exactly the reason I said it's better to base spell effects on magical aptitude instead
You're breaking your own rule of following Arcanum game logic here. Shapeshifting doesn't increase with MA, so mine don't. It's important to keep in mind why most spells that are low level are MA dependent: it's really easy to get high MA really fast. Which means by your preference a caster could easily blow everything away around level 20 no problem, if they tried at all, which is too close to regular Arcanum spell casting for my tastes (as in horribly unbalanced). This is also why the highest level damage spells are usually not MA dependent.

Speaking of which, instead of creating Meditation spell, you could as might just let player rest anywhere.
I think the only file that deals with anything like this is the one which prevents teleporting from/to certain areas. (Void, Isle of Despair)

I am crap at math, but even I can do that somewhat. Your lightning bolt does 17.5 dmg on average.
Firstly, you're criticism is that a single caster might not be able to bring down every boss. That is not a bug, that is a feature. Some bosses do have lower hp, like 1000-1500 which can be burnt through much easier by a really powerful high level (45-50) pure damage wizard.

Secondly, you are tragically mistaken here on the power of casters in the game. You must keep in mind, I have played this mod a lot myself, I know the different playstyles can all do just fine for anyone who makes a reasonable effort.

Lightning bolt is actually MA based so it goes up to 25 every time at 100 MA. A level ~48 gnome/elf wizard can easily have ~330-350 mana with 0 extra points into fatigue. That's including at least a few points into charisma, full 20 dex, 2 in melee, 3 in persuasion, and 20 spells of their choice to get a guaranteed 100 MA. Not the most hardcore wizard.

With specialization, that mana is effectively doubled in this pure-damage simulation (because if you're going to try to down a boss with one wizard, you'd better specialize in a good damage dealing school). This means with lightning bolt only, you've got 1750 damage output. Electrical damage mind you, which is usually favored in resists. That's a lot of castings though, about 70 (14-15 rounds). Even with the least efficient damage from lightning, disintegrate spell, you're looking at 9 casts (2 rounds), and 1125 average damage.

That's all without any extra points into fatigue, with some points in charisma, melee, and persuasion. It would only take ~5-8 extra character points spent instead on fatigue to break 400 FT, allowing for the full 2000 damage from lightning bolt.

Throw in 80 mana from arcane robes and another 80 from arcane staff and you're golden. That's just extra though. Tulla is a great place for finding (stealing) those items if you really need the extra punch.

Also:
100 turns or more on boss
Only 20 speed per turn is 5 casts per turn, which would be 20 turns not 100. And you can push speed closer to 30 on a caster pretty easy from 20 dex + enchanted boots bought at any magic shop (few thousand gold though).

Its almost like I thought this whole thing out.

Maybe give me a bit more credit. You'd be surprised how many of your other unaddressed complaints are even simpler misunderstandings. Might be the bad at math thing. Wouldn't hurt to read the readme, maybe some documentation too.

But changing monster AI to make monsters do more interesting attacks? Now there's a good legitimate complaint. Wish I could help us there. I'm hoping with maybe some new special scripts, maybe some tricks in the world editor I can pull it off in 2.0. That one's been on the list for a while, trust me. I'm pretty sure that's something you guys can look forward to.
 
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gunman

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,050
Wooden ring in arachnid recipe

It doesn't make any sense. Can't you create a new item which can be explainable in a schematic?

No, I couldn't. It's all done with editing what's already in the game.

That's too bad. Such things are out of place and break immersion like the car in carcanum. Together with the fact that combat shouldn't be important at all (btw, can a pacifist beat your game with your mod? can a no-reload run be completed?) these kind of mods are a total waste of time IMO.
 

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