AoD merchants quests

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Your guild is getting attacked not because you opened the scroll, but because you stole something important without realizing it. When you open and read it, you understand what you've stolen and understand that there would be consequences and prepare for them.

Like? I don't believe that the kingpin would be intimidated, but give it a try.

For example?

My main problem is the reliance on persuasion. In the first quest, disguise would fit in nice. It would also be nice if you could betray Linos early on, maybe you could sneak into Linos room and find out something personal.

I also like to see some options to save Nessa somehow. Maybe you find out Nessa is involved and you switch her out for someone less important. Nessa would owe you one then.

Pretty much any option that isn't persuasion.

Good point.

Ok. You open it. It's a loan document. The merchants guild gave 200k in gold to House Daratan to sponsor a war Antidas is dying to fight and you've stolen the only proof of it. House Daratan wouldn't mind to destroy the documents, House Aurelian wouldn't mind to take a look at the document, and the Merchants Guild wouldn't mind to recover the document. And if all that stands between them and the scroll is your guild...

Reload time?

Well, I can see why people had issues with that. I assumed the massacre would be a consequence of a risky choice, and later in the game. It appears to be a somewhat unfortunate combination of punishing conservative behaviour and an extreme - unforseen - consequence that may severely impact the gameplay. Now I also understand a comment you made before that a player thought the consequence was a bug.

How about this for a usage of both streetwise and intimidation in quest 1:


How can I help you, my friend?
Who are you?
A humble trader who's willing to offer good prices to his friends.
Can I see your wares?
Most certainly
I need some iron ore. Do you have any?
Are you a craftsman, my friend?
Yes
No

Yes - I'm honored by your presence then. Perhaps, you can help me. I've found a rare piece of ore here. Can you tell me what it is?
[crafting skill check - fail]I'm not really sure.
It's iron, my friend. You know, that ore you were so interested in buying...
*A dagger appears out of nowhere* I find it odd that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. Don't you?

[crafting skill check - pass]I hate to disappoint you, but that's iron ore. There's nothing rare about it.
My apologies for testing you in such a manner, but strangers asking questions don't come here everyday. Talk to Danos at the marketplace and tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.

No - Why would you need ore then? *A dagger appears out of nowhere* I find it odd that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. Don't you?

*run*
*fight*
[persuasion]Easy there. I know someone in Maadoran who's interested in a shipment of iron ore, but doesn't want to pay what the merchants guild sells it for. So, what was that you said about a shipment of ore missing?
<fail> I said that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. *attacks*
<success> Alright. Talk to Danos at the marketplace and tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.
Alright. Find Danos at the marketplace tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.
[intimidate]*pull out your own weapon* I know that pulling out that dagger makes you feel like a big man, but you might want to rethink getting into a fight, if you value your life.
[weapon skill check- failure] *You drop your weapon while pulling it out.* You expect me to be scared of you when you can't even handle your weapon? *attacks*
[intimidate fail] I don't scare that easy *attacks*
<success> Alright. Find Dude x. He'll have some ore for you.


The player has the oppertunity to either return to Linos with whatever info he's learned, right or wrong, and "end" the quest. If he gives the wrong info, Linos could either knows right off that you've been had, ending the quest line, or he rewards you, and wastes some time following this lead, seriously pissing him the fuck off later. Alternatively, the player could check up with Dude x, and see if he was told the truth; then, he could go back and confront Cado to find out the truth.

Nope. That's the point.
Player 1, who doesn't mind loading a lot: He gets the scroll, he's told not to open it. It might contain nothing interesting, it might have bad consequences if he opens it, or it might have good ones. Tough choice. So he saves the game, then opens the scroll. If it's better to open it, he plays along, if he's better off not opening it, he reloads. He opens the scroll, he sees it's beneficial to do so, so he plays along. It wasn't a difficult choice.
Player 2, who wants to roleplay, live with his consequences, and doesn't like reloading: He is told to steal the scroll. He must not open it, or he and the guild don't get paid. Now, how the fuck does it make sense for him to go through the trouble of stealing the scroll, only to ruin the whole thing by opening it? There are two logical options - don't do the quest, or do the quest exactly as you are told. Opening the scroll is a pointless option for him.
Now, player 1 isn't as important, because he doesn't play the game as it should be. But one of the possible paths is available only to him, and not to player 2, who is the target audience. Furthermore, that particular path is decidedly the best out of the two.
The answer is, give player 2 a reason to open the scroll. Give him clues that the scroll is either dangerous, and should be opened, or that it is worth more than what the guild is going to be paid, so you should keep it for yourself/the guild, and open it.

Ok, since you asked, here are my thoughts on it.

Overall, I think the questline is interesting. No need to throw it out.

I have to re-raise some issues that were already brought up though. The questline terminates if I see it right if you can't either pass the crafting or the persuasion checks in quest 1. Especially for an early quest, i thinks thats a bit harsh, becasue it may conflict with what the player expected he would need to be trained/good in (trading, charisma). I WOULD prefer if there was at least one differenct option to advance here (e.g. trading, for example doing another deal with Cados first to gain his trust), and/or again using charisma.

Playing this, I would definitely have gone to find the trader that cados sends me to before going back to Linos (to maybe learn about even more poeple involved with the guild). You need to tie up that end with some dialogue, even if it leads nowhere.

An option to blow the whistle on Linos (obviously burning your standing with the merchants) after the assassination to gain favour with the nobles would be nice - very risky, since you were involved yourself, but maybe something for someone with very high persuasion, etiquette, and charisma.


Another question: Can the player already be a member of the thieves while doing this quest? Is that option covered?

And also: How do I find Cados? Are there rumours that lead me to him?

Following this logic, players play games to have a good time and win them, so games shouldn't be hard and shouldn't punish the player for his/her mistakes (intentional and unintentional).

Anyway, the reason the guilds are in is not to give someone an option to play as a thief, but to show the world and to tell a story of that guild. The player gets to craft that story through his actions. It could be a long story, it could be a short story. That's life.

Overall, such consequences are an integrate part of the thief experience, imo. You steal stuff from people. You should realize and be prepared to a simple fact that some people will not be ok with that and will have enough power to hit back and attempt to recover what you'd stolen. This aspect is almost always missing from games. If you succeeded in stealing something that's where it ends. I tried to do it a bit differently. In the thieves questlines, the guild will be hit several times and many guildsmen (people you'd know and deal with) will be killed. Why? Because it's a thieves guild, not a country club.

You probably misunderstood. First, not an entire faction line, only the Teron's "branch". Second, your guild is destroyed if you return the scroll unopened. It's reading the scroll that gives you a chance to save it. So, it's the other way around.

They have no rivals at this point. The former rivals are either dead or were forced to join the guild. The thieves could have hit them harder before, but didn't want to escalate things and lead to a war they couldn't win. However, when Linos became a guildmaster and started targeting the thieves guild, things changed. When Cado saw that Linos was willing to blow up the caravan, he had no choice at this point.

See my previous post. The third paragraph.

You are in the thieves guild. You are talking to the guy who runs it. His buddies are watching you. What are the odds that you can intimidate Cado and force him to tell you anything?

Let's say I tweak the text, removing any "oh shit!" sentiments. Let's try again. He opens it. It's a loan document. What do you do? Still an easy choice?

When people tell you not to open something, that's the most convincing reason to open it. No? Don't open it = I'm hiding something from you. Good reason to find out what.

I disagree. What's missing from many RPG is an option to forget about instructions and do something completely different.

Like what? Give me some ideas.

PS. Should I post the quest for discussions?

Well, it's not unreasonable to expect an "aspiring merchant" to have decent charisma and persuasion. If you choose Merchant as a background, you get a bonus to Persuasion, so I don't see a problem here. Then there is a vignette where you're send to hire the assassins guild to kill an independent merchant, so you get a feeling of what the merchants guild is about:

Linos:
I can't believe that this bastard Gracius dared to come to Teron after all. It's an insult.

Gracius?

The fat merchant, remember? We caught him peddling his wares in Teron six months ago and threw him out. Well, he's back in town again. Talk to Neleos, the guildmaster of the assassins. Ask him to take care of this problem for us. Here is the money, 300 imperials should be more than enough. Make sure he tells Gracius "The merchants guild wishes to remind you that you're *still* not welcome in this town" before they cut his throat or whatever it is they do to kill people.

1. You'll kill a man for trading in your town?
You are overdramatizing the situation. Did the merchant give me any choice? No. If I do nothing now, tomorrow ten merchants will open shops here without paying the guild. We must protect our interests.

2. What about the laws?
What about them? I'm not asking you to steal his purse, I'm asking you to pay the assassins to kill him. Must I do everything myself?

3. I'll talk to Neleos.

I would too. Help me find it.

You can talk to the trader (to verify that he does have the shipment).

They wouldn't care much. If you noticed Damias said that the guild's noble partners "weren't impressed that Berias' courtesan was killed in such a vulgar fashion." Key words: "not impressed" and "vulgar fashion", not "killed".

No, you can't be. You must have negative or 0 reputation with the thieves to work for the merchants.

You ask around for a good deal, as Linos tells you.

Question: What happens if Cados dies in the first quest? Any consequences?

Yes.

I don't think threatening is really an option really because, in order to do business with Cado, he must trust you. Even if you were to successfully threaten him, he would backstab you as soon as he got the opportunity (or at least this is the impression I got from the character).

There are a lot of things that could work here, but my favorite is blackmail. If Cados had some dirty secret the player can find (perhaps by being threatening to the right npcs) he would be able obtain some incriminating evidence and have the upper hand over Cado.

Perhaps he would still need to use etiquette, or end up being so blunt that Cado tries to kill him on the spot. Notice that having such information would give the player power over Cado on all interactions, but it might be balanced by having Cado send some assassins after the player between the quests.

Also, I think alchemy skill should be tested too (with a higher penalty), as an alchemist should probably be familiar with various substances.

I like the idea of the quest, and I think this might make it more reasonable. However, is it clear for the player that the wiping out of the thieves is a consequence of this quest? I think a lot of people might simply assume it to be a scripted event they couldn't change.

Also, maybe the player could be made aware of the risks this kind of job entails by other thieves. No need to be direct, but maybe you could put some dialogues with the thieves where they tell stories about themselves and other members. Some of these stories might make clearer for the player that taking a job without knowing all the variables.

Another simpler option is to allow the player to fake a new seal on the parchment. This way curious players will be more inclined to check out what it is.

I don't know the exact details, but maybe something akin to this:
You go to steal the scroll from some old man's house. When you get there, you find him dead on the ground, in a pool of blood, and with a note clutched in his hand. It says "House X took it".
Then, you can:
1. Back out.
a) Cado sends someone else, the guild gets killed. Your reputation with the thieves temporarily drops, until the murdering.
b) persuade the leader the job is too dangerous - nothing happens, you get the next quest.
2. Go through with it.
a) Bargain with the employer for more money. He triples the pay. He insists that you don't open it.
b) Bargain with the employer and suggest that you might also open the scroll. He claims that you won't get anything, and he tries to get you assassinated.
c) Don't talk to him, go ahead and steal the scroll, leaving the bargaining for when you have it.

This way, the player has more reason to read the scroll. The scroll is clearly valuable and important enough, that the employer will pay you even if you open it. It's also obviously dangerous, so going blindly about it might not be such a good idea. And if the assassination attempt already happened, stealing the scroll for yourself remains the only possibility.
You also have reasons not to open it. If you do, the employer will find out, one way or another. Since even if you don't give it to him, but rather keep it, he might hear about the scroll going missing, so you'll be the obvious suspect.

You're right of course. However, I still agree with Lumpy: Gameplay is also a concern. If such a quest were placed in the last third of a game, once the player has played through many quests with his guild and formed relationships with the characters, it could have a significant emotional impact and be an interesting, dramatic consequence. Not to mention that by then, the player should have learned "the rules" and be more paranoid about whom he steals for and from.
But the way the quest has been described, it sounds more like it'll deliver a crashing blow to the player's experience before he got into the game in the first place. One relevant question is how strongly the gameplay is really affected.

I still think the quest is good in principle, but I also agree with Lumpy that some clues might be appropriate. I thought maybe a skill check rewarding players with the "right" skills for a career thief, kicking players who think they can play a thief with a strong swordarm and no wits in the nuts.*
You know, maybe just change some text to be more suggestive if you have a high enough streetwise skill or something.
Oh, and I liked what you said to Lumpy about tweaking the text to make the choice of reloading or not less of a no-brainer after opening the scroll. Maybe, you know, skillcheck the whole thing to see if the character realizes the significance of the scroll.

Well, I just read your remark that not the whole faction questline is cut, only a branch. Maybe the consequence isn't so disastrous after all. Still, I can see why people had issues with it.
So in short, I'd suggest to either make sure there are hints that this mission is particularly dangerous or move it to a later point in the game, which may not be feasible. Or maybe just leave it as it is, but seeing how you already decided to cut it before, you probably want to do something about the issues that were raised. It'd be a shame not to have the quest at all.

That sounds like a good idea.


*You know, the way I see it is, the more devoted a player is to playing a thief, the easier you should make it for him. If he wants to play a wildcard character, he should be more likely to hit a few roadblocks.

Ok I didn't mind the first time but I think this is going too far. If it is almost impossible to intimidate Cado, reflect that in the intimidation check, don't remove it altogether. See that reasoning you did to justify the check being difficult? Why don't you let the player do the same thing and realize it might not be a good idea (depending on his intimidate and fighting skills), or at worst, let them find out the hard way?
Something like this (don't mind the writing, I'm also working with the world's smartest editor and he'll fix it all in one week):

1. [intimidate] Give up the name or you're toast bitch.
1.1) {PC intimdate skill sucks}Cado: bla bla die :they attack:
1.2) {PC intimidate pretty good} Cado: What makes you think you can take on a thief master and his pals, in close quarters no less, and come out alive?
1.21) [Bluff, or something] I might not come out alive, but neither will you and a couple of your friends.
1.211){Bluff sucks}Cado: [galsiah] That's daft [/galsiah] :they attack:
1.212){Bluff good}Cado: bla bla KC has the iron bla bla.
1.2121) [Streetwise] Don't lie Cado or you die.
1.21211) Cado: bla bla ask Danos bla bla.
1.3) {intimidate skill awesome} Cado: bla bla ask Danos bla bla. (No tricking here since IMO Cado is intimidated enough to think you'll walk over his guild and whoever else and kick his ass if he lied to you.)

First, this way the game hints at taking notice of a situation's particulars, and how they are reflected in skill checks ( I hope they are), thus enticing players to think through before attempting dumb shit in the future. Second, you still retain the difficulty of the intimidation route, since you must either have great intim., or decent intim+Bluff+Streetwise to succeed at it. Third, I think tricking the PC when they are dumb enough to trust a master thief who they're threatening to kill is a good way to teach them a lesson.

Anyway, if you don't like my super awesomely killer quest suggestions, you clearly suck, but still, don't take away skill checks when they are relevant (like in this case, since there's at least two people who thought it should be available).

This is great. I second it.

Me third it. Also a disguise option.

Not really. A game which is too punishing frustrates the player and he quits. A game which is too easy bores the player and he quits. Good game design lies in the middle.

Ah, not so bad then. Still, I think a player should get a chance to foresee the conseqences of his actions, and be allowed to affect those consequences through roleplaying during the event.

Let me illustrate with an example. Say you are exploring a maze. You come to a decision point, left or right. Now, if there is nothing to distinguish either branch but when you go left you run into a trap which knocks you to 10% health or even death, with no way to avert it, and when you go right you are fine, it is lame and frustrating. Never mind that in real life maze makers would build their maze so that people wouldn't see traps coming. People play games for a fun experience, not to be confused with a danger free experience. Frustration isn't enjoyable. Relatively small choices which leads to massive punishing consequences aren't enjoyable.

Now lets alter the maze a little. Maybe there are blood marks leading to the left, or clues beforehand, or a spot skill the player can use. Now it's more like a game and less like game of russian roulette. The player has a chance to see danger coming. Its a challenge, and the danger is real, but you can enjoy the challenge more.

And now, finally, lets top it off by changing the trap. Now its an Indiana Jones like rolling boulder, which means if the player is quick enough they can find a niche to hide in or climb up to the ceiling or something. Now the player has both the ability to see danger coming, and a chance to deal with that danger through gameplay. Now it is enjoyable, without being "too easy".

This is what I meant. Your game plot is a "maze" for the player to navigate. Too punishing and they won't enjoy it, too easy and they won't enjoy it. I honestly believe minor alterations to the scenario you suggested could make it more enjoyable without destroying the spirit of it.

1000th Post!

I completely agree with Naked Ninja. Some kind of hints, based on the player skills, should appear. Perhaps an intelligence check to see something "strange" when you are tasked with the delivery (like a "sense motive" check"), or something along those lines. Perhaps we should be able to make better suggestions if you post the quest.

Except that the player couldn't know this beforehand. For all a character could care, (s)he could attempt to bribe Cado, which could lead to Cado pretending to fall for it and say OK to your face, only to corner you later. With that in mind, if there would ever be an option to turn against Linos that early, this would be the time.

Sounds goofy and out of character and narrative.

Who else thinks "arse" might suit better than "ass" in this sentence, and in general? Note that this is not a concern about language-period at all.

A little like Barry London. I agree with this suggestion.

I kind of agree with Sovy here, but what about realizing Linos lying through skills? Shouldn't the player be given a chance to notice something un-convincing about his response here, so that the PC can still give the finger?

A couple of things:

1) Isn't it sort of out of character that Cautious Cados got his guild smashed in that one quest to get the document? You had to persuade him to just buy some iron ore from a "third party" character, Danos. Then do it again just to move the iron ore out of Teron. You'd think Cados would know what he was stealing, would have measures in place to make sure the thieves guild doesn't get hit hard and have enough eyes and ears in the town of Teron to know if somebody is coming for him and his men.

Unless someone on the inside gave away information detailing the location of all of Cados' agents, spies and thieves it would be a real stretch for the guild to be destroyed so suddenly.

2) Nobody wants some pursesnatcher going through their documents and possibly blabbing about it at the pub. Or maybe there is a seal on the document that, if broken, would look like it has been tampered with or forged.

What I find strange in that thieves quest is that, is the player the only means (as a guild member) to achieve the end (theft of the scroll), or move the story line? Is there an option to turn down that quest? If yes, what happens then? Whether you're no longer welcome in the guild, or just need to work in another town for the guild, that quest will theoretically be there, up for fulfillment, with or without you. So, what will happen to the scroll without your involvement? Whether you had any contact with the guild at all or not, will you hear the guild being hit hard, or perhaps not hear anything at all (probably indirectly pointing to the guild having read the scroll)?

If there weren't a seal, then the choice of reading it or not wouldn't have any significance for the player, or any meaning within the game world at all. Just read away, since no one will know, no?

An option could be reading the scroll, informing the guild about the situation, the guild forging the seal and making staff adjustments to face the blow with minimal and as insignificant casualties as possible, only to play the unaware innocent later on.

edit: I suggest being given some title like "threadkiller" as I notice that many threads I post in, seems to die off right there, warranting a lack of further interest.