AoD - first 3D screen

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Shevek's right - the terrain looks like a sheet of paper, way too level.
Tents look as made of foil. Regular canvas tents are set up with tension so they are semi-rigid.
Greenery tends to grow in clusters in real life. Shrubs look carefully planted around the camp.

Im getting to this thread late, but here goes.

Here are some reasons people used the word "cartoony"
1. Textures look flat, low res.
2. Models look rounded, not realisticly shaped.
3. Proportions of body parts could be more realistic.

That having been said, you have achieved something here that 99% of posters will never achieve. GREAT WORK.

Glad to see there are other Torque users out there. Are u using TSE or TGE? (We're using TSE but its not finished and has terrible bugs).

Id love to comparte Torque scripting notes when you have the chance.

Great work.

My two cents,
I like a lot the character model, if the animation stay as smooth as in 2D the is great. I like them much more then the ones in prelude to darkness, that was an example of 3d that I did not like.
I agree that you should implement shadows, would give character to the whole thing.
The only problem I have is with the colors, a bit too bright and indeed cartonish, both forest and characters. It is all a problem of the atmosphere your whole word is supposed to have.
if it is an heroic tale of knights and dragon hunting and pricess rescuing then this palette might be fine.But if,
as I guess, is a grim story in a world that saw better times, then this palette and the atmosphere it offers really do not fit. I actually had the same problem with the 2d graphics you showed before.
I am not saying to add a lot of visual detail. I would use spiderweb approach, introduce a new environment with a well written text box and add a few objects that fit with what you wrote.
For example the slime factory in avernum3 was presented as a stinky dirty pit, and in the dungeon there spot of dirt and trash everywhere, no other major difference for the other dungeons in the game.
This worked very well with me, of course you need "customers" actively prone to a cheap "supsension of disbelief", but anyway with your resources you have no chance to please a graphich whore that needs soil erosion modeled to feel involved.
All in all, keep up the good work, I really like it and I am much less worried about the switch to 3d then I was before.

Again, the only problem is texture design.
It just has to be more realistic. The models are fine. But the textures are alost nonexistent right now, it's as if it's just matte coloring.

Thanks for the feedback and criticism. So, overall, you are bitching about:

1) The LEGO effect
2) Lack of shadows
3) Too cartoonish
4) Models issues (skirts are too tight, golden plate is too bright and shiny, not enough colors and dents, etc)
5) Unrealistic environments and tents that are not up to the tent industry standards.

Now, I agree with everything, and we'll tweak the first 4. My question to you is should we worry (read it as "should we waste time on") about #5? How important realistic tents, properly planted flora, and soil erosion in an RPG? Imo, as long as people understand that this fine object is a tent, and it looks like most of you did, it's good enough for me.

Remember, the question here is not "are these the most awesome and ubar realistic graphics you've ever seen in your life dedicated to worshipping particle effects and latest video cards", the question is "does that look decent enough for me to enjoy this game". If the answer is no, then we'll pay more attention to details.

Anyway, more opinions please.

Thanks

TGE. It comes with some issues too, but than again, what doesn't.

Sure.

Nobody here's is asking for the next Oblivion and obviously it isn't the most important thing to have realistic tents, etc. But now they don't even look decent. I haven't seen your 2d tents but I'm willing to bet they are much more fleshed out and don't stick out of the environment like a sore thumbs. I guess the overall point is that average 2d still looks better than halfway decent 3d.

I think #1,#3 & #4 are all the same issue - lack of texture art - aren't they? This is where your analysis of 3d or 2d is going to be made - by benchmarking making textures.

#2 should be handled by Torque I hope, and I agree with you regarding #5 - I thought it was all okay and you should be able to convert your current 2d maps to 3d like this pretty easy.

That's not the impression one might get

They're real(istic) and they're spectacular

Something I want to mention. Here is the first 2D screen:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/screenshot.php? ... alogue.jpg
Here are some screens posted after we paid attention to all the criticism:
link 1
link 2

You should expect to see the same level of improvements and visual difference when we address your criticism.

If you only wanted people to be able to tell what an object is supposed to be why did you even make the switch to 3D? People are going to be more critical about crappy 3D than they would well made 2D.

Not to shock the gaming world with wondrous visuals, that's for sure. We switched for several reasons, models and animations would be #1. 3D, while introducing some issues - you all agree that 2D characters looked better, removes all limitations in regard to equipment, animations, and poses. As you can see from the screen, one guy is sitting, the leader's pose is different, etc. Now all we need is tweak and polish based on the suggestions.

As for the tents and such, I personally don't care, but that doesn't mean that I won't listen to what you have to say and won't try to improve them as well.

People are always critical. Especially around here. :wink:

VD SOLD OUT!

While I'd like the game to be out sooner, knowing that all the dialogs and mechanics and such are finished so that making ubar-partickle effectz won't impede the gameplay is very reassuring. As long as your game has a unique style or flair to it, I could care less about 2D vs. 3D. Just make a good RPG dammit!

If you want to make good, very good RPG - way to go, stick with pure representations of objects. People can immagine ASCii symbols being monsters and items in rogue-likes, why couldnt they be OK with your purely representative objects?

But, if you want to make great game. Great game like Fallout was. Unique game. Game to remember - you should pay attention also to all those graphical details giving the feeling and so on. I dont need computer games to fuel my immagination - I can read books and find that better investment of my time than playing some very abstract yet ugly games. Game can offer more than automatized PnP mechanics and storytelling. It can bring mood, atmosphere to the player, catch him in the nets of story, and give completely different experience, world. Why Fallout was so great? Not only because of many options and freedom, but also because of that great post-apoc feeling attached to everything. Every little thing in Fallout brought one and only message - I AM POST-APOC! I think your game should try to achieve the same goal.

You have proven - I guess, because havent seen any actual work - that you can handle RPG fundamentals better than most of the games out there. Now, why shouldnt you add more effort making game more and more mood-ish. A game to remember, with certain style. PLus, I think it can be achieved without much of a hassle.

You said you switched to 3D because of animations:

but because? Because you wanted more of them, because you wanted game to look prettier, better. What else you need those animations for? So, you have to agree visual part is pretty much reason for switching to 3D. And in this case, please, work more on that to make it look better and better. Dont leave it like this - half assed "those are just representations of objects" "we wanted to add more animatons...graphics are important for many players".

Uh, reality check? I do want to make a good game, but a great game, a game like Fallout? I would say that would be impossible, not on the first try. I'll do my best, but expecting and comparing AoD to Fallout is kinda silly, no?

Can do only so much without money

I needed the minimum like being able to show shields and more than 3 armor types (for gameplay purposes). What you are suggesting is way, way more than that. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't want my game to look pretty, but graphics take time, sometimes a lot of time, which is something I'm trying to avoid. Anyway, your opinion is known, if I can, I will.

Looks good overall. Slap on some nice textures for the armour and you'll make me happy. Sure, the tents may look a little cheesy, but I figure that as long as I can figure out that what I'm looking at is a tent without spending 10 seconds having to puzzle it out, the graphics have done their job.

<edit> Maybe I've missed this one on the other threads, but what consideration was given to having 3-d models on a 2-d background? Properly executed, I think this looks beautiful. Postal 1 is the first example I can think of that this was really pulled off.

Wasn't sure that we can "execute it properly".

Of course, you know it better since you are making that and, of course, I am aware that Fallout had budget and resources.

But..well..this far I got impression AoD would be better than Fallout. Not that I would like it better - I just love Fallout as piece of art, but technically - freedom, different quest solutions and so on - in this field I got impression AoD is better. Technically, no speaking of tastes. On ther other hand, I havent seen AoD, cannot judge.

Plus, remember that many things in Fallout - like talking heads for example - where really hard and expensive to make in 97/98 but nowadays are pretty easy handled. No one asks you for hour-rendered heavy 3D intro movies (those may cost a bit, imo), but you definetly could try to add the feeling, style to every game item. At least with color palette and other simple things. Nothing much, just some additional attention to details.

So, my point - models and everything is fine, but you should add some style to them. They have it already, of course, but elaborate it more. Like, if you are going for trashy setting, make armour look a bit used, with scratches, not very bright, with bumps, if you have items - make them look like taken right from trash can. And so on. Just try to add that additional info to each model/item. Maybe you were doing that already, I just havent noticed it on any of screens. Give some personality to those items. And, yet, I would defintely choose some colors to focuse on - like more gray, more sand-color and so on, so it creates some united mood. That is not that hard to do, imo.

I guess if there's gameplay advantages to going 3D this is OK. Otherwise, I'd have to say this is a big step down from the previous screens I've seen.

TBH, I'm not terribly concerned about the graphics. I just wonder when the game could actually get released and hope you don't keep changing engines.

Well the final decider for me is going to be seeing the interface layed over those 3D graphics...

I was one of the ones who were pretty damn happy with the 2D gfx (erm...I think I still do prefer them), but if it all looks "okay" in the end I'm not too worried. If it all looks totally out of place in the end - i.e. the interface over the gfx looks jarringly bad...well, who am I kidding, I'll still give it a go.

It's the gameplay that will concern me more.

Take a look then. I don't have all the files on this laptop, but here is something to give you an idea.

Link

Woah, mad soil erosion going on right there. Keep it up and you may even get PATRICK STEWART!!!

Oooh...can't give you a 100% surity - might need to see it against the graphical stylings of a "standard" scene with characters, objects, etc (obviously) - but that looks kinda pleasing...

Are you certain that mini-map should be there?
You know profeshunnal developers worth their salt don't include such promised features until a later patch, right?

The prev screens were the actual gameplay screens, the 3D screens are far from that, no more than a rough idea of a direction we are taking.

Well, thanks then.

We'll try

Sure. Next screens featuring ubar realistic, incredibly stylish characters would come with the interface and dialogue/mechanics windows.

Should we fail to improve the models, we'll cancel AoD and start developing a new HAWT AKSHUN LEGO TRANSFORMERZ game!