AoD dex' reviews

[Irenaeus II]

Great stuff VD. Nice to hear your explanations, I think the setting makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD what's the story with IG. I don't understand it, it seems to me like they're a professional army so how do they get any money, food or anything? I get the houses because they look like normal lords with peasants and stuff but IG look like soldiers only.

They were paid by the Noble Houses. Basically, when what's left of the army moved east, the Noble Houses that survived the war had to figure out what to do with them. The army wasn't strong enough to be a threat to the Noble Houses' combined might but they were too big to be absorbed by a single House and change the balance overnight. So the Charter was created, the army was tasked with maintaining order in the region in exchange for money and supplies, sort of like a large and well trained mercenary company.

Without the deal, the army would have fallen apart and turned to raiding and pillaging (see the disbanding the Iraqi army by the wise US overlords and all that followed). So it was a win/win. The army kept order, dealt with the Ordu and raiders, and left the Noble Houses alone.

Great stuff VD. Nice to hear your explanations, I think the setting makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks. We did put a lot of thought into it. At very least nothing exists just because and there are explanations for every detail, no matter how minor. Whether or not one likes or accepts the explanations is a different story, of course.

 

[Cadmus]

They were paid by the Noble Houses. Basically, when what's left of the army moved east, the Noble Houses that survived the war had to figure out what to do with them. The army wasn't strong enough to be a threat to the Noble Houses' combined might but they were too big to be absorbed by a single House and change the balance overnight. So the Charter was created, the army was tasked with maintaining order in the region in exchange for money and supplies, sort of like a large and well trained mercenary company.

Without the deal, the army would have fallen apart and turned to raiding and pillaging (see the disbanding the Iraqi army by the wise US overlords and all that followed). So it was a win/win. The army kept order, dealt with the Ordu and raiders, and left the Noble Houses alone.


Thanks. We did put a lot of thought into it. At very least nothing exists just because and there are explanations for every detail, no matter how minor. Whether or not one likes or accepts the explanations is a different story, of course.

aah yes so that's the charter thing, I read about it a few times and always forgot.
Thanks, that seems to make sense.

 

[hivemind]

He says he dreamt of the First of the Magi not that he taught him anything.

ah my bad
I read his bit a long time ago and the 'good tutors' bit kinda blended in with the First of the Magi bit.

the rest is fair

 

[MRY]

I think that you interpret the setting a certain way and it is this interpretation, not the setting itself, that you don't like.

I agree, but I think this is always true: it's a reaction with two reagents (AOD and me) and the reaction says something about both things. Obviously I bring my pretentiousness and biases and expectations, as well as my general laziness and terrible memory for details, which will tend to cause me to fill holes based on preconceptions.

For example, there is absolutely nothing that suggests that the divine spear is the Lance of Longinus (it's not a giant weapon either).

It's a mystical spear that Bennie tells you will restore his family to greatness or something, right? I believe the word "destiny" may have even been thrown in there a few times. A spear that relates to gods and destiny in a Roman setting absolutely does tie to the Lance of Loginus.

They didn't have the advanced technology before the contact with the aliens either.

That was what I thought for a while, but the more I played, the less confident I became in that original impression. For example, the combustion engine presumably predates the aliens, it would be weird if Ganezzar's skyport was built after the alien contact, the summoning ritual for the gods involved a stasis tube for the dreamer (right?). The Ghost Glove runs off fusion power, and it was a necessary part of summoning ritual. The eye implant is a pretty complicated piece of medical technology, and it was also necessary for the ritual.

I mean, it's entirely possible I missed stuff here, though, or misunderstood.

You're told that the continent was torn apart and the capital sunk beneath the waves. The game takes place in the former eastern colonies and only few Noble Houses managed to retreat there, which explains why the not-Rome has the not-Persian flavor. The Magi aren't Zoroatian priests, the cuneiform is referred to as a dead language, deciphered by the Magi and used to communicate without fear of the non-initiated understanding the message, etc.

I don't think I explained my criticism very well. I'm not able to say whether the background lore is perfect or flawed, and I wasn't trying to say that. My problem is that the setting has taken quite a number of real-world things -- cuneiform and Phrygian gear, Near Eastern Bronze Age texts and Zoroastrian priests, a city with seven not-hills and a big Colosseum, specific architectural styles and dress and nomenclature -- and then jumbled them up.

It doesn't matter that you said that Maadoran isn't the capital city. I read that line, and briefly absorbed it, and then it succumbed to the fact that Maadoran was the largest city in the world, featured significantly in the ancient lore, had seven not-hills, etc. Maadoran is inescapably Rome, and the Imperial Legion is inescapably Roman, so it's hard to say that the Empire wasn't the Roman Empire.

When you use real-world cultural elements, you get an immediate benefit (you can avoid exposition because historical knowledge fills in the details, symbols come pre-freighted with significance, etc.), but you incur a long-term cost, which is that you can only diverge from the established meaning those elements have by swimming against a fast current. Here, the setting cashes in on the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, and Byzantine plots, and that infamous Roman decadence, and the exoticism of ziggurats, and the ancient resonance of stories of the Sea People, and god names that sound like Baal and Astarte and so forth.

To give a tiny example, the detail that the Magi were using cuneiform as code totally slipped over me (I'm sure I saw the dialogue) because the Magi had a big lair that was a ziggurat and the gods had names consistent with the period of Near Eastern history where both cuneiform and zigurrats would've been in fashion, and they were writing cuneiform on tablets which adds to the feeling that it was an authentic original use.

Anyway, it's possible that I knew just enough history to be dangerous -- maybe if I knew my history better it would immediately be obvious to me how sharply you'd diverged and I would've stopped relying on history for clues, and if I knew less history I would've just taken it as flavor and nothing more. So I'm sure you're right that my problems reflect on me, but I don't think you can completely absolve AOD of using/misusing historical details.

 

[hivemind]

The Ghost Glove runs off fusion power, and it was a necessary part of summoning ritual. The eye implant is a pretty complicated piece of medical technology, and it was also necessary for the ritual.

Why do you think they are necessary for the warding/summoning ritual ?
I never came to this conclusion.
I mean

Spoiler

they are never even used if you decide to perform the ritual on yourself

 

[Commissar Draco]

Romans knew steam engine and other machines like mechanical calculators they just preferred to use slave power instead of steam power and most of those machines were looted and melted in medieval ages:



http://www.iflscience.com/technolog...ion-may-unlock-secrets-worlds-oldest-computer

Maybe the Magi should have Persian and Hindu names cause Arabs were just lucky Invaders who conquered the best parts of Rome, Persia and Indias but otherwise the setting is good fresh and free of PoE Fampyrs and such hipster elements.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's a mystical spear that Bennie tells you will restore his family to greatness or something, right? I believe the word "destiny" may have even been thrown in there a few times. A spear that relates to gods and destiny in a Roman setting absolutely does tie to the Lance of Loginus.

Nope. He says:

“A spear,” the man says reluctantly. “To reclaim my father’s throne.” He straightens up, trying to look the son of a man who once sat on a throne.
...
“It’s called the Divine Spear. It is said that whoever wields it will not be denied. I need it,” he says simply as if it explains everything.

As you can see, it's a good example of a player subconsciously replacing what he's told with his own assumptions, down to specific words that were never mentioned.

...the summoning ritual for the gods involved a stasis tube for the dreamer (right?)...

Not at all.

The Ghost Glove runs off fusion power, and it was a necessary part of summoning ritual. The eye implant is a pretty complicated piece of medical technology, and it was also necessary for the ritual.

No.

It doesn't matter that you said that Maadoran isn't the capital city. I read that line, and briefly absorbed it, and then it succumbed to the fact that Maadoran was the largest city in the world, featured significantly in the ancient lore, had seven not-hills, etc. Maadoran is inescapably Rome, and the Imperial Legion is inescapably Roman, so it's hard to say that the Empire wasn't the Roman Empire.

Maadoran doesn't have seven hills (not sure where you got it from) and it's the largest city *left* not the largest city in the pre-war world.

So I'm sure you're right that my problems reflect on me, but I don't think you can completely absolve AOD of using/misusing historical details.

Not trying to absolve. You're right that using historical names and concepts does make it harder to separate 'fact from fiction'. It does create certain associations that are very hard to break, no matter what the NPCs tell you.

Overall, your criticism is well received and I commented not to challenge your position but to comment on some assumptions.

 

[Johannes]

You're told that the continent was torn apart and the capital sunk beneath the waves. The game takes place in the former eastern colonies and only few Noble Houses managed to retreat there, which explains why the not-Rome has the not-Persian flavor. The Magi aren't Zoroatian priests, the cuneiform is referred to as a dead language, deciphered by the Magi and used to communicate without fear of the non-initiated understanding the message, etc.

I'm not saying that everything makes perfect sense but generally there is a good explanation for every item you mentioned.

I think the biggest issue with the setting is that economically, it makes no sense. How do people get fed in this world? We're told that farming villages fall to raiders all the time, making agriculture difficult. Yet somehow they produce enough to support the livelihood of these raiders, the huge IG army (look at the size of the Caer-Tor barracks), and a hive of scum and villainy logically located in the middle of the desert. Considering their tech level this should be an extremely agrarian society, but we see nothing of the sort, there's just a huge production surplus coming out of nowhere, but the IG is somehow extremely incompetent when it can't use it to stop simple raiders.

Also the IG keeping intact through all the turmoil is hard to reconcile with the fact how so much of the old technology has been lost. How did they somehow lose their records of military locations and technologies you'd expect to be extremely valuable to a military organization? To make the loss of information more reasonable you'd need a more total collapse than what we're seeing here.





And talking with the demon-golems or whatever they are in Inferiae and Zamedi certainly gave me the impression that high tech existed before the god-summoning rituals. I don't remember exactly right now, but the one from Zamedi gave me the impression that he existed before the rituals, to hear his master talk about it, something like that. I could be wrong here as I'm not checking the convos now, just working from memory here, but that's the impression I got. Am I wrong here?

 

[hivemind]

Arabs were just lucky Invaders who conquered the best parts of Rome, Persia and Indias

the famed intellectuals during the 'Islamic Golden Age' were not only Persian, many of them were of various Arab descents

also regardless what you think of current mudslimes the conquest wars in the early Islamic period were anything but luck

 

[Mozg]

I had zero doubt from the moment it was mentioned that the divine spear Bennie was after was a nuclear missile. It had a comic irony effect that I, the player, knew it was a nuclear missile, while Bennie and the PC both had no idea and probably couldn't even conceptualize such a thing, so it was two goofballs playing with a nuke. They just needed to use it to hammer a nail or something to go full Looney Tunes.

Of course, I didn't ever run across the almost Easter Eggish way of actually using it myself.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Well my Char found Pax Imperia earlier and deducted it has to be one of those Helfyre Balista Bolts warheads he read in Ship Gunner and Captain logs... BTW there is enough place to land it behind Teron Palace and city walls Komrade VD!

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think the biggest issue with the setting is that economically, it makes no sense. How do people get fed in this world? We're told that farming villages fall to raiders all the time, making agriculture difficult. Yet somehow they produce enough to support the livelihood of these raiders, the huge IG army (look at the size of the Caer-Tor barracks), and a hive of scum and villainy logically located in the middle of the desert. Considering their tech level this should be an extremely agrarian society, but we see nothing of the sort, there's just a huge production surplus coming out of nowhere, but the IG is somehow extremely incompetent when it can't use it to stop simple raiders.

It is mentioned that the IG isn't eager to deal with the raiders, which they see as a way to keep pressure on the Houses. Farming villages are vulnerable but not all of them are defenseless. You're told that when people venture out on their own to farm or mine without adequate protection they become easy targets, not that it's impossible.

Also the IG keeping intact through all the turmoil is hard to reconcile with the fact how so much of the old technology has been lost. How did they somehow lose their records of military locations and technologies you'd expect to be extremely valuable to a military organization? To make the loss of information more reasonable you'd need a more total collapse than what we're seeing here.

It is mentioned that the remnants of the army withdrew from the west (where the map shows nothing but ocean) - "The loremasters say the fighting was so fierce, the land itself was split asunder and the city (the capital) sunk beneath the waves." So those who managed to escape the cataclysm were in the eastern colonies that weren't well familiar with.

And talking with the demon-golems or whatever they are in Inferiae and Zamedi certainly gave me the impression that high tech existed before the god-summoning rituals. I don't remember exactly right now, but the one from Zamedi gave me the impression that he existed before the rituals, to hear his master talk about it, something like that. I could be wrong here as I'm not checking the convos now, just working from memory here, but that's the impression I got. Am I wrong here?

It existed before the ritual but the preparations for the ritual took a very long time. Rough timeline: contact with the Qantari who already had contact with the Gods and possessed some advanced technology which they offered 'freely' -> contact with the elder 'gods' -> development of advanced tech - > ritual - > learning from the gods - > war -> more advanced tech -> collapse.

 

[Johannes]

It is mentioned that the IG isn't eager to deal with the raiders, which they see as a way to keep pressure on the Houses. Farming villages are vulnerable but not all of them are defenseless. You're told that when people venture out on their own to farm or mine without adequate protection they become easy targets, not that it's impossible.

That still leaves the economic issue, where is all this wealth coming from? Why is Maadoran a sensible location to live for anyone?

And I remember being told a much more severe reality than just traveling being dangerous, from the Teron Innkeeper for example - he says that most farmers die violently sooner or later, or something to that effect, though that can be took as an exaggeration of what's really happening.

It is mentioned that the remnants of the army withdrew from the west (where the map shows nothing but ocean) - "The loremasters say the fighting was so fierce, the land itself was split asunder and the city (the capital) sunk beneath the waves." So those who managed to escape the cataclysm were in the eastern colonies that weren't well familiar with.

Nobody in the local military leadership had knowledge of key locations like Al-Akia or the Hangar, and what they do? That doesn't seem plausible.
To my mind this kind of ignorance would only come by with a more complete dissolution of organized society and military especially, or by concious effort to destroy evidence (which is not alluded to anywhere afaik), similar to what Gaelius wants to do with the stuff.


Now, I'm ok with suspending disbelief here, it's a game and a fantasy one at that. But I don't think the setting is as consistent as it likes to portray itself as.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That still leaves the economic issue, where is all this wealth coming from? Why is Maadoran a sensible location to live for anyone?

Relative safety, work, etc.

And I remember being told a much more severe reality than just traveling being dangerous, from the Teron Innkeeper for example - he says that most farmers die violently sooner or later, or something to that effect, though that can be took as an exaggeration of what's really happening.

Exaggeration. You can talk to a farmer in Maadoran who has a less dramatic opinion.

Nobody in the local military leadership had knowledge of key locations like Al-Akia or the Hangar, and what they do? That doesn't seem plausible.

Those were the Magi-controlled locations. Al-Akia was top secret, same goes for the hangar but for different reasons. The army remnants had no access to such information.

To my mind this kind of ignorance would only come by with a more complete dissolution of organized society and military especially, or by concious effort to destroy evidence (which is not alluded to anywhere afaik), similar to what Gaelius wants to do with the stuff.

“The Empire had good record-keeping. While I’m sure there is a perfectly good explanation of why this town isn’t mentioned anywhere, I have to admit that it’s a bit strange. I’m too old to be interested in ancient mysteries when there is so much still needs to be done in the present, but it’s almost as if all traces of it were destroyed. Except for the silly old drawing that nobody looked twice at.”

 

[Irenaeus II]

Why is Maadoran a sensible location to live for anyone?

A lot of stuff already built there, for one.

 

[Johannes]

Relative safety, work, etc.

That simply isn't enough. What's the comparative advantage to any other town in the region, the ones that aren't in the middle of the desert? Just being big in itself, won't help that remain for very long when ITZ hits. Compare to how Rome was depopulated for a good while, despite being located in a nice spot on the coast.

Usually to support cities you'd need a more centralized system of agriculture, big estates with lots of land and workers. Scattered villages pestered by raiders don't produce very much surplus and are harder to tax. But here you've got so much food pouring in to Maadoran that even professional beggars can support themselves.

Exaggeration. You can talk to a farmer in Maadoran who has a less dramatic opinion.

Yeah, I can buy that. But still I wonder whether it's good writing to make me conciously think - "either this innkeeper is retarded or the game is". Does it serve a narrative purpose to have an edgelord innkeeper?

Those were the Magi-controlled locations. Al-Akia was top secret, same goes for the hangar but for different reasons. The army remnants had no access to such information.

So who operated the Airships if not the army? Did the magi basically have a private army of their own, alongside the imperial one? The IGs still must've known about the airships at the very least, same for all the houses, finding and securing those along with other kinds of high-tech military equipment would be their number one goal if they were serious about security. Or, if they were complicit with the magi about burying this stuff, destroying it to keep it from others.


The ITZ just seems too mild for the correspondent loss of information. When looking at the amount of info the player can still find now, centuries later, imagine how much evidence there must've been just a few years after they sealed Agathoth, or a generation or two later. Even if the surviving population was smaller than now, there were organized groups at that time that could've dug up the info had they wanted.

 

[Irenaeus II]

The innkeeper is very amusing and helps set the tone for the game. About your concerns with food and economy, I'm sure there are lots of farms/plantations and livestock in the map that don't appear for sake of simplicity of gameplay. Maybe VD can redraw the map to include cows, goats and grain.

 

[Cadmus]

That simply isn't enough. What's the comparative advantage to any other town in the region, the ones that aren't in the middle of the desert? Just being big in itself, won't help that remain for very long when ITZ hits. Compare to how Rome was depopulated for a good while, despite being located in a nice spot on the coast.

Usually to support cities you'd need a more centralized system of agriculture, big estates with lots of land and workers. Scattered villages pestered by raiders don't produce very much surplus and are harder to tax. But here you've got so much food pouring in to Maadoran that even professional beggars can support themselves.




Yeah, I can buy that. But still I wonder whether it's good writing to make me conciously think - "either this innkeeper is retarded or the game is". Does it serve a narrative purpose to have an edgelord innkeeper?



So who operated the Airships if not the army? Did the magi basically have a private army of their own, alongside the imperial one? The IGs still must've known about the airships at the very least, same for all the houses, finding and securing those along with other kinds of high-tech military equipment would be their number one goal if they were serious about security. Or, if they were complicit with the magi about burying this stuff, destroying it to keep it from others.


The ITZ just seems too mild for the correspondent loss of information. When looking at the amount of info the player can still find now, centuries later, imagine how much evidence there must've been just a few years after they sealed Agathoth, or a generation or two later. Even if the surviving population was smaller than now, there were organized groups at that time that could've dug up the info had they wanted.

what the fuck is this shit

 

[Vault Dweller]

That simply isn't enough.

Matter of opinion. I started typing my thoughts on the matter, then stopped and summed it up differently.

Yeah, I can buy that. But still I wonder whether it's good writing to make me conciously think - "either this innkeeper is retarded or the game is". Does it serve a narrative purpose to have an edgelord innkeeper?

I assume you aren't a stranger to the GD and the fabled discussions contained therein. People tend to exaggerate, over-dramatize, and make a big deal out of everything, especially things like politics, religion, and immigration. It's logical that a man who lives in a small shithole would justify staying there by thinking and telling others that all other places are very unsafe. Such people can be found almost anywhere.

In general, many people are taking things the NPCs say very literally. Someone once complained that the storyteller in Teron is a lore infodump when it's nothing but a fancy tale that has nothing to do with what happened. We went for what I consider a realistic approach: people are misinformed, they lie, they project their own insecurities and beliefs, have their own agendas, etc. They are very unreliable source of info and you can't trust a single person's account.

So who operated the Airships if not the army? Did the magi basically have a private army of their own, alongside the imperial one?

Something like that. Each House had its own troops, which was mentioned in the game (what happened to Daratan's army, etc). Since the Magi were House Crassus, their army was less 'conventional' and had a monopoly on all things 'magical'.

“The Order was Crassus’ responsibility. Since it was too much for one man to oversee, a new House bearing his name was established and entrusted with continuing the work Crassus started. In a sense, House Crassus was built around the Order of Magi, both to protect the Order from its enemies and the Empire from the Order.”

The IGs still must've known about the airships at the very least, same for all the houses, finding and securing those along with other kinds of high-tech military equipment would be their number one goal if they were serious about security. Or, if they were complicit with the magi about burying this stuff, destroying it to keep it from others.

There were stories of flying ships and such but as far as everyone is concerned the ships were destroyed during the war. The ship you find is barely operational and can't be repaired. It's not a super weapon. It can be used to intimidate by implying that it's operational, but that's about it.

 

[Johannes]

The innkeeper is very amusing and helps set the tone for the game.

Hmm, I actually agree. It establishes the edginess that keeps up mostly throughout the game. I remember that discussion unlike say, the farmer in Maadoran though I remember talking to him, he was just boring. So maybe it's the trying-too-hard-to-be-serious parts that are bad, embrace the grimdarkness.

About your concerns with food and economy, I'm sure there are lots of farms/plantations and livestock in the map that don't appear for sake of simplicity of gameplay. Maybe VD can redraw the map to include cows, goats and grain.

Of course there is. But not in the wasteland where Maadoran's located.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I remember that discussion unlike say, the farmer in Maadoran though I remember talking to him, he was just boring.

He was a decent chap, very down-to-earth. Literally in his case. He did let transpire an unwarrented sense of self-importance about his job.

 

[Cadmus]

Hmm, I actually agree. It establishes the edginess that keeps up mostly throughout the game. I remember that discussion unlike say, the farmer in Maadoran though I remember talking to him, he was just boring. So maybe it's the trying-too-hard-to-be-serious parts that are bad, embrace the grimdarkness.


Of course there is. But not in the wasteland where Maadoran's located.

The farmer was a stand-out character because he was like the only NPC that talked like a nice person which made me suspect him of having some extremely sinister plan like cutting off children's heads to add them to his farmland manure.

 

[Shadenuat]

The game takes place in the former eastern colonies

Well, we kinda know how former eastern colonies that survived fall of Rome looked like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

As for what Romans were great at, I'd say it was their theory of reign - Imperium, that allowed to draw best people into it's machine, including military.

But MRY really did a better job explaining why setting doesn't feel "whole" already.
I believe AoD would have been much stronger game if it used it's historical inspirations more and better than Fallout-like fiction, personally.
Since MRY already used it as an example anyway, imagine if best parts of GoT weren't driven by decadence of feudalism and relations between characters, but by secondary boogiemen like Others/Fire God was an alien - that's final part of the game in AoD for you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, we kinda know how former eastern colonies that survived fall of Rome looked like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

Sure, if it were a historically accurate game and not a fantasy one.

Since MRY already used it as an example anyway, imagine if best parts of GoT weren't driven by decadence of feudalism and relations between characters, but by secondary boogiemen like Others/Fire God was an alien - that's final part of the game in AoD for you.

If you ask me, he's overdoing that whole 'driven by decadence of feudalism' bit. It was great in the first 3 books but then he ran out of steam. Might as well focus a bit more on the Others and the Fire God. As for the aliens, the way I see it, aliens are creatures that live on other planets and come to visit us when they feel the urge to anal-probe someone. We went for something different:

"At first there is the endless expanse of night sky, stars and nothingness, until *it* moves. A humongous shapeless something shifts in the void, a shadow cast by a being on another plane. It drifts in the galactic void like a jellyfish, tentacles trailing behind, searching, probing, reaching in all directions.

And there is your world – impossibly small, miniscule, dwarfed by the tenebrous unseen presence. The thing is at rest, but cannot be said to wait, for Time to it is meaningless. The passage of a hundred years is nothing, as is ten thousand.

One day the door will be opened."