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Any good RPGs with non-obvious dialogue choices?

Caleb462

Educated
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
55
Among my favorite aspects of my most loved RPGs is the ability to manipulate the game via dialogue, whether it means gaining XP, raising stats, opening up questlines, etc. However, it is generally a simple matter to figure out which dialogue options are the best for the objective you are pursuing. Even in a game like Planescape: Torment, which has some of the highest quality dialogue you'll ever come across in a video game... one never has to think very long or very hard about which dialogue option to choose for an XP/skill/item, etc type outcome. It reminds me of low-level multiple choice reading comprehension items on standardized exams... in which you have 1 obvious answer and three obviously erroneous ones. It's not always this clear cut, but rarely is it a difficult choice either.

So my question to the Codex is... are there any games in which choosing between dialogue options is a *true* challenge?
 

Starwars

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
2,829
Location
Sweden
Not sure if I'd call it a "challenge" but Unrest had dialogues and choices that mostly seemed to flow naturally without one choice being the winner. Alpha Protocol also tends to just have choices for you to make and often avoiding the "this is the right option!" syndrome. I also thought the timer was an excellent idea for the type of feel they were going for.

Some games have one or two "dialogue minefields" that are more difficult to succeed in but they're pretty rare.

Upcoming Pillars of Eternity doesn't have any speech skills but still plenty of skill checks and seemingly diplomatic solutions. Time will tell how deep it will go with navigating the dialogue minefield feel but it has potential to be good in that regard. Just because you go for the skill-check options doesn't mean automatically mean that you "win" the conversation at least.
 

DraQ

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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Among my favorite aspects of my most loved RPGs is the ability to manipulate the game via dialogue, whether it means gaining XP, raising stats, opening up questlines, etc. However, it is generally a simple matter to figure out which dialogue options are the best for the objective you are pursuing. Even in a game like Planescape: Torment, which has some of the highest quality dialogue you'll ever come across in a video game... one never has to think very long or very hard about which dialogue option to choose for an XP/skill/item, etc type outcome. It reminds me of low-level multiple choice reading comprehension items on standardized exams... in which you have 1 obvious answer and three obviously erroneous ones. It's not always this clear cut, but rarely is it a difficult choice either.

So my question to the Codex is... are there any games in which choosing between dialogue options is a *true* challenge?
The only two games that come to my mind are DX:HR (dialogue "battles", as long as you don't have CASIE aug) and Azrael's Tear (old and obscure, not an RPG, looks mostly like a hybrid of a point and click adventure and System Shock 1).
 

Whiran

Magister
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
641
So my question to the Codex is... are there any games in which choosing between dialogue options is a *true* challenge?
Many of the Bioware RPGs make deciphering what a dialogue option will do challenging, is that what you are looking for?

IE, when you have the following options:

A. I think clouds are nice
B. Sunsets look wonderful
C. Dawn is splendid

Where what they really mean:

A. I will punch you in the face.
B. I will run away now.
C. You give me free stuff.
 

Caleb462

Educated
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
55
Among my favorite aspects of my most loved RPGs is the ability to manipulate the game via dialogue, whether it means gaining XP, raising stats, opening up questlines, etc. However, it is generally a simple matter to figure out which dialogue options are the best for the objective you are pursuing. Even in a game like Planescape: Torment, which has some of the highest quality dialogue you'll ever come across in a video game... one never has to think very long or very hard about which dialogue option to choose for an XP/skill/item, etc type outcome. It reminds me of low-level multiple choice reading comprehension items on standardized exams... in which you have 1 obvious answer and three obviously erroneous ones. It's not always this clear cut, but rarely is it a difficult choice either.

So my question to the Codex is... are there any games in which choosing between dialogue options is a *true* challenge?
The only two games that come to my mind are DX:HR (dialogue "battles", as long as you don't have CASIE aug) and Azrael's Tear (old and obscure, not an RPG, looks mostly like a hybrid of a point and click adventure and System Shock 1).

Dialogue battles? That sounds intriguing... can you expand on what the 'battle' aspect entails? I've only played the original Deus Ex.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Arcanum does a good job of burying the high intelligence/speech/charisma options, rather than highlighting them as insta-wins. So your character stats give you more options, but don't point you to the best option -- you have to use your own intelligence, attention to the dialogue, and speculation about the motivations of the other speaker. In some ways, it's a tricky adjustment if you've been accustomed to the Bioware approach. :)
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Alpha Protocol, Pillars of Eternity. The games that have dedicated dialogue skills/charisma stats paradoxically tend to have easier to 'beat' dialogue because those skills have to be put to use.
 

DraQ

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Dialogue battles? That sounds intriguing... can you expand on what the 'battle' aspect entails?
There is a number of encounters in game where you might try to persuade an NPC.

The thing is:
  • instead of having a single persuasion check attached to a dialogue option, that might succeed or fail, you engage in a lengthy exchange with the character in question, meaning having to choose your dialogue option several times in a row
  • the flow of dialogue is not deterministic, there are multiple outcomes possible to choosing given dialogue option and those outcomes may in turn require different options to handle successfully
  • the player must observe dialogue and behavioral cues to decide which option to pick, because memorizing sequences of options isn't particularly helpful if they may or may not work at random.
Basically the dialogue isn't an exponentially branching tree, but you can imagine it as state machine, for example choosing A from initial state may cause it to go to either the state 2 or 3 (indicated by the response) and while the optimal choice in state 2 might be the option C, the same option will lead to dismal failure from state 3.

CASIE augmentation is basically an expert system building interlocutor's psychological profile that tells you how they tend to behave, monitoring how well are you doing in the conversation and allowing you to try to influence character by releasing pheromones (doesn't work on other CASIE equipped characters), which mostly trivializes dialogue "battles".

I've only played the original Deus Ex.
DX:HR is good, though not as good as the original. It has a number of crippling flaws, but there are also things it does better.
 

Eirikur

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
1,126
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I frequently feel very conflicted about the dialogue options in the Witcher games. Keep getting around 2-4 options which are all interesting, but where I can only choose one. Many are vague. You can see some examples of that in the new Witcher 3 preview as well. I like it.

Geralt-conversation.jpg
 

Caleb462

Educated
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
55
'Thank you DraQ, I'll have to see if my PC can even run DX:HR...but it's going on my "need to play" list for sure.
 

donkeymong

Scholar
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
210
Among my favorite aspects of my most loved RPGs is the ability to manipulate the game via dialogue, whether it means gaining XP, raising stats, opening up questlines, etc. However, it is generally a simple matter to figure out which dialogue options are the best for the objective you are pursuing. Even in a game like Planescape: Torment, which has some of the highest quality dialogue you'll ever come across in a video game... one never has to think very long or very hard about which dialogue option to choose for an XP/skill/item, etc type outcome. It reminds me of low-level multiple choice reading comprehension items on standardized exams... in which you have 1 obvious answer and three obviously erroneous ones. It's not always this clear cut, but rarely is it a difficult choice either.

So my question to the Codex is... are there any games in which choosing between dialogue options is a *true* challenge?
The only two games that come to my mind are DX:HR (dialogue "battles", as long as you don't have CASIE aug) and Azrael's Tear (old and obscure, not an RPG, looks mostly like a hybrid of a point and click adventure and System Shock 1).
I would also add Alpha Protokol.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
I would say any cRPG that uses a keyword parser for the conversation system or requires player input.

Filling in the blanks is always more challenging than multiple choice.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,997
Location
Platypus Planet
Geneforge 1 and 2 are pretty good in that regard. The consequences of what you say and to who aren't always obvious before you even begin talking with someone. Geneforge 3 and beyond go derp where the choices are super obvious and so they aren't nearly as interesting as the first two games.
 

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