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Zombra

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Yeah, my experience is the same as PunchBarkeepInFace. Party is around level 9 and pretty much combat is stalling and tanking and waiting for my mage to shoot Fire Bolts. OK, I'm exaggerating, the other characters do stuff too, but the mage is my true DPS hero.
 
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I would recommend this game.

It's true the combat is on the simple side. It's more complex than old classics like say Ultima V, but it is less complex than say Expeditions Conquistador. There is no crowd control, no flanking, no special melee maneuvers, etc.

This has not stopped me from really enjoying the game. I would put the value of this game as being on par with Exp Conquistadors.

Nor have I noticed any problems whatsoever with save or load times. When I was very young I used to play stuff like Temple of Apshai, Bard's Tale, and Ultima III, so maybe I am easy to please in some regards.

It's also not true that you only fight rats and roaches and stuff. Later on you will be coming up against full parties of magic users and those combats are totally different. They will silence your casters, poison you, hit you with AoE spells, weaken or slow you, "confuse" you, etc. You typically need spell counters or counter acting potions to win this type of battle. That being said, this is definitely not a game to buy if you are looking for deep and fulfilling tactical combat. Also, the combat can definitely get tedious.

I have been thinking that if they make a sequel or similar game in the future, they should add tactics like flanking or attacks of opportunity. It has occurred to me that this might also open up a can of worms with the AI. The AI is pretty shitty as it is. There are some combats where you can cheese them by running to the other side of an obstacle (for example, a small pond) and rain arrows down on the hapless foes who are stuck up against the far shore. Enemy path finding can obviously be improved. Introducing more robust tactics would be an improvement but would probably lead to a lot more work having to be done on the AI.

Those are the cons though. Overall I am very happy with my purchase. Admittedly I was looking for an RPG on the simpler side. I work a lot and have young kids. I tend to get addicted to RPGs and play them till 4 AM, which doesn't work out for me too well when I have to get up at 6 AM. I purchased Serpent in the Staglands just before buying Antharion and the game was just too complex in the startup and I said screw it, I will play this one later when I have time to read instruction manuals. With Antharion I was able to jump right in.
 
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Yeah, my experience is the same as PunchBarkeepInFace. Party is around level 9 and pretty much combat is stalling and tanking and waiting for my mage to shoot Fire Bolts. OK, I'm exaggerating, the other characters do stuff too, but the mage is my true DPS hero.

It's kind of embarrassing to admit, but my characters were level 10 or 11 before I even added any additional spells. Is this how you are playing it? My healer started with Minor Heal and my mage had Fire Bolt. Gold is tough to come by and I was mostly spending it on my archer and knight I guess. Once I started getting other spells I could see how effective they are. But in this game there are always a ton of things you would love to buy that you cannot afford.

I am level 21 now. Once you start pick-pocketing people, you can really rack up the XP. Right now I am basically going town to town and picking everyone's pocket. Screw saving the world.
 
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Some other random thoughts.

1. anyone know what a potion of vigor does?

2. is there something to do with Greta's key? I stole it from her (picked her pocket). There is no chest in her house or garden. I didn't find any chest or door in the sewer beneath town (which is close to her house). I checked her lover's house too and found nothing.

3. If you are new to the game, save before talking shit to NPCs, even if you have just fulfilled a quest for them. A couple of times I have selected the obnoxious dialog option (just because I am a completionist and wanted to see what the response would be), only to be attacked. One time I cleared a dungeon, came out and insulted the quest giver. She kicked my ass. I had to go back like a half hour of game time, finish the quest again, then save scum, insult her and kill her (took 2 tries cause first time she critical hit one-shotted my fighter despite all my preparations.)

4. One of my characters is a Wolfkin Knight (one handed weapon/shield melee fighter). I went with Wolfkin because they have the highest CON score (most HPs) and 2nd highest strength. I figured he would be a great tank. My other characters were a Thief (planned him as Thief/Archer), a Healer (planned as Healer/Archer) and Mage so this guy's role was gonna be to soak up most all of the incoming melee action. If I had to do it again I would try an Orc Barbarian. Orc's have a little bit higher STR but a little bit less CON. And the Barbarian build comes with two handed weapon skill rather than one handed (you can also choose to customize a class yourself but I went with the templates). It seems to me like there are way better drops of two handed weapons. My knight or fighter or whatever was using a steel mug until like level 7. That weapon had a damage rating of like 5. Meanwhile all of my non-melee chars had two handed weapons with damage ratings of 11+ as backup. You can find a shitty club with a two handed dmg rating of 11, but early on all of the one handed swords do less than half as much dmg. The early shields were also crap. Obviously it is by design that two handed weapons do more damage, but it went far beyond that. I had magical two handed stuff that barely got used while my fighter was using a steel mug. And his buckler was pretty crap. It's not so bad later in the game, but I can't help but think that the Barbarian template would be a lot more effective given the ubiquitous nature of kick ass two handed weapons. In addition, most all clubs, hammers, axes and maces are classified as two-handed weapons. Anyone have any experience with Barbarian vs Fighter builds?

5. Is there any reason to drink sludge?

6. Is alchemy skill worth it? I have never invested in it at all and sell every ingredient I find. Now I kind of think it would make my life a lot easier. Potions are kind of expensive and tough to come by. Also, right now I have a quest where a shop keeper asked for X amount of Y potions. I already sold all my Y potions to god knows which merchants, so I guess now I'll have to check with every merchant until I find enough of them.
 
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Zombra

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It's kind of embarrassing to admit, but my characters were level 10 or 11 before I even added any additional spells. Is this how you are playing it?
Nah, I might do that if I were trying to be "optimal", but I'm not. I do have 4 skills assigned per character and that's like my one nod to efficiency. Every time I have enough gold to buy an upgrade or spell, I do it, which is horribly inefficient. Also I have all three magic skills on one character, which is a huge waste since everyone else has mana bars they're just leaving untapped.
 

Zombra

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Some other random thoughts.
Seems to me that if you have a guy whose main purpose is to tank, you want a shield and Defense skill. Even at low levels my shield guys are blocking all the time.

So far I've only used Alchemy to make money selling 50gp potions instead of 2gp ingredients. I have never used a single potion, either brewed or looted. Early game though, maybe potions are more necessary later on.
 
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Andhaira

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My party is:

Human Paladin (1-H 15, Defence 10, Persuasion 10). I would have much preferred going with White Magic but you have to have a staff equipped for spells, which is a ridiculous restriction.
Orc Berzerker: 2H Weapon 20, Foraging 5
Human Wizard: 15 Grey, 15 white (I named him Gandalf). I intend to pump up Lore and 2-H for him, the later to emulate Gandalf a bit better
Necrophil Sorceror: 20 Black Magic, 5 lockpicking. Will put some points in alchemy for him when I can as well as pickpocketing (the latter only because I read it gives you ton of xp)

Is this a good setup? I had an easy time in the first dungeon with this. I intend to ignore Barter and unarmed, and keep alchemy and pickpocketing at a minimum, only enough to make basic potions and do some moderate pickpocketing for extra xp. Good idea?
 

Zombra

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Human Paladin (1-H 15, Defence 10, Persuasion 10). I would have much preferred going with White Magic but you have to have a staff equipped for spells, which is a ridiculous restriction.
Orc Berzerker: 2H Weapon 20, Foraging 5
Human Wizard: 15 Grey, 15 white (I named him Gandalf). I intend to pump up Lore and 2-H for him, the later to emulate Gandalf a bit better
Necrophil Sorceror: 20 Black Magic, 5 lockpicking. Will put some points in alchemy for him when I can as well as pickpocketing (the latter only because I read it gives you ton of xp)

Is this a good setup? I had an easy time in the first dungeon with this. I intend to ignore Barter and unarmed, and keep alchemy and pickpocketing at a minimum, only enough to make basic potions and do some moderate pickpocketing for extra xp. Good idea?
Don't forget that you have an alternate weapon slot available at the touch of a button (X). So you can effectively have sword & board and a staff equipped all at the same time. You just won't be able to block after you cast a spell. Also I think it's a good idea for every character to have a magic skill at least at minimum usable level in order to leverage all your resources (those otherwise untapped mana bars). Give that Paladin a staff and Minor Heal.

Trying to pickpocket with a low skill is going to mean a LOT of save scumming, and even on a SSD quick load takes 10 seconds or so. I would say raise the skill or get your xp elsewhere. Boosting Lock Picking is pretty much a must for the same reason, unless you're not completionistic about loot.

Ignoring Unarmed is a safe bet. I have an Unarmed fighter just for laughs, hasn't been worth it yet.

Ignoring Barter? Okay, but gold is a big deal in this game. I notice your Orc only has two skills - maybe he can afford a point here and there on Barter (call it intimidation).

Alchemy, I have no comment. I feel like my small investment in it hasn't paid off, but I'm still in the early game. I doubt you'll be kicking yourself too hard later if you skip it.
 

Ellef

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My party is:

Human Paladin (1-H 15, Defence 10, Persuasion 10). I would have much preferred going with White Magic but you have to have a staff equipped for spells, which is a ridiculous restriction.
Orc Berzerker: 2H Weapon 20, Foraging 5
Human Wizard: 15 Grey, 15 white (I named him Gandalf). I intend to pump up Lore and 2-H for him, the later to emulate Gandalf a bit better
Necrophil Sorceror: 20 Black Magic, 5 lockpicking. Will put some points in alchemy for him when I can as well as pickpocketing (the latter only because I read it gives you ton of xp)

Is this a good setup? I had an easy time in the first dungeon with this. I intend to ignore Barter and unarmed, and keep alchemy and pickpocketing at a minimum, only enough to make basic potions and do some moderate pickpocketing for extra xp. Good idea?

Barter reduced training costs, which is the best source of skills after a while, plus gold is scarce. Foraging and barter are the most important to max imo, and if you want to save scum you can get away with low lock picking for a good while.

I found a lvl 18 weapon with 40 foraging at around lvl 7, it's worth leaving weapon skills alone for the first few levels.

I found that my white mage runs out of mana quicker than my black + grey mage, so I would make the white mage a sole caster and combine the other two.
 
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Probably, I maxed int so I didn't need to rest after a few spells. All my mana went on poly anyway.

I guess it depends on what you find and is in stock. The armorer had 2 magic longbows and my black magicked was mostly boosting grey. Plus neither could compare to 2 handed anyway.


Gotcha. Either by design or because of finding wisdom boosting magical loot, my mage had similar WIS and INT scores. Her Fire Bolts hit hard and were very accurate, but I would run out of mana by the end of a tough fight. I also stuck strictly to which characters and genders would make the best starting character for any given class. My healer and mage are both female for the small WIS bonus (male gets STR). More importantly, they are undead and necrophil because they have the highest INT and WIS scores. I know my mage is necro, so I guess they start with the highest WIS score.

I have actually never used the polymorph spell. I do see a use for it though so I am gonna pick it up. When I am faced with a bunch of enemies I usually web one of the melee attackers to give my fighter some relief from getting pounded from all sides. I usually don't mind when polymorph is cast on me because it fully heals your guy and restores all his mana. And the enemies never attack you while you are in pig form. So it takes you out of the fight but it's far from devestating. There are much worse spells to be hit with. But I could use it in conjunction with Web (and to a lesser extent, Frost Bolt) to take a couple of enemies out of the fight for a while. Web is best used on melee attackers (which is why the spider/monster AI almost always misuses it) but polymorph should be good to cool off attacks from archers and mages. I hadn't thought of that before. I just assumed it was a crap spell.

I agree the the two handed weapons skill could be over powered. More on that in next post...
 
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Ellef

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I use web and poly to keep 2 out of the fight wherever possible, for the harder fights anyway. They're pretty functionally similar, but web has no use on ranged units and poly heals.
 
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I found a lvl 18 weapon with 40 foraging at around lvl 7, it's worth leaving weapon skills alone for the first few levels.


Seems every one finds this weapon. It's a blue sword with a fancy name. My one guy designed for melee specializes in one handed fighting. So that sword is now being used (somewhat sparingly) by my mage. She has low STR and doesn't have nearly as much skill in two handed weapons, but still hits harder than my fighter. That is annoying. I wish I had went with an Orc Barbarian instead of a Wolfkin Fighter. I mean, I am sure I can still win the game but at least I could mow down uninteresting opponents quicker.
 
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I'll post about my party and what I think about some skills mentioned in posts from earlier today. I used the class templates instead of going with any custom designed characters.

Male Wolfkin Fighter - My intention for all characters was to min-max like I pretty much always do, so I took a male (STR bonus) Wolfkin (high STR and CON/hp). Fighters start with one handed weapon skill and I believe defense skill too. I probably would have been better off with a Barbarian because they start with two handed weapon skill. I've babbled about that enough already though.

Felmur Thief - Felmur cause they start with high DEX and I wanted this guy to be an archer. DEX determines both how likely you are to hit and how much damage you do with a bow. This guy does a lot of damage and it has been that way from the beginning. I used to give him the best two handed weapon I had in stock as his backup weapon. But he does so well with arrows that I finally gave up on ever using a sword with him. The high DEX score also gives him a lot of action points so he can run all over the place during battle. If I use a haste spell, it is almost always on this guy because he does more damage with his bow than my fighter can do with his crap one handed Sword of STR. Add in to the mix that he is needed for lock picking and that he can now get the party a ton of XP from pickpocketing, and I guess this guy is clearly my MVP.

Undead White Mage (healer/cleric type) - Chose female for the WIS bonus and undead cause they have high INT and WIS scores which is what you need for magic users. She uses a bow when not casting and does decent damage. It is not hard to find a couple of good bows, as LF_incline pointed out. She does decent damage. Less so now at the higher levels than earlier in the game. I actually have never used Grey Magic before. I am now building her up to use Grey Magic along with her White Magic. Pretty much she heals and hastes my guys and shoots the enemy with arrows. I have to start investing in some WM type counter spells for her. I'll also build up her Grey Magic and then purchase some GM boosting gear so she can start teleporting me back to town and stuff. Without any GM I have been walking everywhere or spending food for auto-travel. I can see I am missing out on a lot of utility spells (GM). At this point in the game I can get gear that is like +16 to GM, so it's not like it is too late to be able to cast the highest level GM stuff. You just have to do clothing changes, which can be kind of annoying (more on that later).

Necrophil Black Mage - She deals a lot of damage with spells and her two handed super sword does good damage even though she is still a bit of a wimp shit.

Lore - I have never needed more than 40 lore. This has been more than enough to open any secret doors I have found and 40 is what you need to ID magical loot. If you don't ID it, you cannot sell or equip it. In the later towns you can pay to have stuff IDed, but it's definitely worth it to build up to 40 lore and do it yourself. It not only saves money, but you get a little (about 12) XP each time you ID an item. My fighter only has one combat skill and it is lore. I built it up to 35 base and he carries around a +5 lore hat that he puts on when he needs to ID something. Like any other skill, eventually there are plenty of accessories that give you lore boosts when you equip them.

Unarmed combat - I have never invested a single point in this. Later in the game you start running into gear that gives nice boosts to unarmed combat and you find a trainer for this skill. I am guessing that you can do major damage with this skill late in the game, but I have no idea. It's definitely not needed though.

Persuasion - My play style is to want to kill everyone who dares defy my mighty band of looters, so I don't put much into this skill. I built my thief up a bit in this skill because I figured that made sense. It definitely has it's uses but for a lot of quests that require it, it doesn't seem like it needs to be particularly high to be successful. My not so smooth-talking bunch has no chance of talking their way past bandits but that doesn't bother me too much. I am pretty sure that this one really comes down to play style. You probably need to build it up a bit but you don't need it to be all that high if you don't want to solve quests with fancy talk. And if you like getting your ass kicked by bandits, definitely don't invest in this skill and also refuse to pay a "toll". You could always reload, leave that province and come back 5 levels later.

Barter - I agree this one is huge. I started out with my usual attempt at min-maxing combat power. I figured I could put skill points into the non-combat stuff after I had whipped enough ass to level up a few times. I quickly realized there are skills that you should put points into right away. This is probably one of them. And I am still building this one up. Barter lowers the price for everything. I think it also raises the prices you get when you sell loot. Recently I saved up to buy a tunic that is +16 barter for 1600 gold. That knocked stuff that cost about 1k without wearing it down to about 800. So it definitely pays to buy gear like that as an up front investment. My White Mage is in charge of "bartering". She carries around her town clothes. When I am gonna shop she has to change her clothes and gear. It is kind of a pain in the ass. I wish they would have like 2-3 paper doll templates that you could set up with hot keys and then you cycle through them with the press of a button, just like you can switch what is in your hand by pressing X.

Pick pocketing - I only invested in this one late. I also made note of where the best + pick pocketing magic gear was for sale so I could snap it up before going on a major crime spree. Picking pockets gives you a shit ton of XP. It is to the point that if you see a hobo in the street with 4 pieces of garbage (zero worth), you are psyched if it is a person that is easy to steal from. How hard it is to pick someone's pocket varies NPC to NPC. It does seem to follow some logic. A drunk idiot is more likely to be an easy mark than a trainer of ninjitsu or whatever (no that is not an actual skill). But there does seem to be some randomness. Some guards are easy to steal from. I am 90% to pick some pockets now, but I still save scum. My save files load a lot faster than what some people are mentioning, so that is not a problem. The reason I save scum is because I am a cheater. Also because I just don't feel like wasting my time with the tedious going to jail thing. It occurs to me as I write this that I could just bribe the guards. Then I wouldn't have to cheat and wouldn't get bored. But some NPC just straight out attack when they catch you and I was assuming that the guards I see running towards me would just jump in. Now I realize that maybe I could still bribe my way out of it. I have always reloaded right away. I'll have to play it out next time.

I do avoid pick pocketing people who are not easy marks. If I have less than a 60% chance I don't bother. I'll come back to them later. A thief with a very high pick pocketing skill, along with very high lock picking (to pick the lock of the jail cell door) would be the way to go if you never want to save scum.

As for how well you could build up XP by picking pockets in the early game... I am not sure. It is probably doable. I tend to agree with Zombra that is best left for later in the game though. Picking pockets with no scoundrel gear and a lowish base would have to involve a ton of save scumming.

OK, that is too much writing. This is why I don't join forums.
 
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There's a haste spell? Only other white magic i've seen so far is a cure and knights blessing buff.

Yep, and it allows you to attack twice in a round. Or run really far, but I'm not sure why you would want to do that unless you had only one slow character and were trying to retreat from battle.

I also see a spell "Cure". I totally ignored it because in the early game poisoning can pretty much be ignored. As soon as the battle is over the poison effect goes away. And I think if it was a spell that poisoned you, you just have to kill the caster? Not sure about that one. Later in the game I got poisoned and figured the idiot enemy AI was basically wasting a turn. But then it was doing about 18 damage to me every round, which is way more than I had seen before and pretty debilitating. But I *think* the Cure spell will also dispel effects like being "confused". Getting hit with that Confuse spell is a bitch. When you are facing several casters and they start hitting you with all this stuff it can get dicey real fast so I am gonna check out that Cure spell and see if it a counter to stuff other than just poison.

It's funny I am level 21 and have not used so many spells. I have never even used Grey Magic.

There are Black Magic spells I want to try too. Maybe if my high WIS caster hits enemies with a cloud of poison gas it will do serious damage per turn.
 
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I'm also realizing now that I was wrong about something. I thought it was basically foolish to use a human in this game unless you wanted to do it for role playing or purposes outside of making a "good" character. I figured humans were supposed to be a jack-of-all trades type of race (like they are in a lot of games) but that you were better off having each of your 4 characters specialize. So for example, why make a human barbarian as opposed to orc unless you wanted a melee guy who was also a decent talker? But now I see what Zombra is saying with everyone having mana, even the guys who don't cast. Now that is mitigated by the fact that the mana bar of a guy with low INT doesn't actually represent much. An orc probably starts with like 5 INT, so his starting point of 10 mana pts would be worthless. But now I think that a human fighter who can also cast simple stuff like minor heal would be very useful.

Better game design might involve INT effecting more than just spell points. Like a higher INT could lead to more skill points awarded per level, or make training easier somehow. Training could carry the risk of failure that is determined by INT (of course save scumming would get around this). But there are actually many more viable builds than I was assuming. And I am sure you could win the game with crap starting builds if you wanted to anyway.
 

Ellef

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It seems all the spell books are RNG so i went on an adventure and found a haste book. Don't want to buy it yet, saving all my money for barter training first.

And yep, 4 custom classes, male orc/wolfkin and female undead/necrophil are the obvious choices for the melee and caster roles, respectively.

Do you invest any dex in your melee fighters?
 

Zombra

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But now I see what Zombra is saying with everyone having mana, even the guys who don't cast. Now that is mitigated by the fact that the mana bar of a guy with low INT doesn't actually represent much. An orc probably starts with like 5 INT, so his starting point of 10 mana pts would be worthless.
Yeah, I thought that over a little more and realized that a stupid guy's mana pool really does require some investment to make use of. A 5/5 INT/WIS Orc isn't losing much by having no spells. Even if he could cast Minor Heal in combat, he'd probably "miss". So there is a little bit of wasted potential there, but the opportunity cost to leverage it may not be worth it.
 
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Do you invest any dex in your melee fighters?

My party only has one melee fighter. Yes, I have invested in his DEX in order to improve his hit percentages. I was throwing 1 and sometimes 2 pts into DEX on every level up. His magic equipment is all +STR, +DEF and +One handed weapon skill though.

A great benefit of having invested in DEX is he has enough action points to move around quite a bit. He can get to where he needs to go. Although he is out front, he can retreat back quickly if it is time to kite or rush toward a target if need be.

He's probably my least valuable party member though. I had such high hopes for him :( I always try to get him good gear but the one handed stuff just sucks. At least he can carry a lot of loot. He's kind of like the party's porter and punching bag.

I know the main quest involves finding pieces of a blade. If this thing is usable at any point, it better not be two handed.
 
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It seems all the spell books are RNG so i went on an adventure and found a haste book. Don't want to buy it yet, saving all my money for barter training first.

And yep, 4 custom classes, male orc/wolfkin and female undead/necrophil are the obvious choices for the melee and caster roles, respectively.

Do you invest any dex in your melee fighters?


Just realized I should mention haste only works for 1 round. Don't want to get your hopes up. It's not like it's some great spell. If you have one particular guy who hits very hard, it's not bad.
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Found a level 18 sword and I'm at level 7. The wait to use it is painful.

I also sold off some book called "The Codex". Thought it was something to do with this place, but it's actually a story item that I sold and I need to find it.
 

Zombra

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11,538
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm starting to think that that level 18 sword is hand placed and not spawned by the Foraging skill. I found it too and I keep hearing about other people finding it.
 

neucifer

Novice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Messages
34
so I played a bit of Eschalon, and it is really quite slow for me. since this game is party-based, I assume it's a lot faster moving? how many hours into it are ya'll?

EDIT: and by "slow" I don't mean just slow, but kind of uninteresting. all I can seemingly do is cast the same firebolt to deal damage, and I'm like level 10 or so? and I don't think I've missed many spells? ensnaring things and firebolting them to death forever isn't really my idea of fun. -- basically, someone please tell me Antharion is more like a spiderweb game, which I tend to enjoy.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Finally got my filthy paws on this game (got bribed by the author, lol) and I must say that pickpicketing is awesomely ridiculous. Fiddled a bit with the game, then started a fresh playthrough with a pickpocket 25 character. Went into the city, stole everything that wasn't nailed (ah, the joys of savescumming), increased pickpocketing at each level up (it seems that the skill value governs the amount of XP gained) and now my entire party is level 7, 1 hour into the game. And I'm not even done stealing.

Now, that's on the medium - on the hard, it seems, there's, like, an invisible 15 (?) point penalty to all skills so you'll be gaining less experience from that. But still, if you just suffer and grind for a bit and then come & steal, I think the results can be replicated.

Anyways, game is pretty fun at the moment, nice exploration & metagaming. It's a pity they had to release in this year. Also, it's really bad that they haven't bothered to make some Steam Trading Cards - I'm not into that, but that's a big PR flaw.

ED: I'm done stealing and make that level 8. Could've gone even higher if I bought +4 pickpocketing items in the middle of it.
 
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