Alpha Protocol dialogues and screens

[denizsi]

Flirting rocks! Believable! Spy Movey! Yes I've never flirted!

Don't you say?

Fuck you. Jack Bauer beats Bond and Bourne any day.

That's the problem. It all takes 24 hours for Bauer. Gone like the wind. Instant gratification. Give it another 24 hours and they won't even remember what Bauer did to them

 

[dagorkan]

Err, I don't understand. Each of those strings of dialogue is triggered simply by choosing between "I think I've got you beat" and "No, probably not"? They're like radically different conversations based on apparently interchangeable opening lines. Why not just have the game pick one at random?

And yet they apparently both have the exact same end result... that's New Skool role-playing for you, lollerz

 

[elander_]

I image someone simply played the game and transcribed the dialog to the magazine. That piece of dialog is not supposed to show any choices. I honestly don't see much difference from Bloodlines dialog lines quality. Notice those dialogs are probably going to be voice casted and the player will listen to them so it's more like a movie argument than something we would read in a book.

PS: Not that i expect to see a f*load of dialog choices in this game anyway. I think the realistic expectations for this game is something close to DeusEx and with an interesting story development that CA can do when he wants to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're aware VD that Alpha Protocol isn't the official Bond game? I think that dialog is perfectly fine for two tired people, sitting in the plane that just have a chat.

"...inspiration from the three J.B.'s (James Bond, Jason Bourne, and Jack Bauer).

-Dialog trees are gone. It uses a "stance system" in order to maintain "cinematic flow". From the description, it seems as though players pick one of three stances, one for each J.B., a suave/smooth one, a cool professional one, and a brash/EXTREME collar-grabbing one. They say that someone who wants a Bond alike can just set it to suave..."

So, I assume that was "suave" aka James Bond (as it couldn't be Bourne or Bauer).

 

[Annonchinil]

This reminds me of The O.C.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Read a few James Bond movies scripts. See if you can find anything that matches that conversation.

Anyway, you like it and think it fits perfectly? I hope you'll enjoy the game.

How about indulging me and telling what you think is wrong about it instead of trying to be funny? I did explain my position, now it is your turn.

I said "it's painful to read". The conversation lacks Bond's charm and style and it resembles something you could see in a bar where a local clown who thinks that he's smooth is trying to pick up chicks. It wasn't poorly written. If it was a dating RPG where you play a guy desperately trying to get laid, the above dialogue would have been perfect. In a spy game it looks incredibly lame.

Anyway, these things are subjective. If you like it, I'm happy for you.

 

[Wyrmlord]

You know, that one woman looks like some teenage sidekick, and the kind of gear that the other is wearing and the fact that she has a bubble gum is really lame. She doesn't even look like a spy, more like a fashion model on a ramp showing some spy-themed clothing.

 

[Lurkar]

I dunno. It's nothing exciting, true, but it's nothing I'd say is really horrific.

It feels like filler text, and every game in existence has that, so I can't really get upset at Obsidian for it.

Plus, let's face it, as far as writing goes, the lesbian scene in Mass Effect has set the bar so amazingly low you'd really have to apply yourself to miss.

 

[Aditya]

You don't think it fits perfectly? How can either of you tell when it's the only released dialog?

you know that devs let only the best parts of the game get previewed? and that's an unbreakable rule.

Where do u get that from or u make that up yourself? Its a first preview and the developers would NOT show each and every 'groundbreaking' thing thats in the game, they often reveal things gradually and some things are only mentioned in very scarce details till the very end. Atleast wait for more details and actual gameplay footage before you whine...

so if these are the best dialogs they could find to show us - well uhmm

No they arent 'best'. Its still work in progress as written on the scan page above the dialogue tree. As someone mentioned, perhaps its the preview thats crappy.

That's funny, because that's exactly what they seem to be doing. The setting would've been cool if it was handled a little more maturely, but the whole "cheesy spy movie" vibe just makes it seem completely retarded.

Yes they are aiming for "cheesy spy movie" setting and I can understand its not upto your liking. Think of NOLF with RPG elements and a male protagonist. That game was loved by many. Its a given that AP would be atleast 'mature' than NOLF but not 'deep' and 'serious'. And then again, not every RPG *has* to be...we have Torment, Sith Lords and MoTB for that.

You're right it probably does fit in with the setting and style of the game. That's all the more reason to be worried about this game. If stupid things like "bag any chick you want" fit into the game, then you know that it's not just one misplaced feature in an otherwise deep and mature game. The whole game is idiotic. This whole "it fits in with the setting" justification being made by most of the people here is ridiculous. Crappy dialog is crappy dialog.

Since you have problem with Obsidian's base direction with spy setting, Its understandable then you wont find anything likeable about it, but that doesnt mean its bad. The dialogue shown is alright for me. Ofcourse its subjective.

That piece of dialog is not supposed to show any choices. I honestly don't see much difference from Bloodlines dialog lines quality.

Thats exactly it is! I am currently re-playing Bloodlines and its very similar in that style. Indeed, its written by the same person [Brian Mitsoda]

You know, that one woman looks like some teenage sidekick, and the kind of gear that the other is wearing and the fact that she has a bubble gum is really lame. She doesn't even look like a spy, more like a fashion model on a ramp showing some spy-themed clothing.

Yeah, 'presuming' they are even spies...

 

[Wilco]

Plus, let's face it, as far as writing goes, the lesbian scene in Mass Effect has set the bar so amazingly low you'd really have to apply yourself to miss.

Very true. I don't know why people are shocked and horrored about a pseudo-dating RPG. The Witcher had it, and that was still a good game. This kind of thing fits more into the spy-genre than in fantasy now that I think of it.

 

[RK47]

Modern Sex Cards. I cannot wait!
Sex Box Live Achievements ftw!

on a more serious note: I don't understand the complaints: 'ewwwww what a dumb way to flirt!' I'm sorry if you don't like it, then don't bother turning the flirt stance.

I'd like to complain that I should be allowed to rape that female passenger at gunpoint in the game. Is it realistic? Yes. But will it make it into the game? Probably not.

 

[MetalCraze]

not in US version

 

[dagorkan]

Modern Sex Cards. I cannot wait!
Sex Box Live Achievements ftw!

on a more serious note: I don't understand the complaints: 'ewwwww what a dumb way to flirt!' I'm sorry if you don't like it, then don't bother turning the flirt stance.

I'd like to complain that I should be allowed to rape that female passenger at gunpoint in the game. Is it realistic? Yes. But will it make it into the game? Probably not.

Well look at it this way, if you only get three 'stances' for each dialog scene as VD suggests and one of these stances is always taken up by this retarded style of flirting you're left with only two choices. Difficult to see how it can be a good RPG

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Flirting rocks! Believable! Spy Movey! Yes I've never flirted!

Don't you say?

Haha, Shark Attack 3 is a masterpiece. Also, I'm aware of that the line between old-school and neo-codexer has to be drawn somewhere, but...

Joined: 24 Nov 2005

Joined: 24 Nov 2005

...I'm real curious what happened on November 24th, 2005 that decides that this is where it's supposed to be drawn?

-Dialog trees are gone. It uses a "stance system" in order to maintain "cinematic flow".

From the other PA thread:

I don't quite get this critique. I always thought of the Mass Effect system (note: I haven't actually played the game) as a good idea with really shitty implementation. I mean, I love traditional dialogue trees which are written out in full (e.g. I read each sentence and I know exactly what my character will say). This works just fine, and is a perfectly good system in old-school RPGs where dialogue isn't fully voiced. Today, it's retarded to expect a major developer to release a game without voice-overs. Now, the single most annoying thing about voice-overs (except shitty actors) is when you have fully written dialogue options which takes about a nanosecond to read and understand, but half a fucking hour to speak out aloud. I know what they're going to say, so I really couldn't care less about the slightly awkward presentation by some no-name too-ugly-for-television shit actor. IMO, this system (the ME-system) can potentially do away with that problem. I don't need to read the fucking script to enjoy a movie either, so as long as we're stuck with fully voiced dialogue, I definitely prefer not knowing what the hell my character is going to say next. Combine with subtitles and skippable audio, so I can skip those too shitty to bear-actors, I'm a happy camper.

Everything I've heard till now about the Alpha Protocol dialogue system seem to be improvements over ME's. But I can still easily come up with several ideas to improve on this system to make it more challenging as well as entertaining. Off course most of them probably would depend on having a shitload more dialogue than what's standard in modern RPG's and that's one hell of a budget killer if you're at least trying to get some half-decent voice-talent.

In closing, cinematic flow = good when considering that non-voiced dialogue in big-budget RPGs ain't happening anytime short of hell freezing over.

From the description, it seems as though players pick one of three stances, one for each J.B., a suave/smooth one, a cool professional one, and a brash/EXTREME collar-grabbing one. They say that someone who wants a Bond alike can just set it to suave..."

Even though the three J.B.s are being used here as archetypes it is only for illustrative purposes. The player isn't limited to one of three options for character progression; just like in Fallout, you can focus on any combination of skills that suits your play style.

That's when they talk about skills, true, but giving them the benefit of the doubt that may hold true for the dialogue as well.

Ouch, that assessment is perhaps a wee bit too much on the fanboy-side. Anyway, at least you can choose between the three. That's more than Biowhore can brag about with their fucking Jack Bauer in space.

I said "it's painful to read".

Disregarding the content, I'd say it reads a hell of a lot better than many of the AoD dialogue examples we've seen till now.

The conversation lacks Bond's charm and style and it resembles something you could see in a bar where a local clown who thinks that he's smooth is trying to pick up chicks.

Well, I think that will depend a lot on whatever voice-talent presenting them. Anyway, I can agree that Bond still is ahead of what we've seen in this example. And to let the fanboy vent again: TIS IZ JUS OEN ECKSAMPEL!1

It wasn't poorly written. If it was a dating RPG where you play a guy desperately trying to get laid, the above dialogue would have been perfect. In a spy game it looks incredibly lame.

Oh, please. Either they must've cut that sort of options entirely, or it would've become something like we're seeing here. No really, how would you have written it? I'm not trying to make any "Lol VD can't write"-argument here, I'm actually curious of how you would present such romance-dialogue if that ever would be viable option in a future game?

Anyway, these things are subjective. If you like it, I'm happy for you.

How not-patronizing-at-all of you.

 

[MountainWest]

And here I thought Dementia was one of the good guys. Oh well, nothing to carry on about. Deniszi already hit the nail on the head.

But, since you Obsidian fanboys insist, I rewrote one of the paths to give you a hint of what could've been done.

Scarlet: You wouldn't believe the day I've had.
Mike: Not interested; masturbating.
Scarlet: You ever been a pushy woman in the heart of Arabia?
Mike: I've been inside one or two. Does that count?
Scarlet: Cute.
Mike: Not as cute as I'm imagining your pre-teen daughter right now.
Scarlet: You could keep that up the entire flight I bet.
Mike: Nah, with this new material I'll be squirting in a minute.
Scarlet: I was going to invite you to slow down.
Mike: I don't cramp easily.
Scarlet: Wow, you just come out and say those things, huh?
Mike: When I'm not putting my 12 inch cock in your mouth. By the way, come closer.
Scarlet: I'm - oh, you nearly got me there.
Mike: I was aiming for your mouth.
Scarlet: So, Mike, when you're not playing with yourself...

See? The subtle but vital difference lies in the tone of sophistication.

 

[MetalCraze]

such dialogues would be pretty cool

 

[Vault Dweller]

Even though the three J.B.s are being used here as archetypes it is only for illustrative purposes. The player isn't limited to one of three options for character progression; just like in Fallout, you can focus on any combination of skills that suits your play style.

That's when they talk about skills, true, but giving them the benefit of the doubt that may hold true for the dialogue as well.

Ouch, that assessment is perhaps a wee bit too much on the fanboy-side.

Just a bit.

Anyway, at least you can choose between the three.

Considering that James Bond is the charisma boy out of the three, saying "you can choose the other two" isn't really a viable alternative.

That's more than Biowhore can brag about with their fucking Jack Bauer in space.

Sure. And it's way, way more than what Bethesda can brag about. What's your point?

Disregarding the content, I'd say it reads a hell of a lot better than many of the AoD dialogue examples we've seen till now.

I expected someone to mention it, but I didn't think it would be you, to be honest. Does that mean that my points are invalidated now?

Oh, please. Either they must've cut that sort of options entirely, or it would've become something like we're seeing here. No really, how would you have written it?

I thought that we've already established that my writing is bad, no?

 

[Crichton]

In an unprecedented move, I'm going to have to agree with VD on this one. The dialog isn't implausible, I'm sure I could hop down to the nearest bar and hear exactly the same stuff. But it's not entertaining to read. If I wanted to hear people blather saying things that aren't informative and aren't funny, I could turn on the old TV, it's an election year, they're all over it.

Now, it's worth noting that if the "suave" dialog is supposed to remind me of james bond, there's a shitload of lousy dialog in pretty much all of the bond movies. There are some good lines ("I have a license to kill", "We have all the time in the world..."), but they're diamonds in the rough. So trying to create over the top, james bond style dialog that's also fun to read might be a real tall order. Though Irrational did a really nice job turning crummy comic-book dialog into pure gold in the Freedom Force games. That might be the most relevant example.

Shortcomings in VD's dialog are, of course, irrelevant.

 

[Pseudofool]

It's mind-blowing to see console-hate affect how people can interpret one small dialogue tree, and a line about rewarding a multiplicity of choices...

It's clear to me that within the dialogue we are given in one instances the bangability of the chick is altered through the course of the conversation, even though the resulting concluding dialogue is the same. While, I could really give a fuck about bangability it's encouraging to see dialogue choices operate beyond the simple concluding system. I imagine that bangability would not be the only thing "influenced" through a conversation, but really we don't have much to go on, so I'm not sure why people are crapping on their glasses and refusing to see things optimistically.

As for comparing this to the dumbfucked ME dialogue system, some people aren't getting it. Shepard would have like three one word choices that in many cases were shades of the same tone. I think in a Role Playing Game, where you know, you are playing someone else not yourself, it's pretty intuitive choice to let the character "play out" the "tone" you pick for the conversation--the fact that you can change it at certain points in conversation is also encouraging. For any actual writers out there, the idea of Tone is a paramount, and for me provides more choice than five well-worded, yet damn similar (or oppositional) responses. Tone doesn't work on a binary, which is a good thing.

As for rewarding players for whatever choices they make, this is a good thing--and the disgust from it, is likely to the article's poor choice in the word "reward" rather I'm sure they mean all player choices will have different results, the word reward is simply more PRish. To interpret this as "I win no matter what I do" is pretty shallow, and again, shit-stained way of looking at the preview.

I agree with Brother None (though not his aversion) that the preview is poorly put together, but, hell, I can read a preview in Game Informer (you know the magazine you get from Game Stop) and see where they are projecting their own audience's taste's on the preview. The point of the preview, of course, is not to do the game justice, but to get a bunch of ape-shit teenagers to put money down on a reservation over at the GameStop.

Mass Effect had myraid failings, but there's nothing here that makes me think that it AP will repeat these. The inventory system, the stupid, meaningless side missions, the horrible character development...I don't see anything specific that makes me think Obsidian going down idiot's road with Bioware. In fact they suggest, that side missions, will augment t the mainstory line, rather than just providing you with a 9mm XI or Body Armor VII. I agree Mass Effect pissed me off, but until I get more specific info that leads me to believe AP is making the same mistakes, I'll keep my diapers off and wait to shit my pants.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Ouch, that assessment is perhaps a wee bit too much on the fanboy-side.

Just a bit.

Yeah, yeah. I'm still going to be one until I get more hype to depress me. That interview played all of my hype-sucker buttons though.

Anyway, at least you can choose between the three.

Considering that James Bond is the charisma boy out of the three, saying "you can choose the other two" isn't really a viable alternative.

Well, I sort of agree. But still, as I previously said: this is the kind of game where I can accept lacking dialogue options if the rest of the gameplay is good/awesome.

That's more than Biowhore can brag about with their fucking Jack Bauer in space.

Sure. And it's way, way more than what Bethesda can brag about. What's your point?

Well, uh, that it's going to be better than Bioware and Bethesda games? Not much of a feat I guess, but that was probably more in response to the "TIS JUZT SPY-MASSEFFECT/Biowares kid brother"-crowd. But I can see why you're disappointed considering Avellones role as creative lead. Anyway, If you're not happy with it, your loss.[/patronizing]

Disregarding the content, I'd say it reads a hell of a lot better than many of the AoD dialogue examples we've seen till now.

I expected someone to mention it, but I didn't think it would be you, to be honest. Does that mean that my points are invalidated now?

Oh, come on! That was a joke. You (should) know that I'm with the "More than good enough/borderline best EVAR if you fix the typos"-crowd. English is my second language, so I'm not all that demanding. Consider it revenge for the condescending tone of your earlier replies in this thread.

Oh, please. Either they must've cut that sort of options entirely, or it would've become something like we're seeing here. No really, how would you have written it?

I thought that we've already established that my writing is bad, no?

[/quote]
I think you stopped reading before you came to the "I'm not trying to make any "Lol VD can't write"-argument here, I'm actually curious of how you would present such romance-dialogue if that ever would be viable option in a future game?"-part.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

I don't quite get this critique. I always thought of the Mass Effect system (note: I haven't actually played the game) as a good idea with really shitty implementation. I mean, I love traditional dialogue trees which are written out in full (e.g. I read each sentence and I know exactly what my character will say). This works just fine, and is a perfectly good system in old-school RPGs where dialogue isn't fully voiced. Today, it's retarded to expect a major developer to release a game without voice-overs. Now, the single most annoying thing about voice-overs (except shitty actors) is when you have fully written dialogue options which takes about a nanosecond to read and understand, but half a fucking hour to speak out aloud. I know what they're going to say, so I really couldn't care less about the slightly awkward presentation by some no-name too-ugly-for-television shit actor. IMO, this system (the ME-system) can potentially do away with that problem. I don't need to read the fucking script to enjoy a movie either, so as long as we're stuck with fully voiced dialogue, I definitely prefer not knowing what the hell my character is going to say next. Combine with subtitles and skippable audio, so I can skip those too shitty to bear-actors, I'm a happy camper.

Everything I've heard till now about the Alpha Protocol dialogue system seem to be improvements over ME's. But I can still easily come up with several ideas to improve on this system to make it more challenging as well as entertaining. Off course most of them probably would depend on having a shitload more dialogue than what's standard in modern RPG's and that's one hell of a budget killer if you're at least trying to get some half-decent voice-talent.

Do I have to make a new thread to get some input on this, or what?

 

[GeneralSamov]

Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, James Bond and no Jack Bristow?

:moving along:

 

[mjorkerina]

Do I have to make a new thread to get some input on this, or what?

What do you think you will get ? there is no debate here, it's purely a matter of good taste. I'm never gonna side with someone who thinks it's a good idea to make a dialogue system where you don't know what your character will say next and pretend there is no way to make a game nowadays without full voice acting. I'm retarded because I still expect to be able to play new RPGs without having to suffer the dumbassery of the people who wants their PC to be voiced and the game to give them a seamless cinematic experience. What are you going to say next, let's kill turn based combat systems ?

Everything you've heard about AP was improvement over ME ? so what ? polishing a turd doesn't change its vile and smelly nature : it's still a turd. Put rubies and diamonds inside the turd and the smell doesn't evaporate.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

What do you think you will get ? there is no debate here, it's purely a matter of good taste.

No it's not. I'm not going about preaching "THIS IS THE WAY IT MUST BE! ALL OTHER WAYS ARE SHIT! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!". I'm sharing a different take on this system, which I've yet to see anyone else arguing for. And you don't seriously think it's impossible to have a debate about taste, do you?

I'm never gonna side with someone who thinks it's a good idea to make a dialogue system where you don't know what your character will say next and pretend there is no way to make a game nowadays without full voice acting.

Settle down Sparky. First, I'm not saying there is no way to make a game without voice overs. That's just as retarded as Jeff Graw arguing that 3D is pointless with a fixed POW. What I said was if we're stuck with full voice-overs, a refined ME-system might do away with a lot of annoyances with the old-skool select-line-in-dialogue tree (with full voice overs) way of handling dialogue. Also, again, note that I haven't actually played Mass Effect.

I'm retarded because I still expect to be able to play new RPGs without having to suffer the dumbassery of the people who wants their PC to be voiced and the game to give them a seamless cinematic experience.

New RPGs != New AAA RPGs. Keep your silly straw men for yourself. Perhaps I should have worded it differently, but the message would've been the same. It's not like AoD will sport full voice overs, and that's a new RPG, isn't it? Hell it's not even certain AoD will have any SFX at all.

What are you going to say next, let's kill turn based combat systems ?

WHAT AN AWESOME IDEA! *MAKESTHREAD*

Everything you've heard about AP was improvement over ME ? so what ? polishing a turd doesn't change its vile and smelly nature : it's still a turd. Put rubies and diamonds inside the turd and the smell doesn't evaporate.

That's what you've got deodorant for.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Seeing as importing is all the rage and I'm tapped for time....

I really can't see how some people are defending the absolutely skullfuckingly retarded dialogue system. Sure, the whole "all paths lead to a different outcome" is nice, but that doesn't vindicate the system as a whole as it is more indicative of Obsidian not being total lazy asswipes like, say Bioware, and throwing in tons of "false choices".

First off, one is limited to only three choices at any juncture with this system, which is a cap dialogue trees do not share. Second, it seems to have no room for dialogue skills or the active use of them as even if they can be implemented, you'll never really know you are using them or have a choice whether or not to use them. Third, it's worse than Mass Effect in the whole idea that the player has no idea what their character will say. Whereas in Mass Effect, you had a rough idea of what Shepard is going to say based on a small summary like phrase, Alpha Protocol gives you a huge demeanor that could go in any direction and takes a lot of control over the character away from the player for that "cinematic" bullshit. And fourth, it's a degeneration of dialogue from a critical gameplay element, like in Fallout, Torment, Arcanum, and Mask of the Betrayer to what is essentially a mildly interactive cutscene.

The whole argument of everything being okay because there will be different outcomes for each choice is asinine as well. One is basically saying that because other games have had poorly implemented dialogue tree systems, this idiotic one is good because it is not half-assed. The four rationales in the above paragraph are the reasons that this system can never match the potential of a good dialogue tree.

If dialogue doesn't really allow one to shape their character the way they want to, then what else will? It seems as though the focus is on action, so I assume it will only allow a person to choose what kind of killing machine their character is.

This is beginning to look worse than Mass Effect as far as role-playing goes, and I'm a little confused as to why the Codex hasn't come down on this game with full force like the Codex did with Mass Effect. Sure, the fact that it' Obsidian and the fact they've done some decent to great stuff in the past and have a lot of pedigree might explain it, but that doesn't mean they can't fuck up beyond all recognition. Just look at Neverwinter Nights 2 and the original campaign. All the talent of Obsidian and it ended up a buggy, dumbed-down, and uninteresting PoS. Their "great writing and dialogue" didn't ride in and save the day there, so don't assume it will be in Alpha Protocol by default.

I know Obsidian has the talent to make something like this work and be great, I'm just not fully confident they will. I'm rooting for them, but I can't help but feel they have made some awful blunders right out of the gate.