Development Info Age of Decadence March Update

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Re: the removal of tags.

I don't know where I stand on this, and I can see it going either way. VD said that the change isn't permanent though...they want to implement it and see what people think...so if it's a disaster, they can always roll it back.

I'm fine with this.

Mrowak

Ill refer to your greater knowledge of RPG mechanics in this case.
For my side of the argument im merely saying what im seeing in the current build and what unfortunate effects arise from having those tags in your dialogue options and answers you get.

Several decent suggestions were already made by others to alleviate probable consequences of just removing those tags.

For me, its just a matter of seeing this big problem and saying so - and then hoping there can be some solution to it.



zeitgeist

I quite like what im seeing from Vince writing, and it may very well be that he is capable of producing adequate additional lines that will serve a better purpose in this context. It wouldn't surprise me at all.
This is not programmer writing. It fits the overall tone and atmosphere of the game admirably. And honestly, its refreshing. And clear. And informative.

Sure its not fucking Dickens, fucking Homer, Shakespear, Tolstoy, Chaucer or fucking T.S. Eliot or any other from that list. Who the fuck is?
I can name several more recent popular writers who are clearly even worse. And its certainly no special compliment to state Vince writing is clearly better than anything bioware or bethesda pulled off - ever.

The changelog looks really good, can't wait to try it out in practice. Especially the removal of skill-tags - while I did not mind them at all, I also realized that I was not really paying attention to the actual writing - what my character is saying - on multiple playthroughs, because I was too worked up about whether I've got enough skill-points to beat the skill check in question. Should lower the amount of skillpoint hoarding and metagaming to boot.

Regarding the realism aspect of the skill check debate, I agree that multiple skill checks can be realistic.
Also I don't necessarily see this as a problem, it's just problematic due to being too unpredictable in its current state.

Maybe offering one or two additional options on the second check (as has been suggested before, not necessarily all with the same outcome) would provide for better gameplay here without diluting the original idea too much?

Talking about realism, I don't think showing tags in dialogue is necessarily unrealistic.
After all, when speaking to someone you know about your intention, i.e. if you try to persuade someone, you do it actively by your choice of words, arguments, etc.
Likewise for other skills one might employ. It's a conscious decision most of the time.

For me, it's quite simple actually: removing the tags simply removes the game from my TO BUY list for the simple reason that it makes the non-combat path a crapshoot as a consequence of the fact that the writing will never be good enough to implicitly convey the skills checked by each option, and the combat path can't carry the game on its own. I'm sorry VD painted himself in the corner with the way the dialogue works, but turning all non-combat interaction into a dialogue had the consequence of making dialogue supremely important. If you take such a crucial gameplay element and remove the one thing that gave the player a way of understanding what is happening, you, essentialy, lobotomize the whole game.

This!

This?

Please dont talk about realism - like, ever again.

You dont choose "persuasion" when talking to someone.
You dont choose "trade" or "streetwise" or any other f`ing dialogue skill.

Trying to "persuade" someone is a generic word that is used in a generic way in reality.
It can contain several different angles based on specific knowledge or relevance to the person in question.
What Vince is saying about AoD skills is a simplified approximation of how things are actually going in reality. Not THE reality.

In reality you use whatever you have out of all these AoD skills, all mixed together and applied in different levels based on your judgement and abilities in order to PERSUADE someone in the end - As a final result.

Hey tiger, you just said to the dev that his writing is crap and that it is lobotomizing you if it doesnt have the tags.

best of luck dear.

This. Although I don't think removing tags would break the non-combat path, it wouldn't be a good decision. A lot of times you can't know from the writing which skill is used in the conversation. So it is possible, that accidentaly I will chose the one I'm not particulary well trained.

Why look at it as a "crapshoot"? Why not instead say "let's see how far I can get roleplaying this character that I built with these stats"?

It's not (just) a puzzle game, it's an adventure. You're supposed to be immersed in this fantasy world, not crunching numbers in your head all the time.

You really are a dumbass...

Or you could instead have the UI box on the bottom left show dicerolls instead of [persuasion] success.

@ Infinitron:

Pretty much.

Anyway, guys, let's not overreact. We are not trying to fuck up the game or cause you more frustration. So, let's wait, see, and then discuss - that's all I'm saying. Also, I didn't mention it but I hope y'all realize that there is a toggle and we aren't planning to go line by line and remove something.

So, if it works, great. If it doesn't, we press the button and go back. So, keep an open mind, will you?

PS. Posts like "I won't buy your game now" are silly. I hope it's clear that we aren't trying to please everyone and get as much money as humanly possible. If you like it, buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Problem solved.

I suppose it would be ideal if dialogue tags could be enabled/disabled in the options screen.

I see where you're coming from, but I like C&C in my RPGs because I can have the option to be in control of what's happening to my PC if I chose to. If I want to go mental, I could do it by not caring about the details, if I want to be a control freak I have that option too. If you remove one of the most important things that control the way you make the Choices (in this case, the skill and outcomes tags), then the Consequences are meaningless because you can't connect the Choices you make with their Consequences. I'm not saying that all choices should have immediate and obvious consequences. Having delayerd consequences, like in TW1, is a really nice mechanic. However, obfuscating the choices on purpose damages the C&C as a whole and the player may just as well ignore the non-combat path altogether if he wants to be in control of what happens to his character.

Well, Vault Dweller would say that the amount of control you want to have is unrealistic.

Look...

Someone already suggested only the dialogues based on skills you chose are shown.
The way AoD works - you choose two at the most.

And really... if you have streetwise and etiquette its rather clear which is which when you read them.
And i would dare say persuasion is different then others too.

Lore is pretty unique stuff isnt it?

If its something affected by the players faction standing or kill score or reputation.... im sure it will come up in the dialogue, right?

gee, look whos talking! Isnt that an irony?

hey, beeing nice to random people sure pays off!
:hiver takes a note:

Sure thing.

If nothing else works... why not.

VD, sorry if that sounded excedingly aggresive, but, as you are saying, you're not trying to fuck up the game or cause more frustration and, IMO, removing the tags is a recipe for increasing frustration, so I had to draw attention to this issue. I'm not saying that you should try to please everyone. No matter what my objections are in regard to your design choices, I would like to see the final product as a reflexion of your vision, not as the result of design-by-commitee. If next Thursday you would release the game with the full content and the exact same gameplay as the demo, I would be the first in line to buy it, despite its flaws. However, I don't think that shooting yourself in the foot by worsening a central game mechanic would be a good idea for the reasons I already mentioned in my previous posts in this thread.

Also, if the global tag toggle already exists, what do you think of making it a visible gameplay option that the player can toggle at will? That way, everybody could try playing either way and decide on what works best for them. You could even have a poll some time after the game's release and see what people chose and use this information as a basis for your next games.

Removing the skill tags is a good move. It makes non-combat paths more complex and challenging than they would otherwise be.

How about making a tag DLC and charge it 20 bucks a pop? Make it a day one DLC too!
:p

Someone wants it really badly!

I just remembered we used to have a name for in-game conversation skill tags, back in the day. What was it..?

Oh, right, "Moron Indicators."

No, 'Moron Indicators' were features that morons complained about. Like the Spirit Meter.

[lore] 'Moron indicator' was coined during Lionheart development and referred to little icons used next to dialogue options. Without them you had no way of knowing that choosing "I want to kill all goblins", when talking to goblins, will lead to combat and disappointments.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...f-the-crusader/screenshots/gameShotId,187663/

I was about to laugh, but then it all burst into a bubble of Codex when I read "your TRANNY ends here".

I don't mind it so much - considering skill checks are more intuitive now (multiples of 5, combined skill checks are more easily reached, etc.), it might end up working quite well. Hopefully they'll remove/alter a lot of the instadeath checks in order to accommodate this.

Vault Dweller: The most irritating instadeath checks IMO, were climbing with a DEX of only 8. If I'm going to die while trying to climb a wall, for instance, why offer me the option in dialogue to begin with? Makes more sense to have it appear only when failure might lead to other options (i.e. you slip and fall onto a bale of hay underneath, attracting a few guards from outside who heard something. Do you stand and fight or do you attempt to sneak in while they're trying to find where the sound was coming from).

At best it might make non-combat gameplay more engaging and less binary if it's properly represented. Besides, if it doesn't work, putting the tags back is as easy as flipping a switch.

If you really prefer not to have a choice than facing the consequences, I think you are playing the wrong game.