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"Against the cult of simplicity" - Craig Stern on how the indie clique hates complex games

TheGreatOne

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Aren't most indy games PC exclusive though? Atleast most of the interactive movie book "experience" games are, and stuff like Goat Simulator and Octodad where all you do is dick around
 

pakoito

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most of indie games are crossplatform with mobiles and consoles.
Most "publicly indie" games, but not most of the releases, there's heaps of small games being released every day on Newgrounds, Desura and itch.io

You may argue if a flash game or some post-LD prototype is a game or not. It is. A half-baked, subpar, unfinished or incomplete game but a released game nonetheless.
 

Perkel

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Right. Though making it PC exclusive will cut a lot of that "publicly indie" crap.
Rest of points would cut arcade,"experiences" and other shit.

Games which dude was talking about are hardly marketed because they compete with those crap games that are very trendy to include them on their site instead of bunch of stuff that involves spreadsheets, stats, dices and where gameplay is in mostly done in your mind solving problems.

So indie game conf focusing solely on non experience,arcade would be for me much more interesting that indie game conf that top 3 spots are holded by 3 different social issues games.

At least i would have something i could play for months.
 

Morkar Left

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it is questionable whether this is game but i find idea interesting
I fail to see an ''idea'' there. Can you elaborate?

i did not buy/"play" it so i'm concluding out of my ass, but i dare say i have some experience to make a try. anyway -> the idea is to convey an atmosphere of a time passing and changing with you having no influence over it (no interactivity, basically a screensaver as jagged appliance puts it). since you actually "experience" it over longer periods of time, symbolic object like a mountain can convey a strong feeling of one's placelessness and insignificance in greater order of thing. this naturally leads to further self-reflection without any obvious conclusion, so the speculation (and soul-searching) can go on indefinitely. the most banal things can have most profound effect when studied long enough (fragment reflects a whole). that is not to say you should experience it like that.
also, judging from his previous work it also might have a dose of irony, what you are mocking right now, putting a great meaning and meditating over some pretty rotating screensaver, and calling it a game.

I would rather say, that this "mountain simulator" proves that trolling is indeed an art form.

Reminds me of "Des Kaisers neue Kleider".

:prosper:
 

Cadmus

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Right. Though making it PC exclusive will cut a lot of that "publicly indie" crap.
Rest of points would cut arcade,"experiences" and other shit.

Games which dude was talking about are hardly marketed because they compete with those crap games that are very trendy to include them on their site instead of bunch of stuff that involves spreadsheets, stats, dices and where gameplay is in mostly done in your mind solving problems.

So indie game conf focusing solely on non experience,arcade would be for me much more interesting that indie game conf that top 3 spots are holded by 3 different social issues games.

At least i would have something i could play for months.
Yeah, the thing I want for them to do is to mimic AAA games production values and slickness while not being afraid to introduce new ideas and system that are too complicated for the mainstream public to grasp, not the other way around.

how the fuck do you already have more posts than me
 

Perkel

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What's worse i have almost as many brofists.
I feel violated and i should probably make a game. Thanks to Amok that anus_pounder watches over me.
 

TheGreatOne

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most of indie games are crossplatform with mobiles and consoles.
Games like Trine 2, Super Meatboy, Castle crashers, Trials HD, Hotline Miami and mediocre indy platformers&euroshmups that are PSN/XBLA+PC aren't really that bad, so I don't really consider them to be in the same category as cancer like Papers, Please, Gone Home, Stanley Parable and Dear Esther that has flooded Steam over the last few years. There's indy games (cute little wanna be 16 bit games that aren't as good as SNES/Mega Drive games that inspired them, but have decent enough gameplay and don't really bother with trying to have a story) and then there's SJW circle jerk indy games (no gameplay, hardly any interactivity, 2deep4u, leftist bullshit). Then there are the actual independently developed games that are few and far between, like Grimoire, RPGs made by Spiderweb Software, Knights of the Chalice, Japanese doujin shoot em ups (and the occasional dungeon crawler, side scroller or tactical RPG) and the homebrew scene on consoles like Dreamcast, Atari 2600 and Neo Geo and platforms like Amiga. These games are made by actual enthusiasts and are intended for people who really are into these genres&platforms and usually get a physical release and go for a much higher price than your average indy game that can't have a price tag higher than 2 dollars with out the risk of scaring off all the customers. And like pakoito said, there's also the browser game "scene" which is it's own thing, and before that there were freeware games.
 

JudasIscariot

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I don't see why indie scene should support this throwback to yesteryear.


Tags: Aterdux Entertainment; Craig Stern; Legends of Eisenwald; Sinister Design

Yesterday, the developers of Legends of Eisenwald published a new developer diary blog post on their site. The main topic of the post was their attempt to apply to this year's IndieCade. In case you didn't know, IndieCade is an annual indie games festival, described on Wikipedia as "the video game industry's Sundance", which is "focused on innovation and artistry in interactive media, helping to create a public perception of games as rich, diverse, artistic, and culturally significant". Here's how it went down:

In the beginning of the summer we applied with our game to IndieCade. We didn’t have many hopes to start with. Looking at the screenshots that are published on Facebook page of this festival one could think that indie games for them are almost exclusively pixel art, simple mechanics and other attributes of modern pop-culture. So, the response we were not selected for the final part did not surprise us. To the standard response there were attached a few sentences of a juror or a few of them:

"I kind of don’t get it… When the game is defined as a “classic old school RPG with tactical turn-based battles, simple economic model” why would you enter it in indiecade?"

"It seems weird to me, with no hook, no novelty and no tutorial, the game feels… Well, like a 90s game. It’s a “classic, yes, but “old school” doesn’t have to mean “old”."​

"This game is an impressive technical achievement! Indiecade however looks for games that innovate in design or other categories, and Legends of Eisenwald is largely a worthy but loyal recreation of a well-trodden category."​

"This game is an impressive technical achievement! Indiecade however looks for games that innovate in design or other categories, and Legends of Eisenwald is largely a worthy but loyal recreation of a well-trodden category."

If I am reading this correctly, Indicade favors style over actual substance? (I haven't played Legends of Eisenwald so I can't say much about the game.)

If so...

67b.jpg
 

Lyric Suite

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fucking wall of text

Would you say that Japanese games declined less rapidly than PC games (which have been at their peak between the late 80s and early 2000s), or are games like Dark Souls the exception to a general decline, like Original Sin has been recently for PC games? I should probably check that game one of this days, now that it has been ported (probably shittily) on the PC.
 
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Jasede

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The Japanese video game market is perhaps somewhat declining, yet still consistently produces the most cutting edge video games. Platinum Games is alive and well and working on Bayonetta 2, for example, and From Software, even though Dark Souls 2 is a marked step down in terms of artistry (in the gaming medium, art means simply how good all parts of the game form a working whole), did prove that even in this decade, great games are still released and made. Then there's, of course, the arcade market which sees current and modern fighting games and shoot 'em ups of the highest caliber still, including the recent independent offering "Crimzon Clover", which was so successful it was eventually released as an arcade cabinet itself.

You should ignore people like jcd that don't understand what makes a game good. They have their limited scope of what's 'good', but lack the experience (and truthfully, exposure) when it comes to determining a game's actual merit. It's a bit like when gaming journalists proclaim Braid art when it's really a shit game. Or when the Codex RPG-veterans, so focused on one dimension of video games, callsDiablo 3 a bad game when it's actually a well-crafted experience.

The uncomfortable and unfortunate truth is that there's still a big gulf between the average quality of Japanese and western releases.

I do wish we could return to 1992, when western computer games (and Japanese console games) were at a height without equal.

ED: The article in the OP is terrible. It needs examples and it just doesn't feel like the writer really knows what he is talking about. Just because we might agree with him doesn't make it a good article.
 
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tuluse

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Japan has a solid AA industry still alive. So you still see some good games.
 

Jick Magger

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There was more care, thought, and dedication put into designing the gameplay in one section of Metal Gear Solid 3, a game frequently criticized for being a 'movie' by alot of people these days, than a majority of modern games out there.
 

Infinitron

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ED: The article in the OP is terrible. It needs examples and it just doesn't feel like the writer really knows what he is talking about. Just because we might agree with him doesn't make it a good article.

What

Did you read the full thing or just my quote
 

Curious_Tongue

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As someone who wants to go indie and make a gameplay-centric game where the fuck am I meant to turn to? Nobody wants gameplay, it's innovative gimmick, fancy art or pseudo-intellectual story.
Heck, this even applies to mods mind you. Graphics mods draw the crowds, gameplay mods few care for.

How can someone of old school sensibilities survive in the industry? There just doesn't seem to be place for me outside of modding. Being a fucking sell-out and making some dumb ass gimmick game seems to be the sane choice, but I refuse.

Sigh.

People will take notice of a game worth playing.
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
Dark Souls is an arcade beat em up with stats and poor storytelling. It's not incline at all.
But how does it compare to other beat em up's such as Cadillacs and Dinos, Final Fight, The Punisher, etc?
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,189
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Dark Souls is an arcade beat em up with stats and poor storytelling. It's not incline at all.

It's nothing like arcade beat-em ups I really fail to see similarities. Modern Castlevania in 3D? Ok. Zelda with stats on drugs? May be so. But not beat-em up. Storytelling is actually good, it's the story itself which is eh. Having to deduce what is going on from scraps of information is fun, fans making retarded theories and claiming that DS is the deepest story ever is another matter entirely.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
Would you say that Japanese games declined less rapidly than PC games (which have been at their peak between the late 80s and early 2000s), or are games like Dark Souls the exception to a general decline, like Original Sin has been recently for PC games? I should probably check that game one of this days, now that it has been ported (probably shittily) on the PC.
I'd say that they've survived the decline better due to the fact that they always developed games for arcades and consoles first and foremost where as Western developers that were predominantly PC based started making console games after the launch of Xbox. But due to this fact you never got games quite as complex as PC strategy games, so you might argue that the Japanese haven't declined as much because they didn't have as much to decline from. But stupid gaming trends have definitely declined Japanese console gaming a lot, espescially the jump to 3D, which essentially demoted many of most well known Japanese franchises (like Castlevania and Mega Man) to low budget/niche handheld titles. If the console gaming industry hadn't declined at all, "AAA" gaming would consist of games like Metal Slug, Guilty Gear, Contra, Castlevania, Mega Man, Thunderforce and the Darius series, rather than garbage like Heavy Rain and Uncharted. Pick up and play games where you either learn the game patiently or never beat it.
But atleast some genres with relatively high level of complexity and/or a very high skill cap and learning curve have been getting steady releases for handhelds and as budget releases in Japan, where in the West publishers didn't touch that stuff at all after the decline started.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,165
Diablo 3 ... a well-crafted experience.

:hmmm:

Maybe he was talking about its level of polish.

This is the Quake 3 vs System Shock 2 argument all over again. It seems people who vouch for Japanese games seem to care more about the type of game design that goes into making a game like Quake 3, where as strict PC gamers are more concerned on how stimulating a game is on a purely conceptual level, whether it pushes certain boundaries (in a real, non-pretentious sense), and so forth. Diablo 3, at least when i tried it, before its expansion, was very poor in terms of what it did to the original Diablo formula, particularly compared to games like Path of Exile, but there's no denying it was a well polished game, even though that is hardly sufficient to redeem the game, for me anyway.

Japan has a solid AA industry still alive. So you still see some good games.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/292480/

Hugh. That art style must be part of some kind of decline because i don't remember old school Japanese games (or even anime for that matter) looking as ridiculous or as faggy as that.
 

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