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Review AdventureDex: Primordia vs Tormentum - Dark Sorrow: Which is Better and Why?
- Thread starter DarkUnderlord
- Start date
MRY
Wormwood Studios
There's something wrong with the focus and light sourcing, but I can't articulate it. It's not quite that everything is "pillow-shaded," but I think there is inconsistent light sourcing among objects in a room -- like the sprites have one light source, the background another. Also, objects in the background are exactly as crisp as objects in the foreground, no matter how far in the background they are. I think those two things, combined with the high level of detail, make it hard for the eye to focus on anything. It's like you're being pulled in every direction at once, so the scenes don't really come together as a whole. Not sure if that's correct, but it's the best I can articulate it.
Copper
Savant
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- 469
Skimming it, it reminds me of Clint Langley's early stuff for 2000AD - technically impressive cg work, marred by everything being super high detail, lots of visual noise, but ultimately a bit flat.
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You keep saying this, and similar things. The Codex gave it exactly the recognition it deserves. I found out about it through here, and I'm glad for that. It was worth every cent I spent on it (and yes I did pay for it
). You should be proud of what you made in this game.Unless you're about to pull a Vogel/Begue, being all ashamed of your previous accomplishment and about to make the true game you've always wanted to make all along
MRY
Wormwood Studios
I don't think anyone knows that he's about to pull a Vogel/Begue, though Vogel seems pretty self-aware, I guess. That said, my next game is very little like Primordia: not an adventure game, not science fiction, no strong overarching narrative, very little dialogue, currently no art from Vic (I'm hoping he'll contribute some, but we'll see), little to no humor. I keep wanting to announce it, but I keep not having the goods ready. I think we're getting there, though.
Regarding your first point, I am proud of the game, but I think it's an important discipline to treat the good things that come to you in life as something more than what you are entitled to. Lots of people do good work and it goes unrecognized, perhaps even on the Codex. If you do good work and it gets recognition and rewards, you shouldn't say to yourself, "This is no less than I deserve." Even if you think you deserve it, the appropriate mindset is more like, "What a wonderful thing to get a little bit of justice in the world, which is by no means guaranteed." This is not some kind of gulag-style self-criticism or doublethink privilege-checking so much as a candid recognition that while success isn't "random" it has too many variables to predict with any certainty. For example, if Vic hadn't started a thread here years ago, if I hadn't stumbled across the Codex back in '05 and come back from time to time such that I had enough insider knowledge to avoid shitposting, then I'm not sure WWS/Primordia would've wound up with the good relationship it has with you guys. I'm not saying you guys gave us a pass or inflated us; but I think there has been a degree of social reciprocity. Or in even simpler terms, if Vic's art hadn't been so good, I don't think people would have thought as much of the game's writing and design, or they might not have looked at it at all. That wouldn't have made my contribution any less, but it certainly would've changed the pay-off for me.
My experience writing fiction is part of what is driving my thoughts here. Since it's OT, it's behind a spoiler tag:
Also, I am beset by enough self-loathing that I don't entirely believe the praise for Primordia, though it certainly makes me happy (or less depressed).
Regarding your first point, I am proud of the game, but I think it's an important discipline to treat the good things that come to you in life as something more than what you are entitled to. Lots of people do good work and it goes unrecognized, perhaps even on the Codex. If you do good work and it gets recognition and rewards, you shouldn't say to yourself, "This is no less than I deserve." Even if you think you deserve it, the appropriate mindset is more like, "What a wonderful thing to get a little bit of justice in the world, which is by no means guaranteed." This is not some kind of gulag-style self-criticism or doublethink privilege-checking so much as a candid recognition that while success isn't "random" it has too many variables to predict with any certainty. For example, if Vic hadn't started a thread here years ago, if I hadn't stumbled across the Codex back in '05 and come back from time to time such that I had enough insider knowledge to avoid shitposting, then I'm not sure WWS/Primordia would've wound up with the good relationship it has with you guys. I'm not saying you guys gave us a pass or inflated us; but I think there has been a degree of social reciprocity. Or in even simpler terms, if Vic's art hadn't been so good, I don't think people would have thought as much of the game's writing and design, or they might not have looked at it at all. That wouldn't have made my contribution any less, but it certainly would've changed the pay-off for me.
My experience writing fiction is part of what is driving my thoughts here. Since it's OT, it's behind a spoiler tag:
I wrote a trash fantasy novel (maybe not trash?) when I was 20, and was on a train with a copy of it that I was bringing to a mentor, when some young woman asked what it was, read a bit of it, gave me her number and said she had an agent friend, and offered to set me up with that agent. The experience was utterly unlike anything that had ever happened in my life. Anyway, after meeting up with my mentor, I took the train back home, and put the paper with the number on it down on a counter in my parents' house. My mom, cleaning up, moved the paper into a drawer and then couldn't remember where it was. It didn't turn up till months later, after I'd gone back to college. When I called the woman, it was super awkward and nothing came of it. [Aside: I realize this story seems like "pics or it never happened territory." Indeed, I myself wonder sometimes if I imagined the whole thing.]
It happened that my dad was college roommates with a successful horror author, and he asked the author to give me an introduction to an agent. I sent a manuscript to the agent, but it turned out that the document had track changes on, even though it was set not to show them. I didn't both to look through the manuscript past the first few pages, which looked fine, and the end (to make sure it was complete), which also looked fine. It turned out the middle was riddled with strike throughs and so forth, and totally unreadable. I sent it off to the agent, and got a letter back that was friendly enough, but was clear he had looked at it for a few pages, been horrified by the sloppiness, and was just being nice on account of my dad's roommate's introduction.
Later, I wrote what I thought was a very good pulp sword and sorcery story. It turns out these are now (or, at least, in 2005) very hard to sell because most fantasy magazines are (or were in 2005) devoted to literary fantasy ("What if Laika got super intelligence, landed on earth, and became the pet of a family in which there was a loveless marriage, adultery, and one of the children commits suicide, etc., etc.?"). But as luck would have it, an anthology publishing this kind of story came out, paying pretty good rates. Amazingly, the story ("Hunting the Fifth Sister") was accepted! But then then anthology publisher went bankrupt, after tying up the story's rights for years, and so it went.
I'm actually not sure that I'm a very good fiction writer, but I did spend a lot of time writing fiction, and all I wound up to show for it was a couple hundred bucks, a couple printed 'zines, a few comments on various online forums (mostly in The Escapist, which only published me because they'd done my non-fiction). That was the fruit of years and years spent on fiction, including three novels, three dozen stories, etc. Perhaps things would have been totally different if I had kept the phone number in my pocket till placing the call, if I'd proofread the manuscript, if the anthology had stayed in business. But none of that has anything to do, really, with my skill as a writer. It basically has to do with me winning three luck checks, and then somehow critically failing the next luck check.
So when people say nice things to me about Primordia, it feels more like the random encounter on the train (an impossibly wonderful and unexpected thing) than like getting a paycheck for a month's worth of work (something you deserve and could rightly demand).
tl;dr I've spent my life squandering opportunities, and thus am happy when I don't manage to screw things up.
It happened that my dad was college roommates with a successful horror author, and he asked the author to give me an introduction to an agent. I sent a manuscript to the agent, but it turned out that the document had track changes on, even though it was set not to show them. I didn't both to look through the manuscript past the first few pages, which looked fine, and the end (to make sure it was complete), which also looked fine. It turned out the middle was riddled with strike throughs and so forth, and totally unreadable. I sent it off to the agent, and got a letter back that was friendly enough, but was clear he had looked at it for a few pages, been horrified by the sloppiness, and was just being nice on account of my dad's roommate's introduction.
Later, I wrote what I thought was a very good pulp sword and sorcery story. It turns out these are now (or, at least, in 2005) very hard to sell because most fantasy magazines are (or were in 2005) devoted to literary fantasy ("What if Laika got super intelligence, landed on earth, and became the pet of a family in which there was a loveless marriage, adultery, and one of the children commits suicide, etc., etc.?"). But as luck would have it, an anthology publishing this kind of story came out, paying pretty good rates. Amazingly, the story ("Hunting the Fifth Sister") was accepted! But then then anthology publisher went bankrupt, after tying up the story's rights for years, and so it went.
I'm actually not sure that I'm a very good fiction writer, but I did spend a lot of time writing fiction, and all I wound up to show for it was a couple hundred bucks, a couple printed 'zines, a few comments on various online forums (mostly in The Escapist, which only published me because they'd done my non-fiction). That was the fruit of years and years spent on fiction, including three novels, three dozen stories, etc. Perhaps things would have been totally different if I had kept the phone number in my pocket till placing the call, if I'd proofread the manuscript, if the anthology had stayed in business. But none of that has anything to do, really, with my skill as a writer. It basically has to do with me winning three luck checks, and then somehow critically failing the next luck check.
So when people say nice things to me about Primordia, it feels more like the random encounter on the train (an impossibly wonderful and unexpected thing) than like getting a paycheck for a month's worth of work (something you deserve and could rightly demand).
tl;dr I've spent my life squandering opportunities, and thus am happy when I don't manage to screw things up.
LeStryfe79
President Spartacus
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2002
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- 28,354
That's probably more to do with the game being good though, than your attitude. Most of the time if the game is shit, we say so, that usually then pisses off the developer, they act out and stop coming.
Yeah, art's important. Case in point:
That's the Contact Us forum where Tormentum was dropped. If it had looked like crap, I'd never have touched it. That said, the difference between Primordia and Tormentum visually are clear, with Tormentum being very high quality and visually beautiful, while Primordia having graphics I would describe as "fitting the theme". And playing the game, I never felt any of the issues others have raised about Tormentum's visuals.
But, as I say in the review, it's the story in Primordia that grabs you, interests you and makes you want to find out more. While Tormentum only grabs you visually but never really engages with you on the level Primordia does.
MRY
Wormwood Studios
Thanks! All the same, whether deserved or not, I'm grateful for the support. And I will be sad when I inevitably let you guys down and am torn to shreds by the angry mob. 
Better not announce that game after all then
MRY
Wormwood Studios
I remember having Wadjet Eye "fever" while searching for something new to play. Resonance, Gemini Rue and finally Primordia. I think all of them could be a little longer, maybe I just liked their setting and characters and didn't want to end it so soon. I don't know, maybe my memories of old games are rose coloured but they tended to be "bigger". Anyway, Primordia was good from the start, and then it grew on me with the final multi-ending. The art is great, the music is memorable and I still listen to it after beating the game. No many new titles can have as memorable soundtrack.
Overall, I think it's great to see more sci-fi oriented adventure games. I can't wait for Technobabylon.
As for the next match I suppose Heroine's Quest vs Quest for Infamy would be even better. Although the former being free gives it an upper hand, it still could be interesting comparison.
Overall, I think it's great to see more sci-fi oriented adventure games. I can't wait for Technobabylon.
As for the next match I suppose Heroine's Quest vs Quest for Infamy would be even better. Although the former being free gives it an upper hand, it still could be interesting comparison.
There are many things that give Heroine's Quest the upper hand. Like, say, being a much better game in just about all aspects.
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- 10,872
Of course. But I think there's a fine line between being humble and being almost dismissive of the recognition you deservedly get. You're generally a humble a very nice guy, and it's one of the many reasons I love reading your posts and discussing with you, and consider you to be one of the best posters on the Codex (well, the fact you write intelligent and thoughtful posts also helps
), but that comment about the Codex being "overgenerous" falls on the other side I think. Anyway I'm not trying to change you or convince to go all entitled on us (God knows we have enough of those devs!), but considering Primordia's more mixed reception elsewhere I think it's important that you know exactly why we love it so much here. Shannow is right and there is no Codex hivemind, but we do we some common trends in the way we think here, it's what binds us together as a community. Esepcially in the adventure subforum, we're less easily impressed by glitz than a typical maintream reviewer. Primordia does the glitz well enough, but it also has a lot more substance than many, many modern (or not so modern) adventure games, and that's why we like it so much, that's why DU praises it so much. And TBH part of the reason I want you to know this is selfishness. If you're making a new game, even one completely different from Primordia, and you decide you want the Codex to like it and buy it, then we have to tell you exactly why we like it.I think you mentioned Gemini Rue earlier. I liked GR a lot, and really enjoyed its writing and atmosphere. But as a game, Primordia is something else.
Some people might not have, but others still would. The thing with graphic adventures is that you need it all. You need good puzzles, good writing, good atmosphere, and then you also need to grab people with good visuald and good sound. If you skimp out on any aspect, the game is lesser. I think a lot of devs think they can get away with skimping on gameplay, but then all you end up with is the glitz and no substance (which, again, seems to be Tormentum's problem). Primordia got it ALL right.
Yeah, OK, stop that
MRY
Wormwood Studios
Makes sense. I certainly don't mean to be dismissive of the Codex's support of the game, or to suggest that I'm ignoring the explanations behind the praise and criticism.
Incidentally, I think an important background fact is that this place has had a very strong influence on the evolution of my design philosophy long before and entirely independent of Primordia. For example, most of the articles I wrote for The Escapist under the byline Marty O'Hale were written around the time I was first diving into the forums here, and "Killjoy" is clearly Codex-inspired. Games like Darklands or King of Dragon Pass, both of which worked a strong inspiration on my current project, were things I found through the Codex. It's helpful having particular comments directed at Primordia, but the main help I've gotten (in terms of growing as a designer) is watching people here think out loud and argue over design philosophy. (I should add that it is strange and a little bit unpleasant that the forum encompasses both so much usefulness and so much obnoxiousness, since I place a pretty high personal premium on courtesy and gentleness. As I noted to Roxor at the time, I really don't know what to make of an LP that is both the most alert to Primordia's nuances and includes "jewgold" on every other page.)
That said, I have no idea if the next game (Fallen Gods is the name) will meet with Codex approval. I can tell you that a couple of Codexers have reviewed some of the art and writing with favorable reactions, and that one Codexer is my editor-in-chief on the project. I'm hoping that I'll be able to draw upon you guys for testers once there's something to test. But since it's more of an RPG, and isn't particularly hard core, it's considerably more vulnerable to loathing I suspect.
Zorba the Hutt
Arcane
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I know, and of course I absolutely did not mean to imply you were being dismissive of our support. I just like you and don't you to wallow in self-loathing over a game you made and I think is great
We've had many arguments over the years about this. I'm not DU but I think the rationale is that, if you want total unrestricted freedom in presenting arguments, then you have to allow for total unrestricted freedom. I've actually been on the side asking for at least some control a couple of times, but I also recognize it's simply not feasible if you really want to keep the openness in argumentation, which is exactly where the "usefulness" you mentioned comes from. I've also indulged in obnoxious behaviour myself, once with you, and I apologize for this one. It's just a good way to vent and discuss things in a more banter-ish fashion. Paradoxically I find it helps get at the substance too - sure you have to filter through the hyperboles, but it also means you don't have to filter through all the nice words hiding a not-so-nice kernel - what you see is more or less what you get. As for the jewgolds and whatnot, it's just talk. Mind2x frequently cracks height or hands/fists jokes and I usually play along with them because I think he's a great poster. The only poste I regularly call a faggot is Jaesun, and that's because he insists that his friends do that. We're a light-hearted bunch like that, despite claims that we're superserious bitter cynics (which we also are but, well we have a diverse portfolio).
Anyway sorry I dragged this quite offtopic.
From what I saw of the writing it's also something quite original and different. Again there is no Codex monolithic opinion, but generally the 'dex likes games that try do something different and original, even if it doesn't succeed in other areas. I'm certainly looking forward to it.
MRY
Wormwood Studios
I totally grasp why freedom of speech is important, and I think it's good that people have an outlet. Just for me, personally, it's weird to enjoy participating in a forum that has so much stuff that I otherwise think of as beyond the pale. Anyway, like you said, OT.
MRY
Wormwood Studios
Rock Paper Shotgun has a nice review of Tormentum up:
"Casual enough for RPS", then
Bubbles
I'm forever blowing
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link: www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/03/04/tormentum-dark-sorrow-review/
Sounds like there is some very fine C&C in the game.
Sounds like there is some very fine C&C in the game.
You have some nerve thinking you can use Andhaira's catchphrase.
Bought Tormentum today, already finished it. ~3,5 hrs. It was p. cool for the first project of the studio as MRY mentioned. The story is basic (and it uncovers only in the very end), the art is nice, the puzzles are easy. Overall, it's not a masterpiece, but rather enjoyable. Also bought a copy for my wife.
Primordia is more complex and deep, though it's not a reason to scold Tormentum.
Primordia is more complex and deep, though it's not a reason to scold Tormentum.
I never finished playing Innocent Until Caught or Beneath a Steel Sky.
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