Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

A successful example of Pickpocket skill implementation?

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
-1365137921.jpg


Oh wait, succesful?
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,204
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Haha, Two Worlds 2 Pickpocket was godawful, most of the time it seemed literally impossible to do.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
There are a few ways that work with any system: predetermined difficulty rolls/player rolls for all chests. That way, players can't savescum. Another option would be that NPC's have randomized loot so that if you go back to an earlier save, the person you are trying to steal from may not have the same items. Also, just like real life, anyone with something worth stealing has some manner of protection. Maybe the NPC attacks and the guards show up to sort it out, based on player perks, charisma, and standing the outcome is decided. Maybe pickpocketing outcomes are decided by your skill, but if caught the outcome comes down to the societal standing of the person you are stealing from (as in real life.)

Thing is, though, that stealing stuff from people's pockets doesn't exactly fit in with the "heroic" archetype, nor does getting caught stealing fit in with any historical model. Would anyone follow some guy, no matter how noble, if he was caught red-handed stealing from rif-raff in some small town? On the other hand, it's not exactly a murderable offense like in most games. In this sense, Oblivion did one thing ok. Small offenses had a little bit of bounty, but not a lot. You could pay them off. But big stuff had infamy, which couldn't be erased. Yes, i know Oblivion sucks and there are examples of how to exploit this.

Just saying that Thief has a great thieving system because that's what the game is. Other games add pickpocket as an afterthought but don't really seem to give a rip about the reality of it. It's a pass/fail event with predictable outcomes. I could only see developers taking a thieving system seriously if it was germane to the game itself. For most games, it's just a tacked on item. I could see lots of room for improvement, but I just don't see the rewards.
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,216
Location
Space Hell
Players always could savescum. Common method is to add some action to change seed. Like talking to victim or applying other skill and then reapllying pickpocket
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
Problem with pickpocketing is you either make it realistic and thus tedious, or you make it more abstract and it quickly loses its appeal.

So far vast majority of RPGs follow the same pattern regarding Pickpocket or Stealing skills.
1. Use Pickpocket.
2. Fail.
3. Get attacked by entire town\settlement and Reload.
Anyone could remember interesting examples of games with stealing and stuff that does not force players to reload because entire area turns hostile and present them with different penalties or maluses?

Oddly enough early Everquest was one.

At leats in PvP Rogues could pickpcoket people and the mobs they were fighting which led to people being paranoid of them hanging around.

It didn't last long, but did longer than things like charming or fearing NPCs.
 
Last edited:

T. Reich

Arcane
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,714
Location
not even close
Gothic 2 (NotR?) did it right.

You had to learn pickpocketing as a skill first. Then as a skill, it was dependant on your dexterity.
Most of named characters could be stolen from. There were several tiers of difficulty, requiring a certain amount of character's dexterity for non-random success - 20/40/60/80/100/120.
If you had enough dexterity, you would be able to "see" the option to steal from a character in dualogue. You could see all tiers you had enough dex for, plus the next highest tier.
If you had enough dex for required tier, stealing is a 100% success. If you didn't - you failed.
Failure usually meant the mark and maybe people nearby going apeshit on you for stealing, assaulting you. If you manage to defend yourself, you may get away with it, if not - you got beaten up and your weapon and some of the money taken from you.
Additionally, the person you stole from may not want to speak with you again. Also, if you pulled that shit in a civilised area (like Khorinis), you would have to pay a fine to the local law enforcement, or else.

+Can't save-scum.
=Can only steal what's offered for stealing. Bad because mah freedom, good because can't break the game this way.
+Can solve some quests with stealing.
-Stealing is limited to a relatively few characters.
+Stealing gives some exp and is actually a worthy investment both exp and wealth-wise if you are getting 100+ dex on your char.
 
Last edited:

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Well, I am happier with the demo I got out of it than I would have been if I had donated to Pillars of Eternity instead. So I don't know how fair it is to call it theft Wilhelmina no one did that with poe.
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Underrail has a static pickpocket system - you can either steal an item, or you can't. No randomness involved.

The Pickpocket skill determines how many/how valuable items you can steal from each victim.

I like this static system, as I end up savescumming in every RPG with percentage-based pickpocketing anyway.
 

SionIV

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
590
BG:EE. They added a minimum pickpocket requirement in BG:EE, so you can't just reload 100 times.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
Personally I don't think that there's owt wrong wi a binary pickpocket skill, thing I think is wrong is the reaction: Standard reaction is you lose and fucker attacks you, doesn't make sense for some characters, others it does. But if you're in a law abiding area there should be other considerations, lets say watch is called interrupting a fight or the cries of the robbed and you have to pay a bit of geld as a price for stealing if the victim can prove it, hard sell but maybe you hand over a pittance if they've got witnesses. Thing is though people talk and have long memories, me as a GM i'd hit the player where it hurts, hike up prices for a thief at the merchants, deny them or autromatically fail quests because you're not trusted enough, nobody trusts a tea leaf and you get that reputation stuck to you until moving on and even then it could follow you. Might even find those righteous institutions won't talk to you if using your real name.

Thing is one door closes and another opens, suddenly you get shady characters wondering if you want a job, you get asked whether you can acquire shit or maybe rub out an annoyance for somebody. Couple whores having a problem wi a touchy panderer, you take over the running, sample a bit o the merchandise and warn off their old boss. Few slaves thinking of unionising, you go in and make sure these ideas are beaten out of their heads. Possibilities are endless.

A smart character using aliases and disguises might even be able to turn this kind of situation to his advantage, virtuous and upstanding individual to some, crime lord to others, a Walter White. Course a thick character should just get used and probably betrayed as there is no honour among thieves.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,089
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
In terms of mechanics, Fallout 1 & 2 had the best approach. You could use the skill to "scope out" a mark, but trying to take (or plant) anything was where things got tricky and skillchecks were made.

In terms of enjoyment, Gothic 2 (possibly Gothic 1 and Risen 1) got it pretty well. There it was simply "You must have THIS long fingers to steal one item".

Thief was named in this regard, but the problem with Thief's approach (which is a good one) is when you start comparing it to other games - in Thief you are a master thief simply plying his trade, in other games that is rarely the case, so it boils down to timing vs skill check.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,875,968
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Skyrim and Fallout 3.:troll:
Not bad, actually. If you're caught, the NPC just takes back the item and gets a big disposition drop. The former also lets you use speech to bribe or persuade guards into looking the other way if your bounty is high enough for them to walk up to you but not high enough to kill on sight. Maybe it makes things easier but at least it means the risk/reward ratio is not laughably bad and I can use the skill regularly without keeping my pinky finger on quickload.

(stealing a pencil outside of pickpocketing screen in FO3 can still trigger an angry murderous mob, because having good AI is teh hard for Beth)
 

Xathrodox86

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
760
Location
Nuln's labyrinth
Skyrim and Fallout 3.:troll:
Not bad, actually. If you're caught, the NPC just takes back the item and gets a big disposition drop. The former also lets you use speech to bribe or persuade guards into looking the other way if your bounty is high enough for them to walk up to you but not high enough to kill on sight. Maybe it makes things easier but at least it means the risk/reward ratio is not laughably bad and I can use the skill regularly without keeping my pinky finger on quickload.

(stealing a pencil outside of pickpocketing screen in FO3 can still trigger an angry murderous mob, because having good AI is teh hard for Beth)

I was thinking mainly about FO3. Skyrim was indeed better made in that department.
 

SwiftCrack

Arcane
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
1,836
Good topic. Even though it's not an RPG, Assassin's Creed (2? Not sure if it was in 1) had 'interesting' pickpocket mechanics. It's literally holding an awesome button while you walk and you automatically steal from everyone you bump into. While it is very consoletrash, it does fit the idea of being a super-suave-stealthy assassin and not having any kind of menu or interface pop up every time you pickpocket someone. And there is a random chance people find out and run to the nearest guard to get help.

Of course, there is no 'skill' (literally, but also as in number-based skill) involved.
 
Last edited:
Unwanted

Irenaeus II

Unwanted
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
3,251
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Cidade Desespero
Only game I remember having fun with pickpocket was Fallout 2. The mechanics of inspecting the mark and taking/planting item by item was amazing. I didn't savescumm until I got what I needed also, just reloaded and gave up on the item if I got caught (sometimes not even this and lived with the consequences). But, I can't speak for weaker minds.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
10,992
Location
USSR
It was ridiculous that you couldn't sell stolen items normally, though.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,760
It depends a lot on the presentation. For isometric games, a remix of the Fallout 2 model combined with the Revised Thievery component of the Rogue Rebalancing mod for BG2. In short, on failed pick-pocket attempts, you are given a tiered series of responses depending on your history of trying to steal from that NPC, your reputation and your attributes.

Revised NPC behavior on failed theft attempts

In the unmodded game, a merchant would instantly turn hostile (and often try to attack a fully equipped, combat-ready party) whenever a party member failed to steal an item from his store. Similarly, neutral, non-joinable NPCs would simply turn hostile after a failed pickpocket attempt. This component alters that behavior as follows:
  • Merchants will no longer turn hostile after a failed theft attempt. They will instead opt to report the theft to their superiors (thereby lowering the party's reputation) and refuse to have any further dealings with the party
  • A PC can now talk his way out of a failed theft/pickpocket attempt if one of his mental attributes and/or Lore and Reputation score is high enough
  • Neutral, non-joinable NPCs will now initiate a special dialogue after a failed pickpocket attempt rather than simply turn hostile
  • If a familiar fails a pickpocket check against a non-hostile NPC it will be reprimanded (which will make it run around in panic for a short while)
In summary, whenever you fail a theft or a pickpocket attempt, you now get various dialogue options for dealing with the situation depending on your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Lore and Reputation scores. The initial requirements are fairly low (12 for either of the mental attributes, 20 for Lore, 14 for good Reputation and 7 for bad Reputation). However, each NPC keeps track of how many times you've tried to talk your way out of a theft, and the aforementioned requirements exponentially rise with every further failed attempt. Also, even with the highest attribute scores, you can have no more than 3 botched theft attempts per NPC. After that, no amount of talking will be able to convince that particular NPC of your "innocence". Lastly, this component allows parties with a high reputation and party members with a charisma score above 10 to pay a fine to various law enforcers (Flaming Fist, Amnish Centurions, Saradush Militia) after a failed theft attempt instead of having to face them in combat. The amount of gold that needs to be paid depends on the party's reputation or the charisma score of the party member who had committed the theft.
This system combined with Fallout 2's ability to show what characters are carrying and the success of the pickpocket attempt being weighted by a dice roll modified by the PC's skill (bonus), item's size (malus) and the number of items attempted (malus) is the ideal IMO. The only thing I would modify is how in Fallout 1/2, you can instantly see all the items available on a character to steal regardless of your skill. I would modify that so that larger items are more easily detected while smaller items less so. Some small items could be flagged as carelessly held such as watches, external money-pouches, bulging wallets etc. Items like notes in pockets (aka quest-bait) would be the hardest to detect. Regardless of size, sizing up what an NPC is carrying would be fairly trivial for a character who makes stealing a character development priority, but would reduce cheesing potential from min-maxers who want to use steal to survey the pockets of every NPC.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom