A successful example of Pickpocket skill implementation?

[Space Satan]

So far vast majority of RPGs follow the same pattern regarding Pickpocket or Stealing skills.
1. Use Pickpocket.
2. Fail.
3. Get attacked by entire town\settlement and Reload.
Anyone could remember interesting examples of games with stealing and stuff that does not force players to reload because entire area turns hostile and present them with different penalties or maluses?

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

 

[octavius]

Thief: The Dark Project

 

[Somberlain]

Dragon Age: Origins

 

[Blaine]

As I see it, a major issue with pickpocketing is that RPGs tend to lack crowds of any sort: a crowded theater, busy city streets, etc. Due to CPU, GPU, engine, and/or design limitations (money), you get about twelve people in each town.

With crowds, it would be feasible to simulate failing but not being identified, or being tentatively identified but vanishing into the crowd before anyone can really do much of anything.

It might also feasible that if your character pickpockets someone and gets caught, but is able to run away and hide quickly/effectively enough, you escape immediate consequences but gain a little bit of "infamy," increasing the odds (note I say "odds"; I don't mean a straightforward reputation system wherein everyone in town automatically knows that you're a -5 Scumbag) that people will recognize you as a troublemaker when you're trying to get up to no good, meaning that eventually a town or city become too hot to operate in safely.

Let's be real, though: This is far too much effort for the average development team to even approach implementing. If you get caught, it's the same as stamping on an infant and the entire town will try to murder you on the spot, even if they're in their house all the way across the map when it happens.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Realms of Arkania did it decently, you can only pickpocket in taverns and if you get caught you can't go back there. Same with stealing from stores if I remember correctly.

 

[ghostdog]

I like the arcanum/fallout approach but without the RNG -if you have the skill you should pickpocket, if not you don't-- where you can also put stuff into their pockets. Apart from the awesome fun that is to put bombs and blow them up, it could also be great if you could put incriminating evidence and accuse them of crimes. I don't think that in arcanum/fallout you could plant evidence in such a manner but maybe I'm wrong.

Of course it's mandatory that all "named" npcs have unique loot, because as we all know random itemization sucks.

 

[DraQ]

DOS approach kind of works but it's awfully game'y and artificial (OTOH its sneak implementation with cones of sight is 100% poetry).

I nominate TES games, because while still typical in being completely reliant on RNG they allow you to recover from RNG induced failure and (in later games, including that dismal turd of oblivion) allow circumstantial bonuses like when target is sleeping.
Of course Skyrim sadly added the lunacy of merely peeking into target's inventory not being penalized.

A truly good picpocket system would have to be more involved than selecting the target then items you wish to abscond with and hoping that 1 or 2 rolls succeed.

 

[Cosmo]

DOS approach kind of works but it's awfully game'y and artificial.

A gamist approache can feel weird, but unfortunately I don't see a perfect solution on the simulationist side of things either...
Sure, some exist or could exist but they're far from ideal (excluding systems à la Thief, that depend on player skill) :
- hard skill requirements à la Arcanum that eliminate reloading but also feel gamey ;
- soft skill requirements : those are an open invitation to savescum, but you could introduce new variables (target is sleeping, alone/in a group, trusts/mistrusts you, etc), although pickpocketing being way too minor an aspect in most of RPGs, it's only natural no programer will ever put the time to do that ;
- the same problem arises with synergy between skills (fast-talking your way out of failure, creating a distraction, etc) to avoid hard failstate and thus constant reloading ;
- a soft implementation of failstates could be the best : not that hard to program (still eating up ressources though) : you could allow a few misses before punishing the player, or each time decrease player reputation... those are only examples.

The problem here as i see it is that PPing is fixable, but at a cost that'll be hardly worth considering for a developer.

 

[Alex]

DOS approach kind of works but it's awfully game'y and artificial.

A gamist approache can feel weird, but unfortunately I don't see a perfect solution on the simulationist side of things either...
Sure, some exist or could exist but they're far from ideal (excluding systems à la Thief, that depend on player skill) :
- hard skill requirements à la Arcanum that eliminate reloading but also feel gamey ;
- soft skill requirements : those are an open invitation to savescum, but you could introduce new variables (target is sleeping, alone/in a group, trusts/mistrusts you, etc), although pickpocketing being way too minor an aspect in most of RPGs, it's only natural no programer will ever put the time to do that ;
- the same problem arises with synergy between skills (fast-talking your way out of failure, creating a distraction, etc) to avoid hard failstate and thus constant reloading ;
- a soft implementation of failstates could be the best : not that hard to program (still eating up ressources though) : you could allow a few misses before punishing the player, or each time decrease player reputation... those are only examples.

The problem here as i see it is that PPing is fixable, but at a cost that'll be hardly worth considering for a developer.

Just use ironman mode.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

So far vast majority of RPGs follow the same pattern regarding Pickpocket or Stealing skills.
1. Use Pickpocket.
2. Fail.
3. Get attacked by entire town\settlement and Reload.
Anyone could remember interesting examples of games with stealing and stuff that does not force players to reload because entire area turns hostile and present them with different penalties or maluses?

Fallout 2 (and to lesser extent 1), at least it allowed player to mess with people. It was also actually somewhat useful in leveling.

ADwR had a couple of interesting quests based on pickpocketing.

But yeah, while burglary and sneaking is often represented in games by interesting scenarios and mechanics, pickpocket remains underused. Not surprising, given that we hadn't seen a thief-orientated games in general since Thief 1-3 (Thi4f is an abomination which should not be named), and thief-orientated RPGs since probably ADwR and some other NWN mods.

It's a real pity though, because to play as pickpocket could be very interesting. For example, you start a game as a street urchin, learning the ropes, stealing from drunks and easy marks. You can be a pickpocket, or a runner, or a decoy. Then a time-skip, you grow up, and if you're successful - you move up the ranks. Now you are moving to harder marks - for example, you get yourself a nice suit or dress, learn to talk like a somewhat educated man\woman, and operate in theaters, courthouses, and so on. We can mix it with an advancement throw the rank plot, with internal politics of thieves' guild, or a gang, or a criminal organization.
It could be either open world simulationist game, where you need mouse control and reaction to successfully pull off pickpocketing attempt, or interesting gamist mechanic, something a cross of AoD with ADwR. Now I would play the shit out of either of such games. Too bad that we probably will never see them.

 

[Cosmo]

Just use ironman mode.

You know what they say about pointing out the moon to an idiot...

 

[thesheeep]

Just use ironman mode.

This will just lead to the player never using the pickpocketing skill in almost any game, as the risk is most likely never worth it.

 

[Alex]

Just use ironman mode.

You know what they say about pointing out the moon to an idiot...

Well, more than half of the issues people have with doing stuff in a "simulationist" way is that when you consider the player can save and load, it breaks. Of course it breaks! You are trying to pattern the game as if it was really a distinct world, then you add in a mechanic that is completely ungrounded in the game's world and goes against the very idea of there being several differente consequences for your actions.

You could try to do something "softer", that is, add some other kind of consequence to loading. But that is going to be "gamey" as well, because you are basically trying to save a "gamey" feature.

 

[Alex]

Just use ironman mode.

This will just lead to the player never using the pickpocketing skill in almost any game, as the risk is most likely never worth it.

That is just a balancing issue.

 

[Xeon]

If mods count, Baldur's Gates with Rogue Re-balancing mod handles it well enough I think, it lets you steal without aggoring the NPCs most times. If you fail you can try and play it off depending on your stats or reps, if you can't you lose 2 reps.

Revised NPC behavior on failed theft attempts

In the unmodded game, a merchant would instantly turn hostile (and often try to attack a fully equipped, combat-ready party) whenever a party member failed to steal an item from his store. Similarly, neutral, non-joinable NPCs would simply turn hostile after a failed pickpocket attempt. This component alters that behavior as follows:

• Merchants will no longer turn hostile after a failed theft attempt. They will instead opt to report the theft to their superiors (thereby lowering the party's reputation) and refuse to have any further dealings with the party
• A PC can now talk his way out of a failed theft/pickpocket attempt if one of his mental attributes and/or Lore and Reputation score is high enough
• Neutral, non-joinable NPCs will now initiate a special dialogue after a failed pickpocket attempt rather than simply turn hostile
• If a familiar fails a pickpocket check against a non-hostile NPC it will be reprimanded (which will make it run around in panic for a short while)

In summary, whenever you fail a theft or a pickpocket attempt, you now get various dialogue options for dealing with the situation depending on your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Lore and Reputation scores. The initial requirements are fairly low (12 for either of the mental attributes, 20 for Lore, 14 for good Reputation and 7 for bad Reputation). However, each NPC keeps track of how many times you've tried to talk your way out of a theft, and the aforementioned requirements exponentially rise with every further failed attempt. Also, even with the highest attribute scores, you can have no more than 3 botched theft attempts per NPC. After that, no amount of talking will be able to convince that particular NPC of your "innocence". Lastly, this component allows parties with a high reputation and party members with a charisma score above 10 to pay a fine to various law enforcers (Flaming Fist, Amnish Centurions, Saradush Militia) after a failed theft attempt instead of having to face them in combat. The amount of gold that needs to be paid depends on the party's reputation or the charisma score of the party member who had committed the theft.

 

[Dreaad]

Gothic 2 and 3. Can't remember if Risen series had it.

There was no severe consequences for failing BUT you did need to invest skill points which is a form of consequence as SP were quite limited. Aside from that the other main thing was that you could only attempt to pick pocket a person once, after that the option disappeared regardless of success or failure. In most situations you just stole some gold though in a few areas you could get keys, which would let you avoid combat or quests.

As an aside I really thought the stealth/thievery aspect in the Gothic series was pretty great. The fact that you could only steal limited amounts from each city was really well done (the guards would blame you after a while for things going missing because you were the new guy in town). Worked especially well in Gothic 3, where there was multiple cities and a specific 'fast talk skill' which increased the threshold of the amount of crime you could get away with before the guards outright attacked you.

 

[Space Satan]

I, personally, try to see the solution for classic BG-like and other isometric games, no matter turn based or real time and how thievery could be a viable option for players to invest skill points, attributes or other highly-valued game resources in this branch.
Also, I prefer this kind of thievery to feature in the games, but alas, hardly someone will ever put any effort in this aspect:

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Ultima Online had Stealth, Snooping, Stealing skills. It had tools such as the Pickpocket Dip. You could steal from containers, chests, NPCs and other players. If you failed to steal from an NPC, guards in this vicinity would come looking for you and you would be flagged a criminal. Natural consequences usually ensued if you failed against another player, but never before they inspected you to see if you could kick their ass. Fun times.

 

[thesheeep]

This will just lead to the player never using the pickpocketing skill in almost any game, as the risk is most likely never worth it.

That is just a balancing issue.

I agree, but most games are not designed around iron man playstyle.
So it's more a practical than a theoretical hindrance

 

[Dorateen]

Crusaders of the Dark Savant where the skill was appropriately labeled Legerdemain.

 

[a Goat]

Apart from the awesome fun that is to put bombs and blow them up, it could also be great if you could put incriminating evidence and accuse them of crimes. I don't think that in arcanum/fallout you could plant evidence in such a manner but maybe I'm wrong.

I recall being able to plant poisoned air tank for Salvatore(which would kill him slower than just stealing the tank and give you more time for escape).

The problem with implementing thievery right is that regardless of the way you implement it, grinding random encounters(if they exist) is more profitable and reliable way of getting money(especially if you're using some quasi RNG systems for it).

And as economy can't really be improved(too much thought and work needs to be put into relatively unimportant thing), the best way to deal with it without making thievery of any kind OP/UP is to make it more of an intelligence than thievery. As in it's a way of finding clues etc. rather than another stream of revenue.

 

[gestalt11]

Ultima Online had Stealth, Snooping, Stealing skills. It had tools such as the Pickpocket Dip. You could steal from containers, chests, NPCs and other players. If you failed to steal from an NPC, guards in this vicinity would come looking for you and you would be flagged a criminal. Natural consequences usually ensued if you failed against another player, but never before they inspected you to see if you could kick their ass. Fun times.

UO had no save scumming. The single player games are basically unbalancable via risk vs reward but try to do it anyway except for the few with pure threshold mechanics like gothic. If getting caught was actually a fun-ish side activity in and of itself, i.e. a chase that was mechanically interesting and you get some reputation with the underworld and some noteriety with the guards, maybe that would pan out OK in the single player.

The problem many single player games have is that many "real world-like" solutions become basically completely pointless or trivialized by save systems. That doesn't mean you should not have a save system, just that you need to think about things from a different angle that probably has to involve something fun rather than something more risk vs reward based. There is no real risk when you can save at any time. Many players and developers have never accepted this.

 

[Athelas]

Make pickpocketing deterministic and assign a 'suspicion' rating to every item. If the suspicion rating of an item exceeds the level of your pickpocketing skill, you can't pickpocket it (without being caught). If succesful, the suspicion rating of that item will be added to the suspicion rating of every other item from that NPC, making subsequent pickpocketing attempts aimed at the same NPC harder to pull off.