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2017/09/27 - Mask of the Betrayer is now a decade old.

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
It doesn't change the fact that it felt unfinished.

Well you're wrong because Ziets said that the game that shipped was the game he set out to write. :M
I know that pitch, but it doesn't change the fact that it felt unfinished, for the many reasons stated.

This just suggests that Ziets himself never played through the entirety of the finished product or - just possible - Ziets is actually a shit writer.
Again, your choices as given by Kelemvor IN THE GAME is to get transported to a plane of your choice or stay with him guarding the wall. There is no third option where you get to walk two steps out the gates, turn and charge the wall.

Your call.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
You can't go back to the City of the Dead. That is the point. There is nothing you can do. Do you think Kelemvor is going to let you come back through the portal? Really? He probably sealed that way into his domain. Remember, he LET you get as far as you did. After he sent you home, there is no reason for him to be that lenient any more. How are you going to get back to the City?
Wait, why not? Did Kelemvor somehow seal of the city so tight that you can never get in? But if that is so, how does Kaelyn manage it so easily? She obviously isn't welcome there either (in fact, Kelemvor explicitly says so), yet in her ending she is liberating souls left and right. How? And what about all those demon parties that regularly warp in the city, tear down a piece of the wall and then turn those souls into more demons? Why the fuck isn't he stopping them? Is it because:

a) he is unwilling do to something about Kaelyn or the demons (in which case, why the fuck would he care about the PC helping Kaelyn)
b) he is unable to stop either Kaelyn or the demons (in which case, why would he be able to stop Kaelyn and another epic level spellcaster)

See, I see it as a little bit of both. He is very powerful in his realm, but not omnipotent, and for smaller scale problems that's what his city guard is for. Otherwise, how the fuck are all those demon raids possible? I think those are a much bigger problem than a couple of souls saved by Kaelyn or, for that matter, Kaelyn and the PC.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Wait, why not? Did Kelemvor somehow seal of the city so tight that you can never get in? But if that is so, how does Kaelyn manage it so easily? She obviously isn't welcome there either (in fact, Kelemvor explicitly says so), yet in her ending she is liberating souls left and right. How? And what about all those demon parties that regularly warp in the city, tear down a piece of the wall and then turn those souls into more demons? Why the fuck isn't he stopping them? Is it because:

a) he is unwilling do to something about Kaelyn or the demons (in which case, why the fuck would he care about the PC helping Kaelyn)
b) he is unable to stop either Kaelyn or the demons (in which case, why would he be able to stop Kaelyn and another epic level spellcaster)

See, I see it as a little bit of both. He is very powerful in his realm, but not omnipotent, and for smaller scale problems that's what his city guard is for. Otherwise, how the fuck are all those demon raids possible? I think those are a much bigger problem than a couple of souls saved by Kaelyn or, for that matter, Kaelyn and the PC.
Hello! That is what I have been saying all along! It is all inconsistent BECAUSE it doesn't follow established lore!

The simplest answer is that the writers didn't know jack and that Kaelyn was a badly written author self-insert that can do anything and get away with it. Even her massive Wisdom score is a lie because she rants like a child whenever her pet project is questioned. Using such a thing as an example of why can't X do Y is ludicrous.

In fact, every single one of your views in the above post has been explicitly stated and explained in FR lore. And you are wrong. Every single time. Why do you think I hate the Kaelyn character so much? Because she is a walking violation of FR lore!
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
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Yes, yes. Except that what Kaelyn does is exactly what those demon raiding party also do, only they do it a lot more and, oh yeah, they turn the souls they take into demons. And yet Kelemvor is not stopping them either, either because he is unwilling, unable or both. And that piece of info comes not (only) from the game, but from the actual Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, which, when it comes to actually playing the game (pnp or crpg) is worth a hell of a lot more than some purely fluff piece of work, no matter how entertainingly it is written.

So, the problem is not that what Kaelyn does is a violation of the lore, because those demon raiding parties are the lore and they do the same damn thing only worse. But it might be in those fluff books you mentioned if they contradict this.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Yes, yes. Except that what Kaelyn does is exactly what those demon raiding party also do, only they do it a lot more and, oh yeah, they turn the souls they take into demons. And yet Kelemvor is not stopping them either, either because he is unwilling, unable or both. And that piece of info comes not (only) from the game, but from the actual Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, which, when it comes to actually playing the game (pnp or crpg) is worth a hell of a lot more than some purely fluff piece of work, no matter how entertainingly it is written.

So, the problem is not that what Kaelyn does is a violation of the lore, because those demon raiding parties are the lore and they do the same damn thing only worse. But it might be in those fluff books you mentioned if they contradict this.
Claiming that a greter deity is unable to do anything in his seat of power shows that you have no idea in the slightest how the FR cosmology works.

You refuse to read up on the lore, you refuse to learn the background as to why Kelemvor acts the way he acts, you just want your version of events to be the truth. Kaelyn is a crap character and not a single thing you said have proven otherwise. If I were Kelemvor, I would have exploded her a long time ago, but perhaps he has a soft spot for his ex-Doomguard or her grandfather pleaded on her behalf and Kelemvor agreed. Who knows? But they are better hypotheses than you shit theory that a greater deity is unable do something in his own backyard.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
Sigh, yes, this is getting stale. For my final post on this, I will just say that according to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, the motherfucking bible when it comes what the fluff and crunch in the setting are, Kelemvor doesn't actually care about those raiding parties as long as they don't piss him off too much by taking someone important. Oh yeah, when they make a hole in the wall they invade the actual city and take prisoners from the city as well. So I guess that answer my question - if he doesn't really give a fuck about demons doing this, he would not give half a fuck about Kaelyn saving a few souls from the wall. And that's what the actual lore is, and not something inferred in some barely above fanfiction tier fluff novel. Cheers.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484

This would also have been an acceptable ending. In fact, if it would shut the goddamned naytheists up for good, can someone please make a mod to insert this option?

BOOM! Headshot! Game over. Goodbye. Now, piss off.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Sigh, yes, this is getting stale. For my final post on this, I will just say that according to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, the motherfucking bible when it comes what the fluff and crunch in the setting are, Kelemvor doesn't actually care about those raiding parties as long as they don't piss him off too much by taking someone important. Oh yeah, when they make a hole in the wall they invade the actual city and take prisoners from the city as well. So I guess that answer my question - if he doesn't really give a fuck about demons doing this, he would not give half a fuck about Kaelyn saving a few souls from the wall. And that's what the actual lore is, and not something inferred in some barely above fanfiction tier fluff novel. Cheers.
No. The book doesn't give the reason why he doesn't retaliate. It also says he does retaliate if a limit was reached. His reasons are unknown and that is up to people to speculate. Nowhere does it says he doesn't give a crap about what is happening.

Your entire argument is that Kelemvor is an uncaring deity that don't give a crap about anything, when the lore is that he does care. Even in the FRCS, it is stated that he cares TOO MUCH, and as a result was prone to doing things without thinking it through. The fact that you refuse to educate yourself is what makes your entire argument ludicrous. All you do is cherrypick lines that seem to support your argument and ignore everything else. Typical naytheist.
 

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
Up next: why Mephasm's positive characterisation is an atheistic insult that shakes the hallowed and immutable foundations of Catholicism uhhhh Realmslore.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
That damned Avellone raping Star Wars lore, then this. :argh:
He's worse than Bethesda!
Avellone isn't as good as everyone claims he is. I am not saying he is bad. He is good, but he isn't even remotely great. He has his hang-ups like everyone else.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Okay, there are so many things about NWN 2 and especially MOTB that seem like I'll enjoy, but I gotta ask, how long did it take you guys to cope with the UI? I feel like I'm constantly fighting the game at every turn to get anything done. None of the three modes seem to really do a good job. Strategic is the most manageable but rotating it can be super clunky.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Well, I've learned to almost tolerate the UI. I've decided to stop mucking around with the different modes and just stay in Exploration Mode and treat it like NWN 1. The only problem I'm having now is with the AI. It takes a lot of tinkering to get it to the basic level of "Do basic shit on your own but otherwise wait for orders" that was the party AI in BG.

I'm generally enjoying things, but holy hell is it frustrating at times. I kinda wanna snap my keyboard everytime a frontliner says "Oh hey, I'm gonna attack the guy I'm next to, but I'm not just gonna swing at him. I'm going to run away and then go around and attack him from the other side. Not only does this mean I lose half my health in AoOs, but it also means the Rogue is no longer flanking and loses their Sneak Attacks. I am a tactical genius."

I feel like I'm forced to choose between either turning the AI off and having to micromanage every little thing, or letting my party flail around and get in each others way. I'm sure in time I'll get used to it and figure out a setting that works for me but it is just infuriating right now.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
EVEN AS HER WINGS GO BLACK

so emo lol
Well...

Compare

6256f3b24e68ff72a69dcc77d5895b18--warrior-angel-fantasy-girl.jpg
with
2ef06628a124c6b9aa91454a2435266c--character-portraits-female-characters.jpg


One's an angel, the other a devil. The link becomes pretty clear to DnD fans.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,053
And that's what the actual lore is, and not something inferred in some barely above fanfiction tier fluff novel. Cheers.

You seem to be assuming that D&D lore and cosmology is any good.

All this shit over something someone wrote in a capaign book an what someone else wrote in a game long down the line...
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
Since I actually have some of those god-awful fluff books on my shelf from my younger days, I can assure you I have no such assumptions.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
8,600
Location
Deutschland
I'm generally enjoying things, but holy hell is it frustrating at times. I kinda wanna snap my keyboard everytime a frontliner says "Oh hey, I'm gonna attack the guy I'm next to, but I'm not just gonna swing at him. I'm going to run away and then go around and attack him from the other side. Not only does this mean I lose half my health in AoOs, but it also means the Rogue is no longer flanking and loses their Sneak Attacks. I am a tactical genius."

I feel like I'm forced to choose between either turning the AI off and having to micromanage every little thing, or letting my party flail around and get in each others way. I'm sure in time I'll get used to it and figure out a setting that works for me but it is just infuriating right now.
If you lose half your health to AoOs it means you 1) don't comprehend the significance of Armor Class, how could they hit you so much if you did? and 2) don't understand the significance of the tumble skill, a rating of 14 makes you virtually immune to AoOs and that includes Dex bonus modifier added to tumble and skill buffs like heroism, prayer etc, so 14 isn't hard to reach.
armor class is gud
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
I'm generally enjoying things, but holy hell is it frustrating at times. I kinda wanna snap my keyboard everytime a frontliner says "Oh hey, I'm gonna attack the guy I'm next to, but I'm not just gonna swing at him. I'm going to run away and then go around and attack him from the other side. Not only does this mean I lose half my health in AoOs, but it also means the Rogue is no longer flanking and loses their Sneak Attacks. I am a tactical genius."

I feel like I'm forced to choose between either turning the AI off and having to micromanage every little thing, or letting my party flail around and get in each others way. I'm sure in time I'll get used to it and figure out a setting that works for me but it is just infuriating right now.
If you lose half your health to AoOs it means you 1) don't comprehend the significance of Armor Class, how could they hit you so much if you did? and 2) don't understand the significance of the tumble skill, a rating of 14 makes you virtually immune to AoOs and that includes Dex bonus modifier added to tumble and skill buffs like heroism, prayer etc, so 14 isn't hard to reach.
armor class is gud
I have never seen the kind of running around AI that is being described in NWN2. I have had anywhere between 3-10 companions in the field at a time before and even in the chaos of a massive orc swarm, I have never had a companion run around and gathering AoO while trying to strike at an enemy next to him.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
If you lose half your health to AoOs it means you 1) don't comprehend the significance of Armor Class, how could they hit you so much if you did? and 2) don't understand the significance of the tumble skill, a rating of 14 makes you virtually immune to AoOs and that includes Dex bonus modifier added to tumble and skill buffs like heroism, prayer etc, so 14 isn't hard to reach.
armor class is gud

I suppose I should have noted that I'm playing through the base NWN 2 campaign first to try and get a feel for the interface, style, and idiosyncracies of the ruleset implementation so I can fully experience MotB without having to worry about all those things. So until I get a bit further into it, AC is limited to what my companions start with and Tumble is basically nonexistent.
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,649
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Hi Ziets. http://gziets.tumblr.com/post/169157970313/a-retrospective-on-the-mask

A Retrospective on the Mask
http://gziets.tumblr.com/post/169157970313/a-retrospective-on-the-mask

It’s hard to believe that it’s been ten years since Mask of the Betrayer… actually, at the time I’m writing this (in the final days of 2017), the ten-year anniversary has just about passed. After all this time, Mask remains the most fun project I’ve ever worked on, and I wouldn’t want to let the moment go by without spilling a few secrets about why the game worked pretty well (while others didn’t).

tumblr_inline_p1uac0JoOm1rioa5a_500.png


The story took a really long time to write.
I started work on the Mask narrative in late spring / early summer of 2006, while the NWN2 team was still in the “polish and bug-fixing” phase. The first few months were mostly brainstorming. I had freedom to do pretty much anything with the narrative, so it took me a while to settle on a hook that I really liked. For a while, the player was going to become a minor deity at the beginning of the game, and the expansion would focus on the travails of a new deity in the Forgotten Realms universe… but it quickly became clear that we didn’t have the budget to create all the new creatures, items, and game systems to support a deity-level campaign. So I kept thinking about other ways to make the expansion a unique experience, and I finally settled upon the spirit-eater curse – a magical affliction that would give the player some near-godlike abilities but could still take place (mostly) in the mortal world.

Even after that first major decision was made, I spent weeks reading through Obsidian’s library of Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, picking out elements that got me excited (the Wall of the Faithless, the lore of Rashemen and Thay), and then figuring out how to weave together a story that would incorporate them all.

That was a long and intensive process, with tons of rewrites, tweaks, and iterations. For the whole second half of 2006, I probably didn’t have a spare moment when I wasn’t thinking about the story, going over and over it in my head, and trying to think of ways to make it better. Mask’s narrative wasn’t truly finished until December 2006, when the first zone of the game (Okku’s barrow) was already underway.

Don’t get me wrong - that grueling, painstaking process was totally worth it – the story wouldn’t have been as strong if I hadn’t put in all that time. In my experience, memorable stories take a lot of deep thought and iteration, and if you don’t have the time (or your schedule doesn’t allow for it), your story may be decent, but it likely won’t be great.

I’ve worked on some games where the story needs to be developed in a very short time – e.g., a week or less. It’s possible to craft a simple, competent narrative in that time, but the chances are good that you’ll still need to iterate a lot during development to make it stronger, and your game will probably not be remembered for its story.

I find that the time required for story and world development are often underestimated in the games industry, though studios that have made a lot of narrative-focused games are starting to schedule more realistically. (Still, the realities of game development, like publisher contracts, don’t often allow for sufficient story development time, which is part of the reason that a lot of game stories aren’t that great.)

On Mask, it also helped that we dedicated one writer (me) to craft the high-level story AND write all the main story dialogues. Sometimes division of responsibility is unavoidable, but if one person has the high-level vision for the game’s narrative, it’s much easier for that person to write all the story moments. They know exactly what needs to be communicated and what the player has already learned, so they can carefully control the flow of information to the player. If the main story is divided up between multiple writers, information flow can become a major problem… and a source of confusion for the player.

Mask had the benefit of low expectations… and no external interference.
When “NX1” (Neverwinter Expansion 1) was first described to me, it was pitched as a simple hack-and-slash adventure. Neverwinter Nights 2 was expected to do reasonably well, and the expansion would be a quick, relatively low-cost way to provide a followup product to fans. (Expansions never sell as well as the original product, so their budgets are proportionately reduced.)

I was not particularly excited about making a hack-and-slasher, so I pushed back on that particular point. To the credit of our lead, Kevin Saunders, he allowed me to pursue a much more expansive vision that required more work and longer hours. (Our schedule was not going to change, but if we could get more work done in the same amount of time, we could deliver something grander. Of course, not every lead would have trusted their team enough to give them a shot.)

Also, because Mask was expected to be a simple hack-and-slasher, the publisher paid little attention to what we were doing. Effectively, we operated under most people’s radar. This was great because we were able to pursue a vision that was shared among the team and didn’t suffer from interference from outside.

As in any industry, outside interference is a reality of game development. Sometimes it works out fine, as when higher-ups are heavily invested in a franchise, understand the core vision, and give well-informed feedback that improves the product. But the more a publisher or executive is separated from the project, the more likely they’ll give direction that doesn’t strengthen the game.

Case in point. Years ago, when I was working on Earth & Beyond (a science fiction MMO) for EA-Westwood, executives would occasionally fly in from California to play the latest build of the game. On one of these visits, the executives decided that they didn’t like the existing story and wanted the main narrative to be focused on a war instead. This meant that the lead writer (not me) had to rewrite everything she had done so far. The resulting story was fine… but the massive change invalidated many of the quests that the team had already built. So with months left on the clock before release, we had to create all new material to replace what was lost, which meant that we didn’t have enough time to finish the rest of the content we had originally planned. When Earth & Beyond shipped, one of the biggest complaints was that we didn’t have enough quests and other things to do, a problem that could be traced directly to that outside interference.

Mask never had a problem like that. Everybody on the team knew the vision, it never changed (apart from minor improvements along the way), and our schedule played out as expected.

We were able to focus on quests and narrative… not new game systems.
Designing the core systems of a game has one thing in common with designing a story - it can take a lot of time and iteration to get it right. But unlike story design, systems design requires multiple people – designers to write documents defining the gameplay and programmers to implement those designs. Then they play and test… and iterate… over and over again until the gameplay feels fun. It can be a long and unpredictable process, and if you start designing levels and quests before that process is finished, you might have to redesign those levels and quests when the gameplay changes. I’ve seen many games run into problems because their gameplay isn’t finalized before the design team starts building levels.

And if the game systems are new, level designers may not know how to build fun content with the new systems. That’s why expansions are sometimes more fun than the original game. Over the course of development, the team has figured out what works and what doesn’t, and they can apply all those lessons to the expansion.

Dungeon Siege 3 is a great example of this. DS3 diverted from the standard gameplay of the previous Dungeon Siege games, and it took us a while to figure out how to make fun levels using the new systems. By the time we developed the expansion, we’d figured out the winning formula - but by then, most people had written off the game.

Mask of the Betrayer, on the other hand, had no new systems. The core design team (Eric Fenstermaker, Jeff Husges, Tony Evans, and I) had all designed levels, combat encounters, and quests for NWN2, and we knew what worked and what didn’t. Three of us (Eric, Jeff, and I) had shared an office. We didn’t have to worry about learning new tools or figuring out each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Instead, we could focus all our energy on creating great quests and narrative, and that gave us a big advantage.

We let the themes arise naturally.
Some writers will disagree with me here, but I’ve found that it’s better to avoid thinking about themes and deeper meanings until after your main story is written. On Mask, I didn’t write a “themes” document at first. I let the themes arise naturally from the work… as they almost always do. Your subconscious will seed your work with recurring ideas and motifs, and as long as you’re attentive to them, you can identify and reinforce them later.

For example, the most obvious thematic element in Mask – the idea of “masks” – didn’t appear until after I’d written the story and decided to set the game in Rashemen. I started to notice that masks – in various forms – were cropping up in the narrative I’d written, so I reinforced that element (in names, like “The Veil,” in dialogue references, in items, etc.) as I fleshed everything out. The title of the game didn’t appear until close to the end of development, when Kevin asked me to propose some names for the expansion. Until then, it was just “NX1.”

In my experience, starting narrative development with a theme – rather than a fun or emotional story hook – can lead to a story that feels preachy or emotionally empty. That may not be the case for everyone, but I do think it’s a harder road to tread.

Happy New Year, and good gaming in 2018!
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,768
In my experience, starting narrative development with a theme – rather than a fun or emotional story hook – can lead to a story that feels preachy or emotionally empty.

What does one life matter indeed.
 

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