2017/09/27 - Mask of the Betrayer is now a decade old.

[Cael]

I don't have a response to that, you are just incoherently babbling and I have no idea what you are trying to say. What I do know, however, is that you are obviously a loser who has no idea what he is talking about or how to talk about it. Yeah, that's an ad hominem, deal with it.

Ah. Deliberate obtuseness in the face of getting called in your nonsense. Phase 2 of denial. Brilliant!

Listen, honey, going to mass and wearing a cross doesn't make you a Catholic (or Christian, for that matter) any more than blowing up infidels and guzzling beer makes you a muslim. In your arguments for Kaelyn based on the whole "it's not fair" nonsense, you have proven that you failed to grasp the fundamental concepts of faith. Even when it was point out to you why that argument fails horribly, you still persists in it. You are the living embodiment of the arrogance and "f-you, God (or in this case, gods), I'm right, and YOU are UNJUST!" that is the very first and most deadly sin. That you claim to be a Catholic is a laughable lie.

 

[Lacrymas]

What are you even talking about? I honestly don't understand. Your posts are full of fallacious extrapolations that I've never said nor hinted at. You didn't "point out" anything, you put out no arguments at all. Being a Catholic is not about blind faith or only about faith, which is what you are insinuating, that's such a gross misrepresentation and it dumbs down religion to simply servitude, as opposed to a coherent worldview. Religion =/= faith. The Catholic position regarding justice, straight from the words of Pope Benedict XVI (from Jesus of Nazareth, vol. II, page 225 (of the translation I have)) is that the Christian God is on the side of those who are oppressed, beaten and humiliated (I'm translating it) -

Since Jesus let himself be tortured, the wounded, humiliated and oppressed have become the image of God who has wished to suffer for us. This is how Christ, among his Passion, is the example of hope: God is on the side of those who suffer.

 

[MilesBeyond]

I keep meaning to give this a spin. Are there any core mods I should check out? As in mods for the base campaigns themselves. I remember the last time I tried NWN2 it was buggy and the interface was a little clunky and I was wondering if there'd been anything to change that. Unfortunately every time I search for mods I need to sift through a ton of modules which, while they look very cool, aren't exactly what I'm looking for right now.

 

[Cael]

What are you even talking about? I honestly don't understand. Your posts are full of fallacious extrapolations that I've never said nor hinted at. You didn't "point out" anything, you put out no arguments at all.

You keep telling yourself that. None so blind as they who refuse to see. Play the confused victim all you want, but it won't change the fact that you basically believe that God in unjust and wrong... just as Kaelyn accuses her gods. You are a laugh riot.

In fact, I don't even know why Kaelyn is a cleric of a god of Good. Which god of Good would not want to upset the status quo as she wants, PARTICULARLY a LAWFUL GOOD god. Kaelyn is Chaotic Good at best. There is so many things wrong with Kaelyn that it is obvious that she is nothing but an author self-insert with little to no connection to the established lore.

 

[Cael]

I keep meaning to give this a spin. Are there any core mods I should check out? As in mods for the base campaigns themselves. I remember the last time I tried NWN2 it was buggy and the interface was a little clunky and I was wondering if there'd been anything to change that. Unfortunately every time I search for mods I need to sift through a ton of modules which, while they look very cool, aren't exactly what I'm looking for right now.

Depends on what you are looking for. I believe there are mods that add races, classes and PrCs to the game, but the base game itself has a pretty extensive selection of races, classes and PrCs, esepecially if you have the two expansion packs as well.

Other than that, I don't think there were mods that changed the actual base OC or the like, at least not on a significant level.

 

[MilesBeyond]

I keep meaning to give this a spin. Are there any core mods I should check out? As in mods for the base campaigns themselves. I remember the last time I tried NWN2 it was buggy and the interface was a little clunky and I was wondering if there'd been anything to change that. Unfortunately every time I search for mods I need to sift through a ton of modules which, while they look very cool, aren't exactly what I'm looking for right now.

Depends on what you are looking for. I believe there are mods that add races, classes and PrCs to the game, but the base game itself has a pretty extensive selection of races, classes and PrCs, esepecially if you have the two expansion packs as well.

Other than that, I don't think there were mods that changed the actual base OC or the like, at least not on a significant level.

I suppose I'm mostly just checking if there isn't an unofficial patch of some sort, now that I think about it.

 

[Cael]

I suppose I'm mostly just checking if there isn't an unofficial patch of some sort, now that I think about it.

Not really. The game itself isn't buggy, It can be a bit memory intensive, IIRC, and loading new areas can take a (relative) while. It is far faster to load a game or enter a new area in NWN, for example, than NWN2. However, to compensate, your toon moves faster in general also, so you don't get the insanity inducing long wait times getting from A to B in an area.

I don't recall running into any game breaking bugs, but my game has all of the official patches on it.

 

[laclongquan]

Yeah, it is something of a feature that people of faith would mostly follow, or try to keep the status quo. Whenever they goes against it, that is generally because of the ambition of the ones manipulating, ie the clerics. See various peasants revolts in Europe and Japan. See the particular case of Martin Luther.

it seems generally the naysayers, the one who doesnt get comforted by a rosy afterlife, are the core of the revolutions. Generally so~

 

[Luckmann]

If I end up martyring myself or just getting killed because I'm a retard, that's on me. Flat-out not even offering a reasonable option relating to what you've been actually going for for a long time

That's time and effort that they couldn't afford to spend on a nonstandard game over (or an unwinnable fight that perhaps some dummy would endlessly retry hoping to succeed).

There's all kinds of possible excuses for why a game was unfinished. Many of them are perfectly valid from a resource standpoint, and perfectly understandable. They did what they could with what they had.

This is true for all of Obsidian's unfinished or unpolished stuff.

It doesn't change the fact that it felt unfinished.

 

[Zero Credibility]

You already have the choice to continue Akachi's legacy and join the crusade. What seems out of place to me, is that you are forced to leave a potentially trusted and loyal companion to go on without your help.

Yep, that's the part that bothered me the most when I played it. Not that you can't destroy the wall there and then, or talk Kelemvor into doing it or attacking him - but that the whole matter is immediately dropped and forgotten and Kaelyn continues on her own. "Destroy the wall Kelemvor, it is an unjust abomination created by a sadistic asshole." "Eh, no." "Well, ok then, bye."

Since I did decide to join the crusade I expected to at least be able to continue with Kaelyn. Tearing one soul at a time from the wall in a never ending crusade sounds a lot more interesting and heroic than fucking off back to Neverwinter to rejoin the retard collection that was the OC character cast. But noooo, I just had to hear about what that inane dwarf has been up to instead.

 

[Cael]

Since I did decide to join the crusade I expected to at least be able to continue with Kaelyn. Tearing one soul at a time from the wall in a never ending crusade sounds a lot more interesting and heroic than fucking off back to Neverwinter to rejoin the retard collection that was the OC character cast.

That is something that I find incomprehensible as well. Kelemvor should have just willed Kaelyn into exploding. The City of the Dead is his domain. As a greater diety, he could do just about anything in it, including blowing someone up without even being within miles of the guy. The writers dropped the ball again. Kaelyn was given plenty of warnings, and she is violating a basic law (unjust or not is irrelevant) laid down eons (in setting) ago that has been made into a foundation of the setting. As a Lawful Neutral deity, Kelemvor should have had no choice but to get rid of her to prevent her raiding and breaking the law. Then again, they also put into the game the fact that demons and devils raid the City of the Dead with impunity, which never happened in the novels due to the above mentioned suicide by greater deity. Heck, they didn't even dare to do it when Cyric was in charge, and that guy was a certified loony who paid so little attention to his realm and everything around him that Torm, of all people, appeared in his throne room, and his greatest bastion of worship in the Realms (Zhentil Keep) was razed to the ground without him knowing!

The writers have really showed their lack of knowledge of FR lore in that whole sequence.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I think it is pretty clear - Kelemvor is turning a blind eye to the whole thing as long as it doesn't cause too much chaos in the city. That's why he was letting the crusade go the way it did, why he lets Kaelyn get away with raids on the wall. Hell, he openly admits the injustice of the wall, only stating that it is necessary to avoid the greater evil (that being the gods throwing a fit for losing worshipers - he outright states it so).

And he isn't the only god to do so - Kaelyn is an active cleric of Ilmatter after all. I think it is safe to say that a significant opposition to the wall could exist among the good aligned gods.

 

[Luckmann]

That is something that I find incomprehensible as well. Kelemvor should have just willed Kaelyn into exploding. The City of the Dead is his domain. As a greater diety, he could do just about anything in it, including blowing someone up without even being within miles of the guy. The writers dropped the ball again. Kaelyn was given plenty of warnings, and she is violating a basic law (unjust or not is irrelevant) laid down eons (in setting) ago that has been made into a foundation of the setting. As a Lawful Neutral deity, Kelemvor should have had no choice but to get rid of her to prevent her raiding and breaking the law.

Lawful in the context of D&D does not entail following the law, but regards adherence to a set of principles one considers paramount to a good life or existence, and if you're Lawful Neutral it just means that you place those principles higher for long-term stability or good than any arbitrary notion of Good or Evil.

It's entirely true that Kelemvor could've nixed Kaelyn from anywhere within his own realm, or indeed the entirety of of the crusade - the omniscience and omnipotence of deities in their own realm is practically unlimited, whereas they are limited in reach outside of it. However, to say that Kelemvor would have no choice is simply wrong. Deities in D&D (at least of that era, I stopped caring with 4e) are not like deities in, say, Warhammer, and are actually their own individual personas, much more like entirely imperfect deities of European mythology (whether we're talking Greeco-Roman, Nordic or Egyptian). Kelemvor is only beholden to Ao and himself, and many (likely most) within the crusade likely knew full well that Kelemvor could choose to wipe them all out at any point, but were ready to martyr themselves or hoping that Kelemvor would not do so.

Then again, they also put into the game the fact that demons and devils raid the City of the Dead with impunity, which never happened in the novels due to the above mentioned suicide by greater deity. Heck, they didn't even dare to do it when Cyric was in charge, and that guy was a certified loony who paid so little attention to his realm and everything around him that Torm, of all people, appeared in his throne room, and his greatest bastion of worship in the Realms (Zhentil Keep) was razed to the ground without him knowing!

I wouldn't say with impunity, but I actually don't remember much of that, so I can't really comment. However, "this never happened in the novels!" is a pretty poor excuse, because in no way does that mean that it couldn't happen - it just means that it didn't happen in those novels at that time under those circumstances, etc. It's a non-argument.

I think it is pretty clear - Kelemvor is turning a blind eye to the whole thing as long as it doesn't cause too much chaos in the city. That's why he was letting the crusade go the way it did, why he lets Kaelyn get away with raids on the wall. Hell, he openly admits the injustice of the wall, only stating that it is necessary to avoid the greater evil (that being the gods throwing a fit for losing worshipers - he outright states it so).

And he isn't the only god to do so - Kaelyn is an active cleric of Ilmatter after all. I think it is safe to say that a significant opposition to the wall could exist among the good aligned gods.

Yeah, Kelemvor makesi t very clear that he empathizes with Kaelyn and the Crusade. He absolutely could make Kaelyn and everyone just melt, but he chooses not to, because of other considerations - one of which could very well be his own sense of mercy. He doesn't actually even interfere until you're right there and he can't let it go on any longer, and then dissuades you from this course of action. Kelemvor isn't malicious. He's just fulfilling a necessary role that he himself considers necessary; it doesn't mean he likes it, or that he bears ill will towards those that consider the wall unjust. He perfectly understands why others would consider the wall unjust.

He's much like a military officer called in to quell an uprising against the government; he might not even like the government, but he considers it a preferable alternative to anarchy. It does not mean that he would take pleasure in shooting at unarmed civilians. Because to Kelemvor, in his realm, even as powerful as Kaelyn and the crusade may be, that's essentially what they are - they've got sticks and stones at best, and Kelemvor has a plasma cannon capable of sniping single individuals from orbit.

 

[Cael]

I think it is pretty clear - Kelemvor is turning a blind eye to the whole thing as long as it doesn't cause too much chaos in the city. That's why he was letting the crusade go the way it did, why he lets Kaelyn get away with raids on the wall. Hell, he openly admits the injustice of the wall, only stating that it is necessary to avoid the greater evil (that being the gods throwing a fit for losing worshipers - he outright states it so).

And he isn't the only god to do so - Kaelyn is an active cleric of Ilmatter after all. I think it is safe to say that a significant opposition to the wall could exist among the good aligned gods.

Actually, he stated that he found the punishment met out to Akachi and by extension the PC is unjust. That is because Myrkul went AGAINST what the Wall was for to punish Akachi. Remember, you need to be an atheist to be stuck in the wall. Akachi wasn't. Sure, he betrayed Myrkul, but that made him a False, not a Faithless. A False wasn't supposed to be stuck in the Wall. That is why he turned a blind eye to it... THIS time.

On top of that, Myrkul ripped him out of the Wall in order to create the spirit eater curse to begin with. That, again, wasn't supposed to happen. In fact, the only other time we know it happened was when Cyric had Gwydion taken out of the wall before he got really eaten in order to be made into one of his clockwork knights. That didn't end well for Cyric either.

Kaelyn being an active cleric of Ilmater is something that I profoundly disagree with. I stated as much before here in this forum.

Regardless of what kind of retcon they did in order to make the Wall what it is, it is there to serve a purpose in the Realms. In the context of the Realms, it is there as the equivalent of Hell. Remember that in the Realms, EVERYONE goes to Paradise, or rather their version of Paradise. Even a worshipper of an Evil god goes to "heaven". So what happens to those that has no gods, and in fact has nothing but spite for all the gods? They had to go somewhere. That is the Wall. It is a removal of the presence of all gods, i.e., non-existence, something that those who are versed in the Christian doctrines would be familiar with.

Going against that basic foundation of the cosmology of the Realms should be profoundly against ALL clerical beliefs and teachings. It is like Christians thinking that Hell should not exist, that it is so profane and Evil that whoever that created it (or allowed it to be created) should be reviled, and that all people sent to Hell must be saved by pulling them out of Hell. And given what Christians believe about God... well, you draw the lines.

Whether Kelemvor agrees with it or not, it is his DUTY to look after the Wall. He has reasons to not meddle and wear that mask of his (namely the last time he tried to meddle in "injustice", it basically required Ao to sort things out, and Ao was NOT happy to have to interfere). So, yes, as a Lawful Neutral deity, he had no choice but to obliterate Kaelyn. Now, being a pretty nice guy (he was actually practically forced into taking up a LN alignment; he was originally closer to LG, IIRC), he would have given Kaelyn warnings and plenty of chances, but in the end, he would have to act, regardless of whether he liked it or not. That is his duty.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well, I'm speaking from the information that is presented in the game. And in the game it is clear why Kelmevor is letting the whole thing play out - he can't destroy the wall because he is forced to keep it by other gods (or they might take out their anger on the mortals - his words), and he can't be seen offering support to Kaelyn either, but apart from that he isn't going to lift his omnipotent finger to stop her. Because at least in part he agrees with her.

And Illmater is a-ok with the whole thing, something that also makes sense. Or are you saying that even Illmater, the god of mercy, thinks the wall is all right? The wall made by a giant flaming evil asshole that horribly destroys all that didn't worship one of those gods, including those that had no idea they should be or were simply unable to. Like those from other planes these gods don't bother visiting or because they were just too young - both examples given by Kaelyn for reasons for going rogue.

 

[Roguey]

It doesn't change the fact that it felt unfinished.

Well you're wrong because Ziets said that the game that shipped was the game he set out to write.

 

[Cael]

Well, I'm speaking from the information that is presented in the game. And in the game it is clear why Kelmevor is letting the whole thing play out - he can't destroy the wall because he is forced to keep it by other gods (or they might take out their anger on the mortals - his words), and he can't be seen offering support to Kaelyn either, but apart from that he isn't going to lift his omnipotent finger to stop her. Because at least in part he agrees with her.

And Illmater is a-ok with the whole thing, something that also makes sense. Or are you saying that even Illmater, the god of mercy, thinks the wall is all right? The wall made by a giant flaming evil asshole that horribly destroys all that didn't worship one of those gods, including those that had no idea they should be or were simply unable to. Like those from other planes these gods don't bother visiting or because they were just too young - both examples given by Kaelyn for reasons for going rogue.

There is a lot of lore behind the whole thing. I suggest you read up on it first. Even the reason why Kelemvor wears a mask and doesn't show his real face has a reason. Start with the novel Prince of Lies and continue with The Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. A lot of the background and motivation and reasons behind Kelemvor's actions are in there. And for the history between Mystra, Cyric and Kelemvor, read the Avatar trilogy.

His stated reasons in the game is sort of true, but is also at least a partial lie. He vowed never to go against the status quo again after things went south in The Crucible when he tried to "fix" an "injustice".

Ilmater, as a god who didn't ascend (unlike Kelemvor and Mystra), would be even more strict in his non-intervention policy because the non-ascended gods, having never been mortal, are basically nothing more than highly complex automatons. They cannot conceive of anything beyond their portfolio. This is made clear in Prince of Lies, when Oghma, god of knowledge, tried to look beyond his portfolio and couldn't. In fact, the attempt scared the bejeezus out of him so much he ran back to the safe space of his library-palace. Only Mystra and Cyric, at the time, could because they were both ascended mortals. Ilmater would not have allowed Kaelyn to continue her crusade because it would upset the status quo too much and being without the Wall is something that he would not have been able to fathom.

 

[Zero Credibility]

No thanks, even my nerdiness knows bounds and reading those fluff books for a setting that has since moved on (twice) is far beyond them. My opinion of the game and its plot is based on what is actually presented in the game. And in the game the crusader ending ends in an anticlimax that feels completely disconnected from the choices you made in the rest of the game.

 

[Cael]

No thanks, even my nerdiness knows bounds and reading those fluff books for a setting that has since moved on (twice) is far beyond them. My opinion of the game and its plot is based on what is actually presented in the game. And in the game the crusader ending ends in an anticlimax that feels completely disconnected from the choices you made in the rest of the game.

Then you are arguing from incomplete information, and basically going "This is my view, so there!" without regard to established lore.

As for the ending, I don't see what the PC could have done to continue the crusade. Remember the choices Kelemvor gave: Stay as one of his, or be free to leave and he will transport you wherever you want to go. The latter option, I take to be "anywhere but my domain, so you can't continue your mischief". And given that he very specifically said that he allowed this invasion only because he believes you should be given the right to restore your soul as it isn't your burden to bear, I would also think that the PC is smart enough to not push the matter. He didn't give you a third option.

Also, remember that at this point, two of the three generals of the crusade has left (or dead), never to return.

So, what could you have done to continue the crusade? Which option would you choose?

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well, my view is that the crusader ending sucks, both because after committing to it you just forget all about it and leave Kaelyn all on her own and because it takes you back to OC borefest instead. As to what I would prefer - stay with Kaelyn, she (if you kill a certain someone) gets an ending that I wouldn't mind helping her with. Kelemvor ignoring the crusade, Kaelyn's raids working either because he doesn't care or is unable to stop her, Illmatter giving support to Kaelyn - those are not my views, that's what happens in the game. You can argue that it shouldn't according to (often self-contradictory - according to the campaign book, demons definitely do raid the city for souls) lore, but it does.

 

[Cael]

Again, your choices as given by Kelemvor IN THE GAME is to get transported to a plane of your choice or stay with him guarding the wall. There is no third option where you get to walk two steps out the gates, turn and charge the wall.

Your call.

 

[Neanderthal]

Kelemvor that emo ponce fighter who got lucky in time of troubles? Fuck him.

I'd join Nameless in Grey Wastes, kicking fiend arse an raping succubi.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I'm talking about the ending slides man. You know, the ones that talk about how Kaelyn goes on alone to raid the city repeatedly, stealing soul at a time from the cruel embrace of the wall, and her name becomes a prayer on the lips of every faithless, even as her wings grow black. And then there are the PC slides, where you forget all about that and just go back to Neverwinter to the dwarf that likes to punch stuff, the tiefling that like to steal stuff, the creepy stalker elf druid, the lol-random gnome and the totaly-not-Dak'kon knockoff. Which of these would you prefer?

 

[Cael]

I'm talking about the ending slides man. You know, the ones that talk about how Kaelyn goes on alone to raid the city repeatedly, stealing soul at a time from the cruel embrace of the wall, and her name becomes a prayer on the lips of every faithless, even as her wings grow black. And then there are the PC slides, where you forget all about that and just go back to Neverwinter to the dwarf that likes to punch stuff, the tiefling that like to steal stuff, the creepy stalker elf druid, the lol-random gnome and the totaly-not-Dak'kon knockoff. Which of these would you prefer?

You can't go back to the City of the Dead. That is the point. There is nothing you can do. Do you think Kelemvor is going to let you come back through the portal? Really? He probably sealed that way into his domain. Remember, he LET you get as far as you did. After he sent you home, there is no reason for him to be that lenient any more. How are you going to get back to the City?

 

[Cael]

Kelemvor that emo ponce fighter who got lucky in time of troubles? Fuck him.

I'd join Nameless in Grey Wastes, kicking fiend arse an raping succubi.

Just remember to wear your Ring of Protection from Negative Energy. Or your little friend is going to become very little indeed...