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Arcanum: Replayed or Yes I am a sad case....

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Oh no, Arcanum did indeed suck. It had a large number of game-play issues with it that seriously undermined an otherwise solid premise. For most players, the terrible balance issues alone would drive people away from frustration. (Experienced characters getting low-level fights, while a new character getting the huge bears from hell, regularly...)

There was the complete utter lack of usefulness of most spells other than healing. The fact that most skill success rates were so poor that it made no sense to put points into them (guns being the most notorious example). There's the substantially heavy cheating for the combat AI...

And, of course, an atrocious editor along with a lame-brained 'module' control scheme.

A lot of good concepts in the game, but the powers that be just utterly failed to deliver on a package that was good enough for regular players to get into.
 

Transcendent One

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Nov 21, 2003
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Fortress of Regrets
There was the complete utter lack of usefulness of most spells other than healing.

HuH? Plenty of useful spells beyond healing. Aside from the harm spell branch which was really so overpowered that I wouldn't see how anyone in the right mind would consider it useless, there's summoning (also powerful) and of course the branches that lead to identify and teleport were not totally necessary but at least eliminated having to deal with some tedious aspects. Obviously you just didn't play around with the spell system enough, in which case why make comments on it I do not know.

And, of course, an atrocious editor along with a lame-brained 'module' control scheme.
Seeing as how your sig says you enjoyed NWN, I don't see how you'd see this as a flaw.
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
HuH? Plenty of useful spells beyond healing.

The weakness of the spells being how much mastery you have had to have to pull off even bad results. For all the points and effort, the sword was hands-down the best combat-option for any character.

As I said, a lot of great concepts at all levels, but the game needed three more months in a good QA department to handle some of these issues.

Seeing as how your sig says you enjoyed NWN, I don't see how you'd see this as a flaw.

Arcanum's editors were far, far, far worse than Neverwinter Nights. NWN wasn't exactly user-friendly, but there was a lot more support, a lot more options, and a lot more freedom with NWN - within the limits dictated by WOTC.
 

Transcendent One

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Nov 21, 2003
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Fortress of Regrets
Spellcasters do as much damage as a meleer and they do it from a distance. Which means no worries of getting hit, fatigue drained, armor damaged, etc. They pop on a quick shield of protection and bam they can cast up close. They summon a demon and bam there's your meleer-lite (definitely not as powerful as a PC meleer, but enough to cause damage to enemies) whacking away at enemies alongside you.

And Arcanum's editors, while not user friendly, allowed far more than NWN's. Please stop lying .
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
Spellcasters do as much damage as a meleer and they do it from a distance.

Once you get the skills. Yes. And most players would be annoyed, angered, and frustrated well before that point. Meanwhile, Joe Schmuck with a sword could - you know - actually be playing the game and enjoying it.

And Arcanum's editors, while not user friendly, allowed far more than NWN's. Please stop lying .

Lying? Wow, quick to delve into the cess-pool of social interactivity? And you guys wonder why Grognards don't get asked out to the prom...

Arcanum's editor was flexible, sure, but totally non-intuitive and buggy. A typical gamer could not get any use out of it because of how atrocious it was. That's why so few mods for Arcanum were available - it was just too cumbersome.
 

Transcendent One

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What skills? A decent damage dealer is available as low as the second (or maybe even first, been a while) spell in the tree. It ain't like it's the last spell in the sequence or that it's unclear as to why the spell would be useful. If you are planning to play a combat spellcaster, you take combat spells and defensive spells of course. Duh. If you can't figure that much out, tough. It's like that in any game.

And you guys wonder why Grognards don't get asked out to the prom...
I see you like making assumptions. Don't worry, many people do.
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
What skills?

It's been a bit, but I remember the stat system being overly difficult to perform tasks at low levels. (And then ramping up to everything being rediculously easy). Not an uncommon problem in RPG system design, but it's one that seriously hurt Arcanum's overall success. It was just too frustrating for many players.

Using a sword was many, many times easier than any other character concept, despite the game hype's claims to the contrary. You just weren't good enough, early on, to hold your own in other fields. (The harming spells, for instance, wouldn't do the raw damage that you NEEDED at that level, while at the same time sacrificing your ability to soak damage that you WILL be getting).

I see you like making assumptions. Don't worry, many people do.

Well, are you a Grognard, and did you get asked to the Prom?
 

Transcendent One

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The harming spells, for instance, wouldn't do the raw damage that you NEEDED at that leve

I am starting to wonder if you even played the game as a spellcaster. Harm always did the damage I needed it to do, at whatever level. Playing a spellcaster for me was obscenely easy simply because harm was so overpowered.
 

TFVanguard

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Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
Playing a spellcaster for me was obscenely easy simply because harm was so overpowered.

It's been ages, but I did hit a pretty hard wall in causing damage when I played my spellcasters. When I took the swordsman, I walked through most of the game. I can caveat that this may be more of a problem with the overall game balance.

Even if I give the caveat of Harm (which I'll just cede, as I don't have the game anymore to try again), you have to admit, there were a ton of options in character usage that really were underplayed. And the guns, so hyped up in the game world as being 'super weapons', were rediculously hard to use reliably.
 

Transcendent One

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Fortress of Regrets
Guns were, I don't disagree. Being a technologist I had to almost exclusively go with creating automatons for raw power. Everything else was just weak. But damn were those babies powerful. Blows any summoning a spellcaster can do out of the water.
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
Guns were, I don't disagree. Being a technologist I had to almost exclusively go with creating automatons for raw power. Everything else was just weak. But damn were those babies powerful. Blows any summoning a spellcaster can do out of the water.

Depends on your 'balance', doesn't it? Mecha/Mana? I know that was one of the concepts, but it really struck me more as an excuse for everything to fail. :)

Like I said, though, Arcanum had a lot of great concepts, but really needed three more months of strenuous testing - and someone with experience in interface design to work on the editor. ( A weakness in just about every editor-based game out there).

Die hard gamers could get into it, despite its serious flaws.. but the casual player just couldn't, and that was it's death knell.

I would love to see it remade, rebalanced, cleaned up, and open up the 'module' section so you can take characters from one adventure to another. Sadly, I seriously doubt that that's a profitable idea.
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
Transcendent One said:
Guns were, I don't disagree. Being a technologist I had to almost exclusively go with creating automatons for raw power. Everything else was just weak. But damn were those babies powerful. Blows any summoning a spellcaster can do out of the water.

Depends on your 'balance', doesn't it? Mecha/Mana? I know that was one of the concepts, but it really struck me more as an excuse for everything to fail. :)

Like I said, though, Arcanum had a lot of great concepts, but really needed three more months of strenuous testing - and someone with experience in interface design to work on the editor. ( A weakness in just about every editor-based game out there).

Die hard gamers could get into it, despite its serious flaws.. but the casual player just couldn't, and that was it's death knell.

I would love to see it remade, rebalanced, cleaned up, and open up the 'module' section so you can take characters from one adventure to another. Sadly, I seriously doubt that that's a profitable idea.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
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Location
Chicago
One of the choices inherent in any Arcanum character is whether to go it alone or collect followers. With followers, any character progression in the game is easy. Without followers, most are quite difficult at low levels.

Even melee fighting is damn difficult at the beginning - critical failures right and left - unless you've put more than one point into it.

I recently played through (for the first time) as a charismatic technologist gunslinger, and I found Firearms to be quite powerful by the mid-game. Obviously a gunslinger won't be a primary combat character, any more than you'd place an archer on the front lines in D&D, but she was kicking ass as a support character and doubled as the ideal party spokesperson (leaving aside the fact that you don't have a choice :)).

The real problem behind your issues with Arcanum's balance, I think, is that it tried to enable both solo and party-based play styles. Some magic users can solo, and melee characters can clearly solo, but other characters typically need at least a small party. I'm not convinced this means the game was ridiculous imbalanced, though, which seems to be your argument.
 

TFVanguard

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Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
suibhne said:
I'm not convinced this means the game was ridiculous imbalanced, though, which seems to be your argument.

No, random encounter difficulty was pretty wild. Advanced characters could often get non-challenges, whlie new characters could get some of the toughest critters in the game. There were definately balance issues in that regard - making it unapproachable for new players yet again, and a bit of a frustrating experience at times.
 

suibhne

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TFVanguard said:
suibhne said:
I'm not convinced this means the game was ridiculous imbalanced, though, which seems to be your argument.

No, random encounter difficulty was pretty wild. Advanced characters could often get non-challenges, whlie new characters could get some of the toughest critters in the game. There were definately balance issues in that regard - making it unapproachable for new players yet again, and a bit of a frustrating experience at times.

Yes, I'll definitely concede that point. I had to reload many times at the beginning due to uber random encounters, and I can't count how many Kite Berserkers I had to put down after I hit Level 40.
 

TFVanguard

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
151
suibhne said:
Yes, I'll definitely concede that point. I had to reload many times at the beginning due to uber random encounters, and I can't count how many Kite Berserkers I had to put down after I hit Level 40.

Yep, like I said, really good concepts in the game, and a lot of good in it - but with some serious and often fatal flaws. The game really needed three more months in QA, and a few design tweaks, but it didn't happen, and Aracanum is relegated to the obscure slot that it is, rather than standing out as a gaming great.
 

RGE

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Jul 18, 2004
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Karlstad, Sweden
I didn't have much problems with the balance in Arcanum. My first character was a half-orc melee warrior who used some magic for protection and increased agility. He bit it hard when he tried fighting with the gangs in Tarant though, and that was after levelling up to above 20 by killing void monsters at the portal. There just wasn't any way to avoid fatigue damage, so once he was knocked out, he was a goner. So I restarted with a charismatic elven gunslinger, and she relied on her followers at first, and during random encounters. In the midgame and afterwards she tried to keep everyone out of combat so that she alone could shoot everything down before it reached the group to cause damage. Those prepatch Looking-Glass Rifles were insanely powerful, and even after the patch they're probably the best option around, perhaps barring the Elephant Gun for stronger characters in closer encounters. I suppose it would've been nice to have be able to come out shooting from the very beginning, but I can live with that.

No, my problems with Arcanum are ugly avatars, awkward moving, too soothing music making me fall asleep too easily and the editor that is indeed too difficult for me to use, especially compared to the NWN Toolset. The dialogue was superb though, as was fact that all skills had their uses, even in situations that hadn't been specifically scripted to handle the skill. Arcanum felt more complete because of that.

When it comes to the actual topic for this thread, I must confess that I have always been something of a social recluse, but I don't consider myself having trouble tolerating others. Sure, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole world die off, leaving only ruins and rusting cars along desolate highways, but it's not as if I'm going to be the one to make it happen. When I play games the way I want to play the games I play as much as I can for as long as I can stay awake, and then I fall asleep in front of my computer. After a short or long nap I wake up, looks around and sees the screen that I left on, and then I resume playing the game. I don't think I'm ever so immersed that I start to think of my character in first person, but my mind is focused on the gameworld and I may have trouble paying attention to others. Still wouldn't call it addiction. More like revelling. Soaking in it. The thing that usually puts me to sleep is when I end up having to make a decision without having a good idea about what decision to make. My gaming then loses its momentum, and I end up lying down in my couch to think of a way to decide. And then it's usually lights out due to lack of sleep.

In the end I guess I made my choice a long time ago. Escaping reality through play is more fun than hanging with my fellow human beings. Unless they want to talk about games or about how our minds work. ;)
 

chrisbeddoes

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Oct 22, 2002
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RPG land
There is a mod that corrects balance issues and adds new content.


Look at what people saying.... for the latest edition ...

http://www.troikachronicles.com/modules ... 259238ebbb
Moekin
Peasant

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 15
Location: Byers, CO USA

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:03 am
Post subject:

Well, it’s Monday (weekends are too short). I did get to play with the new MOD this weekend. In a few words, I loved the mod. Chris did an excellent job in balancing this work of art. After playing this a little further than my last post, I can see that the DM is not a “cheat”. The adjustments that you can get from the DM are quite easily balanced out. There are quite a few new items out there for you to enjoy. I won't go too much into detail, so as not to spoil some of the surprises for you. But I will tell you this much, some of these new items adjust your stats, but be warned that they will either take up half of your inventory or weigh you down so much that you won’t be able to carry too many of them. I have yet to get far enough into this to get the Car (spent too much time playing the first part of the game with different characters).

In my opinion this MOD is a must for anyone playing Arcanum. It adds many new features and items but still keeps the game playable and fun. Like I said I tried out a few different type of characters (even a “hacked” character will have some problems) and all of them were fun and challenging. So, I think that everyone from the “power gamer” to the “purist” will enjoy this.

When I get the car I will post back here and give some more info on this MOD, but right now I am lovin it.


http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=48633
How to get a car in car Arcanum?
hi all

I've installed the polished car arcanum , and ive almost completed the whole game... but i still cant find the car? can anyone please tell me how to get the car?

and this mod is so cool!! especially for a technologiest , i am a ch person , and i got Athena , Magnus, and Jean as my Tech Team... They've learn all Techonlogies so i can make all technology Stuff now ... so cool!!
Last edited by warrax : 08-05-2004 at 08:11 PM.


Press the banner to get that mod.
 

Surlent

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
825
Back on topic.
Addiction here, like mentioned, is usually psychological with games. Sure there is adrenaline factor in some games, but since your body can form it naturally I don't see that as a huge problem. You can get it elsewhere, but it can also help to form some kind of addiction through it.
In the end however it's yourself who has to take your nose off from computer if you think your spending too much time in front it. And by doing that doesn't really cause any serious side effects.

Chemical addiction like with drugs doesn't sound that easy. Trainspotting (that movie) comes to mind. Comparing that kind of addiction to video games, makes the games look like hobby.

(This is going little far off but I'll try make the point clear...)
Also playing games usually involve only one person where watching TV can be done by several people on the same time. Because of this, games tend to be played alone and games which require several hours to complete can make the players cut some space between other people. From outside perspective one could see this shying away from the rest of community, which isn't generally accepted as healthy or very good action by other community members (whether close people or not). However video/PC games have become increasing popular in recent years and many people have learned to accept playing them as way to spend time.

Arcanum sure is good game though and playing it through requires time.
I myself like to finish games playing them repeatedly to the end because if I leave the save game for some time untouched, there's high chance I won't continue playing it or the game.
 

Astromarine

Erudite
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
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Location
Switzerland
I would love to play Chris' Arcanum mod, but I won't. I do not want to play Chris' features, I want to play a rebalanced original game. Since there are no separate mods for both options, I'm stuck with the original
 

Enderandrew

Novice
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
43
Location
Omaha, NE
That's why I liked the unofficial patches for Fallout. The fans fixed the flaws in the game, and created an uber-patch while keeping other mods and features seperate.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
Chris did you adjust the damage values for guns? Does the "gunfighter" starting bonus boost damage?

Most of Chris's changes are good, you can avoid the new areas and items. Telling your followers how to level up is helpful (can get good crafters on your team now). The anti-gravity diamonds and the players ability to place huge items in his quick slots are still ify.

While playing you'll just get hit with a ton of more poison attacks. That and a few more helpful exit zones will be mostly it.
 

chrisbeddoes

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Oct 22, 2002
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Location
RPG land
Human Shield said:
Chris did you adjust the damage values for guns? Does the "gunfighter" starting bonus boost damage?

Most of Chris's changes are good, you can avoid the new areas and items. Telling your followers how to level up is helpful (can get good crafters on your team now). The anti-gravity diamonds and the players ability to place huge items in his quick slots are still ify.

While playing you'll just get hit with a ton of more poison attacks. That and a few more helpful exit zones will be mostly it.

In guns most guns damage has increased.
see some examples here http://www.terra-arcanum.com/~chris/guns_changes.html
Instead of making elephant gun (you can buy it now by the random encounters traders)
you can make a modern droch warbringer)
http://www.terra-arcanum.com/~chris/tech_change.html

The recipy is hand cannon + black diamond.

The gunfighter bonus ( i call them special elite classes is this)

You gain +4 to perception +8/4 to guns and you start the game with a black diamond .You need the black diamond to make the top of the line gun the Warbringer.

Now in order to take one of the special elite classes you must not choose to take a bonus to life and fatigue.
As for poison attacts if you spend points to a certain stat poison stops being a problem.Alternatively there is some equipment that you can use.

As for balance for most classes
perception is the powergamers stat now (but you can change that)
perception is the most important stat for the direct damage mage , the melee and range fighter and the thrower.
beauty is the most important stat for a summoner.
dexterity is still an important stat for every class but now it is not the no 1 stat any more.
diplomat is still the no 1 stat for diplomats.

And the perks reward certain roleplaying and not powerplaying choices in stats .
Remember fallout where luck was useless but a luck 6 > would allow you to take a very powerful perk ?
That was the idea with the arcanum perks

http://www.terra-arcanum.com/~chris/bonus.html#start

And yes you can avoid 95 % of my new changes.

Not everything of course.

As an example virgil now will refuse to take from you any undidentified item.

He will respond with one of 7 random phrases

{1}{What a strange item !}
{2}{Would you care to identify that @pcname@ ?}{
{3}{Could this be dangerous ?}
{4}{Could a gypsy identify this ? }
{5}{This item could be hexed.}
{6}{Strange item.}
{7}{That item could be cursed.}


You will be unable to give him a unid item unless you identify it first.
 

chrisbeddoes

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
RPG land
As for the antigravity diamonds.

This deserves a post of its own.

To add realism i have modified the encuberance effect to also reduce magick power and your dodge skill.

The idea is that as a mage you cannot concetrate if you carry a ton.
And if you are a fighter carrying a ton reduces your ability to dodge to avoid attacts.

Of course some people hate realism and they hate all effects of encuberance.

They want to carry as much as they can without having any negative effect.
For those people i have iadded the choice at the start to take a number of antigravity diamonds.

So taking or not taking or choosing to take a number of antigravity diamonds from the dungeonmaster at the start is a rules choice between realism&purity// easiness&fun

You can be a purist and take none or choose the easy way and never suffer from encuberance again.
 

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