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When did C&C fail?

Mazisky

Magister
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
2,082
Location
Rome, IT
I played all 90's when i was a kid, the first was dune 2, then C&C, warcraft 2 and so...but the first red alert was the best imho: lot of narrative, awesome movies (for the time) and huge personality with characters and lot of different funny missions in the campaign. Also the russian dogs!!!
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,020
1) Tiberian Sun was nice
2) I don't see any mention of Dune or Red Alert.

That being said, I can safely say that I preferred both multiplayer and single player SC to Tiberian Sun.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,152
Blizzard would have failed just as hard as Westwood had they not hit the MMO goldmine at the perfect time. In some alternate universe Renegade (rightfully) became a hit and Westwood (unfortunately, but in good business sense) stopped making RTS games for a decade while Blizzard petered out along with the rest of the genre.

Can anyone name a successful big RTS developer that has stuck around? All I can think of is Relic. DoW and CoH definitely take after the C&C games a lot more than they do *crafts.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,662
Tiberian felt like the start of the end even when it came out and was remarkably average.

But I think the completely non-canon or anything Generals series is some of the best pure RTS games there are so what do I know.
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,216
Location
Space Hell
I don't see any mention of Dune or Red Alert.
Red Alert was a huge success but helped little in a long run. Red Alert 2 was the best, stopped trying to be serious and just had fun, plus great athmosphere and cinematics. Fleet was definitive and different. Yet its multiplayer was far from ideal. Main problem - no fog of war. That was a killer, even mods could not add it as it seems it was hardcoded. Single plaer campaigns was awesone but single player and skirmish could not keep game alive for years. Multiplayer could, proved by Blizzard. Red Alert 3 tried to fix it but thanks to EA lacked endurance and failed in a race against Blizzard.
But I think the completely non-canon or anything Generals series is some of the best pure RTS games there are so what do I know.
Generals was surprisingly good in multiplayer. But still suffered from lack of support and reliance on GameSpy.
 

adrix89

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
700
Location
Why are there so many of my country here?
Do you guys have amnesia or something?

C&C Generals and Zero Hour was brilliant and a great success.

The reason the rest failed was because the whole genre tapered off once consoles rose to prominence. And EA was too incompetent to turn things around.

The reason Starcraft 2 is such a success was because the Korean Starcraft E-Sports scene and Blizzard cornered the hyper-competitive RTS market.

MOBAs crushed whatever was left.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,258
I modded generals(alternate universe where Italo Balbo is still fighting alone ww2 in late '50) and I found the game was butchered by EA. Most developer notes are "this feature won't be included for lack of time"
Right now I remember
-Whole surrender feature (reason why flashbang mass kill people)
-stun bullet and darts for china and gla
-working bayonet
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
I think you should compare first C&C to Warcraft 1 and not 2.

No, Dune 2 is the comparison to Warcraft 1, with Dune 2 coming out on top. When Warcraft 2 was released it was considered the direct competitor to C&C.

Warcraft 2 became really popular over LAN faster than C&C btw, which is how Blizzard won that contest.
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
1)Gotta say, the main C&C went downhill since Tiberian Sun, really. Spreading thin on spin-offs was kinda questionable decision.
But Red Alert is where the money to keep Westwood afloat were, so it kinda payed off, despite numerous cancelled or failed titles.
2)Westerners stopped being into RTS in the mid 2000s due to cult of ignorance and general lack in variety (or progression). Westwood failed at diversifying their business.
 

80s Stallone

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
796
Location
The Bunker
Tiberian Sun was a big disappointment to most, people were actually sure it would eclipse StarCraft. But the game was unfinished and Westwood totally underestimated the importance of multiplayer, it was badly balanced. Many features they had promised were not included. Even the story felt pretty incomplete. Everyone in my neighbourhood played Red Alert, but they didn't care much for Tiberian Sun. Also, in 1999 people were obsessed with 3D, but all those 3D RTS games were actually very ugly when you are honest about it.

Dark Reign had some interesting ideas to improve C&C-style RTS but it was ugly and clunky.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
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Multiplayer focused RTS is the cancer that killed the genre, not the lack thereof.
And the only RTS to survive to 2018 are those with multiplayer focus. Age of Empires, Starcraft II, even such retarded vomit of Relic like CoHII.
The thing is that only MP focused higher budget RTS have been developed in many years, because of everyone trying to copy the success of SC2, etc.
The few that had something like a single player mode simply weren't very good. Even Blizzard dropped the ball with that nonsensical last SC2 campaign.

If you'd ask me about a good RTS game with a really good single player mode, I'd have to go back many many years.

Once developers realize that the SP market is actually bigger than the MP one - at least for strategy games, things will change.
However, who knows how long that will take. Just look at Petroglyph - basically publishing variants of the same game since years and failing again and again and again (or at least not getting much success). Always with that MP focus and terrible single player. You'd think they would get the memo, eventually, but at least so far they didn't.

Just taking a glimpse at something like They Are Billions (which is fun but honestly fairly limited as far as RTS gameplay goes) should be telling.
 
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Edija

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
670
Location
The Dead City
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So, since Steel Division 2 is coming, do you judge Eugene to be moderately successful with their series? Weren't they bought by Paradox totally, or was that HBS? If that is the case it will be DLCs upon DLCs... I enjoy Wargame/Steel Division tbh, but I mostly do 1vs1 MP. They really are not worth playing if you're into Sp...
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt
So, since Steel Division 2 is coming, do you judge Eugene to be moderately successful with their series?

Eugene tried several times to do traditional RTS (Act of War and the other one, what was the name Act of Aggression).

Both failed spectacularly despite being Very Good Games.

Make of that what you want.
 

Edija

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
670
Location
The Dead City
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So, since Steel Division 2 is coming, do you judge Eugene to be moderately successful with their series?

Eugene tried several times to do traditional RTS (Act of War and the other one, what was the name Act of Aggression).

Both failed spectacularly despite being Very Good Games.

Make of that what you want.

I know Act of War was an okay game, Act of Aggression looked pretty interesting but seemed rather shallow and unfinished after watching some real gameplay. I see there is a Reboot version on sale right now, something like a remaster? Anybody tried it out?
 

adrix89

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
700
Location
Why are there so many of my country here?
I do agree that the future of RTS is single player.
More specifically through some sort of procedurally generated campaigns.
Especially with the trend of engineering and logistics. Something like Factorio, From the Depths, Terratech and Tower Defense with an actual opponent you fight against.

If they could make a Earth 2150 like campaign with a broad overall goal that you are building towards through extracting resources over the world and building the right infrastructure and defense it could work.
A procedural Homeworld with some 4X mechanics can also work.
 

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