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Carbine Studios and WildStar shutting down

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
More refugees to join Obsidian?

https://kotaku.com/wildstar-developer-carbine-studios-shuts-down-1828862729

WildStar Developer Carbine Studios Shuts Down

x56p35vjto3wdrpwezo7.jpg

Wildstar (2014), was Carbine Studios’ sole game release.
Screenshot: Carbine Studios

Carbine Studios, the developer of the massively multiplayer online game WildStar, is shutting down, Kotaku has learned. Fifty people will lose their jobs in the process, according to a person briefed on the shutdown. The game will also come to a close.

Staff were informed of the closure at a meeting today, according to someone who was in the room, but it had been looming for a while after at least two of the studio’s game projects failed to gain traction with the studio’s parent company, Korean publisher NCSoft.

“Today, we are closing Carbine Studios and will begin the process of winding WildStar down to ultimately shutter the game,” NCSoft said in a statement. “WildStar players who have spent money within the game will be refunded purchases from July 1, 2018 until the payment system is shut off. We are also in the process of identifying the teams that will be doing the work to bring WildStar to a close. These decisions are very difficult to make and we are in the midst of shifting as many of our teammates as possible into other roles within the organization.”

Carbine was founded in 2005 by former members of the World of Warcraftteam at Blizzard Entertainment. In 2007, NCSoft purchased Carbine, and in 2011 the studio announced WildStar, a stylish MMORPG that would eventually release in June 2014. After launching with a monthly subscription, it went free-to-play a year later. In February 2016, Carbine laid off a number of staff, and the game had been quiet in recent months.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

What, you haven't heard of the studio that gave us Obsidian's Tim Cain? :troll:

Also wow:



Ex Dev on wildstar here. Watched the video and although it was quiet informative, I just wanted to chime in on some of the key factors on why this game was a huge flop.

I worked on the game for 5+ years and let me tell you.. This games was destined to fail wayyy before there was any issues with servers or not enough updates.

Development on this project was a nightmare. The real Development time frame was closer to 10/11 years. Coming onto the project at the 5 year mark I soon realized that the leads and big boys had no fucking clue what a good game was and they could not commit to any idea. Too many cooks in the kitchen that can't cook anything other than Mayo and Beef Jerky sandwiches... Look for the double meaning in that. It's there.

One of the most prevalent issues with the game that I noticed was bad direction from top down. People like Tim Cain specifically made way more problems than they were worth. Honestly the guy was a total dick. Awful to work with and almost nothing he "did" ended up in the game. His lack of leardership I would say was one of the reasons why the first 4-5 years of the game were almost completely thrown out. Literally...

Then you have an art director who couldn't keep his nose out of anything. His selfishness drove off many of the best artists in the company including cory loftis. Literally... Cory Loftis LEFT the game which is based off of his style almost entirely because of this guy. This same art director was also responsible for hijacking the story and overall vision of the game as well. Wondering why there wasn't more raids and dungeons? Because the ART DIRECTOR thought several ALREADY MADE LEVELS didn't fit the story anymore... So they threw them away... He also made calls on gameplay... Which... is a hole other nightmare.

The gameplay was once good... I would say around the 7 year mark. 1v1 combat was very fun at this point and each class felt very unique and fun. Unfortunately most of that was thrown away and replaced with alot of new stuff that was just NOT tested enough. I repeat... most of what launched in Wild star combat wise was BARELY tested. Stuff like Warplots was broken to shit from start to finish. The designers leading WarPlots were absolute lazy trash and would knowingly put in broken systems and call them done just to appease their bosses. The only reason that warplots was even REMOTELY playable on launch was because of some amazing talent on the 3D prop team. I am not joking.. Artists LEANRNED HOW TO SCRIPT TO FIX THIS CRAP.

Pvp in general was absolutely broken. I didn't even work on paper let alone work in a multi million dollar game. The idea of telegraphs is pretty straight forward and seems to just work for most cases in combat.... except in any fight larger that has more than two characters per team... Attack telegraphs drawing on the ground is very clear when you have a small amount of people fighting but in medium to large pvp fights ( pretty much every fight that matters) the entire ground becomes a multi colored disco dance floor. Casual to moderate gamers were like deer in headlights during the VERY FEW playtests that were had for larger pvp battles. SO MUCH FEEDBACK was given by the teams that participated in these tests and almost nothing was fixed about it.

The leadership was god awful. Proof of this was that most of the BEST things in the games that players loved the most such as Double Jump and Hoverboards were things that were never planned for or schedules by leads. Those were passion projects. Double Jump was made by an ARTIST. That artist got in trouble for making double jump and eventually fired for other reasons. Never got credit either. Hoverboards were snuck in by an animator... He got written up for secretly working on hoverboards in his freetime with other coworkers. The place was a prison of ideas and everyone was getting shanked for even THINKING that they WANTED to think of something to improve the game.

Oh did I mention mandatory Crunch? We would crunch for months at a time. Mandatory. I remember working from 10am to 3 am everynight 6 days a week for about 3 months straight. And I got a talking to once because I was 10 minutes late to work. ONCE. Because Jeremy Gafney saw me coming in late. Everyone working on this game was absolutely DONE with the BS and it shows. The love died way before this game launched. No one in the studio really wanted to play the game. And then we shifted to try to cater to the hardcore audience?! ( this was the version on launch. The hardcore not for pansies mmo) During a time where pretty much almost every successful game was being carried hard by more casual players.

I can go on but... I think you get the picture. These devs thought they were clever enough to ignore pretty much every other successful business model and all other mmorpgs to make this.. There you have it...
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Another controversial comment:

While Wildstar was still developing, a lot of players kept asking for harder, harder, really punishing game play. I was one of them. At the time, action combat was shifting from the "new big thing" to the "norm", and players who burned through GW2 content + Diablo III content (like myself) wanted a "challenge". Carbine actually listened. Test after test, things got harder and more difficult. Soon it was tuned to a level where even the first dungeon felt like raid difficulty, which finally satisfied the hardcore testers.

And then the game launched.

It was going really good at the beginning despite all the problems --- it was by all means, a very solid game. People complained about the normal things that any game launch would have, yet they kept playing. But a few weeks, a few months into the game, the atmosphere changed.

Many people who previously thought that they were "hardcore players" because they raided in WoW, were locked behind very difficult content where it was impossible to progress rather than "get good" --- no gearing upgrade/drops, no raid until no-death dungeon achievements. Players had to keep dying to the same dungeon (yes, first dungeon, most can't even get past the first boss without a highly coordinated group) without any progress. Patience started to die out, and more importantly players felt shitty about themselves, so they found other reasons to complain about (like minor crafting issues etc) and left ('cause nobody wants to admit that the game is too difficult for them, but at the same time they kinda felt it, so it was soul crushing).

So the hardcore and really good players should enjoy it plenty right? Wrong, raids required 20 people to have passed those 4 dungeons with gold/silver/bronze difficulty (yeah they kept reducing the difficulty, but it was too little too late). You just can't get enough people. The one who passed them first had to go back each night trying to get guildies through dungeons, some of these guildies never make it, some of them make it but then they are also in that boat having to try to get other guildies to pass. In some servers you can't even find 20 people across the entire server to form a raid group, nevermind within one single guild.

So why was it hard to crack the demise of Wildstar when everything was looking so good, EVEN by today's standard? Because nobody wanted to speak of the devil: the game was too difficult for the audience it tried to grab. It was designed for huge groups, having 20 man and 40 man raids, and 40 man war-plots (PvP). Yet it was also designed like Dark-Soul where one mistake and you're dead. Even very simple games become very difficult when you need to coordinate 20 people. Its humour and style attracted fun-liking people but its combat was hardcore and unforgiving. It knew exactly what it wanted to be, but it forgot to do a thorough market search to make sure that there are ENOUGH PEOPLE to pay for that niche.

Also, half of the hardcore players who finally stuck through to the raiding days also ended up leaving after a few months. When a game has only hardcore players left, suddenly a very good player feel mediocre at best. The atmosphere also shift to become more competitive and almost business-like. It may be difficult to wrap our minds around but, hardcore players actually need casual players there to feel good about themselves. And ego fuels a lot of us.

Sure, they started to tune down difficulty week by week after they realized that less than 1% even made it past the first boss after getting stuck on it for weeks. But it was too little too late. And the bigger problem? The difficulty of the game actually WOUNDED some players, I had a very hard time convincing friends back into the game (unlike other games that we play together), because although they don't say it, Wildstar didn't make them feel like "it was a shitty game" --- rather, "I'm a shitty player at that game". So actually, changing the contents and adding/fixing stuff didn't help at all, because most people weren't leaving because of the game, most people left because they had doubts of THEMSELVES through playing the game. Evidence: people complained about server, well server was fixed, but no one came back. They complained about crafting, well crafting was overhauled, still no one came back. The game was tuned to be easier sure, but who's gonna go back to a game knowing that it was something that you can only beat when it gets "dumbed down for you"? It was a lost cause, dissatisfied customers can still come back after fixes, but wounded customers don't.

Partly, the community was to blame. People always say, devs should listen to the players --- nope. Some players, sure. Not all players. Not even MOST players. Players don't know what we're talking about. We're no game design experts, neither are we psychologists. We can only tell what WE want, and what WE want reflect only the very small fraction of people who are like minded. Game-fanatics and hardcore players like myself instinctively assume that everyone would want to play like us --- and to be honest, sometimes it's just impossible for me to imagine how can someone find dodging red circles difficult. But some people DO find it difficult, that's just a FACT, and that fact can result in player frustration that builds up, builds up, builds up, until the player has to leave and the money is gone, eventually it will burn to my tail.

Wildstar was a lesson for all of us, I'm sure many hardcore Wildstar players knew this in our hearts.
 

Rahdulan

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The writing was on the wall since pretty much launch itself. It's a minor miracle Wildstar kept going for as long as it did after bombing spectacularly. I wonder what NCSoft is going to re-use those server blades for next.
 
Self-Ejected

unfairlight

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I knew it'd happen eventually. I spent 25 hours in the game and I did enjoy what little I played of it. Those behind crafting the world clearly loved it.
 

LizardWizard

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From kotaku i guess. See bold

Okay. I made this burner account because I need to correct the record here.

The stories passed around since the end of COH have been summed up as “Paragon Studios was so great and perfect until evil NCSoft closed them down.” And obviously telling this story would not be fun for my NDAs of the past...

And no, I’m not doing this out of love for NCSoft or any shit like that. We parted ways many many moons ago and we’re both happier for it. I just hate untruths being passed around because they let certain people keep skating around the industry causing the same shit over and over and being able to pin it on a nebulous entity to remove blame for their own actions.

Paragon Studios was shut down because they tried to pull a fast one on NCSoft. NCSoft was actually pretty happy with how COH was doing - they were never a huge hit, but they’d long since paid their dev costs and were a nice little money farm. They were happy enough with the brand that they even decided to move forward on an unannounced COH 2 project, and allocated funds to Paragon Studios for the development of a new COH property.

Yea, THAT is how committed NCSoft was to the brand.

So what happened?

Paragon Studios basically took the money, pretended to work on COH 2, but in actuality started building a completely unrelated new IP.

That’s right. NCSoft handed them a giant pile of money to make COH 2 and Paragon Studios, a studio literally created JUST to keep the COH IP going, said “Wait, no, let’s not do that. Let’s make some other shit nobody wants and not tell the publisher and presumably they will be completely understanding of it because we’ll show them a completely different prototype than what they asked for!”

NCSoft was not understanding.

See, this is what I learned when I worked for them - South Korean publishers are actually pretty hands off for the most part, as long as you give them reason to trust you. You hit your deadlines, you give them the product you promised, they’re actually pretty willing to put up with a lot.

Until you waste their money.

THEN the boot comes down.

The gap between the COH 2 debacle and the shutdown was less than a year from what I gathered talking to people in the know.

And now WildStar. NCSoft was pretty cool with us for a long time. They gave the company piles and piles of money and many years of extensions to get the game out. The totality of WildStar’s existence, from conception to release, was about a *decade*. A decade that NCSoft never saw a single return of investment on. So obviously... they had a lot of patience.

Carbine... was never a well managed studio. Ever. WildStar as you saw it was a completely different beast from what started development. It wasn’t even the same IP - Tim Cain, literally one of the creators of the original Fallout, used to be the creative lead and eventually he got pushed out of the studio. Which was a dumb idea because Carbine didn’t actually lock down their only IP when they did it and Tim owned all of it. So there was a huge freeze on production while they essentially had to do the game over from scratch because they didn’t own their own game!

And NCSoft actually let them when any sane publisher would have spotted the flaming shitshow brewing and cancelled the project entirely.

But okay. WildStar had its IP rebooted... then missed release date after release date after release date. The scope of the game was never realistic - we were supposed to ship with tons of extra zones, all of which got cut when they were well into production, because nobody actually knew what a pipeline was (oh but the higher ups would literally start screaming at the line designers for so much as laughing during work because obviously if we had time to laugh, we were wasting time that could have been used meeting these impossible deadlines.)

After yet another missed launch, NCSoft finally put the boot down and demanded more control over the project to actually make some money on this turd of an investment. Which meant there was finally an unmissable deadline that HAD to be hit. And then all hell broke loose.

Teams and personnel were constantly shuffled around at random without any real concern for if this was creating useable content. The economy team, which is, you know, the core of an MMO and literally the most important component to player retention and monetization, was a skeleton crew where staff were just flung at it when a producer didn’t like them but wouldn’t actually fire them. By the time someone went ‘Hey wait, isn’t the economy important?’ and reorganized the team, it was far too late to catch up on those systems... which included our end game content.

Hey, remember that memetic chart that went around showing all the obnoxious and pointlessly time consuming quests needed to actually unlock endgame raids? Guess what? That content was literally injected in at the very last minute because A) our raids weren’t actually completely done at launch and B) the creative director literally said we should add raid keys to artificially lengthen the game enough to force people to have to pay for a subscription past the free trial period in order to actually raid.

Oh there was shit from NCSoft, don’t get me wrong, but they’re not exactly the villains destroying the lives of saintly devs. Though they did try to push really hard on the art team to dress up all the female characters in the equivalent of lingerie. Given that they were already insanely over sexualized, this ended up being a tipping point and the artists tried to rebel. Believe it or not, the only reason the actual artists of the game got their way was because of Tumblr users kicking up a shitstorm over the obsessive pointless T&A. Those tumblr threads gave the artists enough momentum to at least keep the sexy ladies dressed in normal (but still revealing) clothing.

So with all this in mind... how did WildStar do?

They were already culling people before the end of the second month of release. Behind the scenes, they knew it was going to lose so much money that they were actually greatful so many people quit right after launch because it saved them money on personnel. But then people stopped quitting, so they started looking into how many people they could fire before someone at the state labor board got suspicious of them trying to duck out on the WARN Act. Given that they’d already gotten into legal trouble for illegally exempting employees from overtime pay, it’s kind of amazing they rolled the dice again anyway. But they did manage to hide the true state of the game until October 2014 when they finally had their first major layoff.

Coincidentally, most of that first wave were people that had at any point raised criticism of the company’s management.

I can’t speak to much to WildStar’s existence past their first huge layoff, because I was in that. I remember being shocked and surprised it stayed online as long as it did because it never, ever turned a profit - though almost all of the original leadership either quit or were fired, which is probably how it stabilized. But it still had a terrible launch that was actively on fire. We literally promised our players *monthly* content updates... then we couldn’t even hit the goal of *quartely* updates. Because, once again, nobody actually had a reasonable scope of what it took to actually make shippable content and how long that would actually take to be more meaningful than an occasional holiday event.

So really, you shouldn’t be angry at NCSoft for finally pulling the plug. My experience with them was that they were a tough but surprisingly forgiving master that overlooked an exceedingly troubled development and still put a lot of faith and money into a title they never saw an ROI on. WildStar had it’s four-year anniversary this June. Given that I assumed it wouldn’t even make it to a first year anniversary, that’s pretty darn impressive.

Also I learned that a few idiots running a game studio can basically screw over hundreds of talented game devs by performing utterly boneheaded decisions, but really, anyone who’s shipped more than one title can tell you that.

So now, you know... the whole story. From the mouth of an exChua on a burner account.

Father of Fallout pushed out by a bunch furry manbabies only to deliver this shit:

jKY3x0q.jpg
 
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Tigranes

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Messages
10,350
It's pretty hilarious though. That's like Feargus firing Josh Sawyer halfway to release, then realising all the POE assets belong to Sawyer not Obsidian, and having to launch with Ayothas the Missing God and the Curse of the Hollowbabies.
 

Latro

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From kotaku i guess. See bold

Carbine... was never a well managed studio. Ever. WildStar as you saw it was a completely different beast from what started development. It wasn’t even the same IP - Tim Cain, literally one of the creators of the original Fallout, used to be the creative lead and eventually he got pushed out of the studio. Which was a dumb idea because Carbine didn’t actually lock down their only IP when they did it and Tim owned all of it. So there was a huge freeze on production while they essentially had to do the game over from scratch because they didn’t own their own game!

Father of Fallout pushed out by a bunch furry manbabies only to deliver this shit:

jKY3x0q.jpg
that's a radically different story to what the youtube comments are saying though, it's a case of "being pushed out" vs. "tim cain is a con-man and a jerk". in the former tim cain is the victim, the latter he's one of the bad guys
 

lophiaspis

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Messages
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I don't know the first thing about this game, but if Cain really pimpslapped the MMO players, devs and publisher, that is :lol::lol: Almost as good as when Boyarsky ruined Diablo 3 for its tard fanbase by adding too much incline and C&C:mixedemotions:
 

abija

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May 21, 2011
Messages
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So the hardcore and really good players should enjoy it plenty right? Wrong, raids required 20 people to have passed those 4 dungeons with gold/silver/bronze difficulty (yeah they kept reducing the difficulty, but it was too little too late). You just can't get enough people. The one who passed them first had to go back each night trying to get guildies through dungeons, some of these guildies never make it, some of them make it but then they are also in that boat having to try to get other guildies to pass. In some servers you can't even find 20 people across the entire server to form a raid group, nevermind within one single guild.

This reminds me of SW:ToR (releasing with broken shit WoW fixed, or attempted to, couple of expansions ago). Just how retarded can you be as a dev that when you copy a game(in both cases WoW) to not evolve your design docs with the game you clone and not learn at least from their obvious mistakes. The pop drop when Blizzard listened to hardcores at start of TBC and the over the top response that followed should have been obvious to even the most casual observer, nevermind some designer tasked to copy 90% of the game.
 

Hyperion

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it's a case of "being pushed out" vs. "tim cain is a con-man and a jerk". in the former tim cain is the victim, the latter he's one of the bad guys
Has anyone ever said anything bad about Tim Cain before this? Besides maybe he's a little too passive?

Boyarsky tried to put C&C in Diablo 3, concluded that it didn't work, and had to scrap everything.
Heh, should have worked for Crate, because it turned out nicely in Grim Dawn.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Has anyone ever said anything bad about Tim Cain before this? Besides maybe he's a little too passive?
Roguey would be the one to ask, but this is the first time I've heard of a clear accusation against Cain.

Well, he was the game's design director and he left in the middle of its development.

At the time, Codex was maybe too busy celebrating his return to single player RPGs to think about it, but usually that happens for a reason.

From last year: https://www.reddit.com/r/gaymers/comments/6n3w47/fallout_creator_tim_cain_talks_about_being_gay_in/

"Design was lagging. 3 years into making [the Wildstar] engine they didn't have any classes, didn't have a setting, didn't have story. They just had ideas. Somebody came in from NCSoft [...] and fired the whole design department. [...] The Studio told me I was gonna do it. [...] Probably for last 3 years I was there I didn't really game develop [...] I kind of managed people, who were actually making games."

(https://youtu.be/vzThxv1t84I?t=32m13s)

"I ended up leaving Carbine before [Wildstar] shipped. [...] When I started at Interplay I was employee 40 [at Interplay]. When I left there were 600 employees. I started as as employee 12th at Carbine. And there were 200 people. It's kinda too big for me. I wanted to keep my hands in the development and I wasn't really doing that anymore."

(https://youtu.be/vzThxv1t84I?t=37m21s)
 

lophiaspis

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
379
"I got married [...] I changed my facebook status that night. My wikipedia page [...] was defaced. My occupation was changed from developer to homosexual. There were whole forums discussing whether or not my games were still worth playing. [...] And this is a great thing to read when you're on your honeymoon."

:what:
Was this the codex?
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014
I won't pretend not to feel any schadenfreude at this game shutting down, considering how much its fanboys shat on every other MMO before their Messiah was released.
:dance:
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
I won't pretend not to feel any schadenfreude at this game shutting down, considering how much its fanboys shat on every other MMO before their Messiah was released.
:dance:
That's basically every MMO's fanbase out there though.


Enter general chat
"AHAHA THIS GAME IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN WOW OH LOL WOW TARDS ARE SO BASE LOL"
oh congratulatory circlejerk okay see ya later LotRO/TES/Wildstar etc
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Good riddance, so much for their hardcore talk.
They had some good ideas and had a good opportunity but they failed on all fronts.
I really hope this marks the death of "Wow Killer" genre.
 
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