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You stop enjoying new RPGs around age 30+

best describes you

  • im 13 but I play f1. Is something wrong with me?

  • <30, old people should stop playing games

  • <30, already see less enjoyment with new titles

  • >30, only new games i enjoyed are AoD/Underrail

  • >30, play only oldies, they are cheaper

  • >30, new games are bad/worse, same as movies, and music, and my age is not related

  • >30, didnt enjoy DOS/witcher/dork souls

  • >30, drive harley, enjoy new titles


Results are only viewable after voting.

Shaewaroz

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He is right on that. You can use this knowledge to great effect. It also lifts the curtain on some assertions ITT.



OK, let's start with the negative.

All the examples Gilbert gives about experiences of misfortune apparently making a person happier (5:20 - 7:44) is complete garbage, as far as I'm concerned. Do anyone honestly believe a disgraced politician will answer honestly if a reporter asks him whether he is sad about his downfall? No, every single politician will try to downplay the fiasco that lead to their downfall and try to convince everyone that they're actually much better off being out of politics. Or a drummer that almost became a member of the most successful band that has ever existed? Yeah sure, I'm sure he's being honest about being much, much happier playing to drunkards in a dank pub reeking of vomit and urine. I'm sure Gilbert chose these examples to make his presentation entertaining for his audience, but these examples actually damage the credibility of his concept of synthetic happiness. He could surely have come up with examples that better illustrate how people can manufacture happiness in less than optimal environments.

Then to something more positive.

The experiment with amnesiac patients and paintings (11:02 - 13:46) is an interesting one. I've actually read about similar experiments before and am somewhat familiar with how this sort of behavior is explained by researchers who have studied such patients daily brain activities for decades. The following views come primarily from Charles Duhigg's book The Power of Habit. To make a really long story short, the researcher found out that a brain damaged patient that had lost him ability create new memories was able create unconscious behavioral patterns that sometimes function like memories. A brain damaged patient might not remember how to open his bedroom's door if asked to do so, but he might end up opening the door, walking to his kitchen, boiling himself a cup of coffee and sit with the coffee cup in front of a TV to watch a news program IF it has become a part of his daily, unconscious routine. If the patient was then asked to tell how he got to the kitchen and made coffee, he couldn't answer and was often baffled as a result.

This type of habit formation is not fully understood by researchers. The patient's preference for the "owned" painting might not have anything to do with "owning" at all. It's very difficult to say what the results in this research truly signify.

Then, to the most important question raised by the video. Why are a lottery winner and a paraplegic are equally happy? And is synthetic happiness just as preferable as natural happiness?

As suggested by Gilbert, the paraplegic synthesizes happiness. In other words, he learn ways of coping with his powerless state. In essence, the paraplegic is fooling himself to not feel bad about his powerless state. But does this really matter? After all, both the lottery winner and the paraplegic claim they’re equally happy? In my view, it does, for two reasons:

1) You cannot trust people's own statements about their experienced happiness. Especially a person, who has had to develop multiple coping mechanisms to deal with feelings of powerlessness and unfulfilled needs, cannot be completely honest when evaluating the state of their lives.

2) A false happiness is not supported by factual reality. This type of happiness is similar to a heroine addicts happiness, which only lasts as long as the illusion of happiness remains unbroken. A cripple has to accept the fact that he will never be able to satisfy many of the needs presented in Maslow’s Hierarchy. He may learn to be content in his powerless state, but it doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t choose to be healthy and powerful in a blink of an eye if given the chance.


As a side note, I don't think a lottery winner is a particularly good representative of a happy individual, as Gilbert perhaps tried to imply.
 

Shaewaroz

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I think I found the source of the confusion. You two talk about two different things. Those bolded parts are not measure of subjective happiness but of objective material elements like "financial well-being". The "typical" article about Finland talks exactly about that: "highly on income, healthy life expectancy, social support...". And the materials you linked are about those as well. They don't concentrate or even talk about declared subjective levels of happiness of people in any given populations but of objective material components of their life. So basically, richer countries are richer and people have access to higher quality services - that's not being contested here. The whole point is that, supposedly, from psychology stand point: material well being in absolute terms doesn't translate into subjective sense of happiness as long as minimum needs are met. What You linked doesn't address that point. If wealth made people happy, people in very poor countries would on average declare to be massively less happy than people in very wealthy countries but the materials you provided don't support that claim.

The intention of the studies made by UN and OECD is to quantify happiness through every significant measurable quality possible. The UN study also measured citizens views on freedom, trust and generosity. I'm not sure how you would improve these studies to better reflect actual subjective experience of happiness.

As I mentioned above, I believe that happiness amidst insecurity, poverty and constant struggle to survive is merely a coping mechanism - a false happiness if you will.

I might also add, that people understood this intuitively for millennia. Whole philosophical schools in Greco-Roman world were build around the dilemma that improving ones material status in absolute terms or acquiring power does not translate into more psychological well being for the individual. Having said that - acquiring wealth, "power", etc. is still beneficial for several other reasons but net gain in happiness for the individual isn't necessarily the end result.

I'd be very interested to hear more about what these schools of philosophy concluded about the nature of happiness.

Keep in mind the definition of power I've tried to emphasize on this thread - a being's ability to influence it's internal and external reality. It's very different from your typical pop-culture view of power.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Well, let's focus on just games right now. Does playing a game increase your sense of self-worth?
Overcoming a challenge always does (generaly speaking).

Does it build self-confidence that will let you find better mates or succeed in your work better?
Many games have taught me many concepts in relation to each other, phenomena of the world and life in general. This grants both confidence and applicability to a very wide spectrum. I'll admit the average woman still "baffles"(as in it's not that I don't understand, I refuse to understand/acknowledge in favor of a positive outlook) me, but so do the majority of men.

Does it increase the respect others feel towards you?
What others? Nothing universaly increases respect for anyone in anyone. My sales-shark colleague will never silence that little voice in the back of his head arguing that I'm a loser for spending time on games; Likewise, even though I might like the guy, there will always be that little voice arguing he's a pompous wastefull retard for driving a 150K car.
Sidenote: If a sales representative parks his Maserati in front of my company the first thing on my mind would be "I'm going to get fucked on this deal", amirite? :lol:
.

Does it help you create strong bonds with your family and loved ones?
In my case yes it did/does. My folks have been gamers since the centipede/pac-man/etc. days. Nestling on the couch to watch my mother play Zelda instead of a bedtime story (she would of course narate everything
love.png
) are still some of my fondest memories. Playing on my father's TIE-fighter account (all those cool medals :lol:), my sisters playing house using Halo co-op (after I cleared the whole map because enemies are obviously NOT FUN :argh:). Many, many fond memories. Just about a month ago I played some meh prison co-op thing on the XboxOne which I would never touch, but it was a great time with my dad having some drinks and shooting the shit.
Friends and games have always been a given for me as I'm sure they are for many people; not the online shit but table/couch/lan, although I do know people that have gotten serious friendships (GAY:smug:) out of playing games online.

Does it strengthen your moral character in a way that members of your society would respect you more?
In as far that society actually respects moral character, yes. Playing games has quite literaly been a part of my upbringing and I'm a pretty decent guy if I do say so myself; Don't lie, don't take shit, treat others as I would have them treat me, don't owe anyone anything.

6/10 made me type +M
 

Kaivokz

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I wonder if you aren't using "power" in two different ways. One meaning "the ability to obtain benefit" (which is neither good nor bad, for an ability can be expressed to obtain benefit or not) and the other "the benefits accrued from one's actions."

These two things get tangled up easily when power acquisition is discussed. I've tried to use term "power acquisition" to describe the acts of using power to influence one's internal and external reality in a way that accumulates power (or benefit). The power accrued from one's actions could perhaps be called "obtained power" or "power reserve". But you are right, I have used the terms quite ambiguously here. Further clarification of these concepts is required.
Hm, I see. I was interpreting "power acquisition" as one obtaining more potential power (or power reserve). Meaning primarily resources (money, house, friends, wife, security, etc.) or character (mental and bodily fortitude, strength, health, etc.). Using your power to influence the world is more like applied power, no? Potential power: the raw ability to influence your internal/external world. Applied power: the power you actually use to change your internal/external world. And then, of course, one must apply their power in the proper ways to obtain what is beneficial rather than squandering it. I am still a bit puzzled that you treat "power" and "benefit" as equivalent, though.

On a side note, I think the most fundamental "joy" comes from being a good person. A good person enjoys being honest, beneficent, compassionate, confident, et cetera. Provided they are not under severe and chronic duress, a virtuous person can enjoy being as they are (virtuous) even with very limited material resources. Jeff Beszos might be able to purchase his own island and completely define his external world to his liking, but even if he is wholly content, he isn't living a more worthwhile life than a middle-class programmer who spends his afternoons reading scifi and watching movies with his fiance.

This sounds like a perfectly good power acquisition strategy to me: a strong emphasis on control over one's internal reality and an adoption of a social persona of a virtuous person. One can win a lot of admiration and gain a lot of self-esteem by having such a strong character. I don't want to downplay the importance of what you have stated here - strifing to be a good person is indeed very important for a person's well-being. A person should always be able to look himself in a mirror, knowing that he has stayed true to him principles.

However, you should still be aware what you're in fact doing when you strife to be a "good person". If I understood your definition of a good person correctly, he is essentially choosing to conform to whatever moral and social norms your surrounding society deems desirable. He is trading individual power and freedom to obtain societal respect, the benefits of cooperation and a sense of belonging. I believe qualities like "good" and "virtuous" have different meanings in different societies, agreed? I actually agree that being altruistic and adopting a persona of a virtuous person can create a very powerful hiveish experience of joy. I'm not sure if I've mentioned Jonathan Haidt in this thread, but he often states that psychologically human beings are 90% chimp and 10 % bee. Most of the time we act selfishly, but on some special occasions we have the ability to sacrifice our own selfish interests for the greater good of a collective. For instance many war veterans told Haidt that their happiest moments in life have been during battle, when they have completely forgotten their individual desires, willing to sacrifice their lives for their brothers at arms. This sort of deep experience of belonging is a profound, beautiful experience, but it has also be used as a tool by oppressive governments to brainwash citizens to giving up their lives for their nation. I seem to be rather sidetracked here, but I merely wanted to give my interpretation on what a concept like a "good person" might entail. No one can become a virtuous person in a vacuum - it's always a set of characteristics deeply influenced by one's upbringing and societal norms.
In one sense a good person does conform to social norms, as cooperation with other people is one of the greatest ways you can secure your own benefit. I won't go too deeply into what I think a virtuous person is, but it is not altruistic.

Virtues, when embodied with wisdom, are habits that make human excellence more likely. Human excellence is partly social and partly based on facts about the type of creature we are. A person who lives in the "shites-in-drinking-water" clan will be farther from human excellence than a person who, other things roughly equal, lives in a tribe that does not shit in their drinking water. There are other more complicated examples, but I think you can get the idea. There are objective measures of human excellence that are not contingent on group values, and the virtuous person will have habits which make obtaining that excellence more likely. Virtuous societies will be full of people who strive toward their own individual excellence in the same way.

A virtuous person living in a group of liars, backstabbers and cheats will not behave altruistically as he will be frequently lied to, backstabbed and cheated—which are quite clearly not states conducive to human excellence. A virtuous person living in a group of honest and cooperative people will behave honestly and cooperatively but it is not because a virtuous person is blindly cooperative or altruistic. He is cooperative because he has good reason to think others will cooperate with him and everyone (including himself) will be better off for it. Only a fool is altruistic in a group that routinely abuses his generosity and leaves him worse off.

If you will indulge me, I will quote a few of my favorite passages from Spinoza's Ethics, Part IV:
Scholium to Proposition 18
There is nothing more advantageous to man than man. Men, I repeat, can wish for nothing more excellent for preserving their own being than that they should be in such harmony in all respects that their minds and bodies should compose, as it were, one mind and one body, and that all together should endeavor as best they can to preserve their own being, and that all together they should aim at the common advantage of all. From this it follows that men who are governed by reason, that is, men who aim at their own advantage under the guidance of reason, seek nothing for themselves that they would not desire for the rest of mankind; and so are just, faithful and honorable.

Proposition 20
The more every man endeavors and is able to seek his own advantage, that is, to preserve his own being, the more he is endowed with virtue. On the other hand, in so far as he neglects to preserve what is to his advantage, that is, his own being, to that extent he is weak.
Scholium
Therefore nobody, unless he is overcome by external causes contrary to his own nature, neglects to seek his own advantage, that is, to preserve his own being. Nobody, I repeat, refuses food or kills himself from the necessity of his own nature, but from the constraint of external causes.

Proposition 21
Nobody can desire to be happy, to do well and to live well without at the same time desiring to be, to do, and to live; that is, actually to exist.

Proposition 22
No virtue can be conceived as prior to this one, namely, the conatus to preserve oneself. [Conatus can be translated roughly as "striving for life" or "desire to continue existing."]
 
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Shaewaroz

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Hm, I see. I was interpreting "power acquisition" as one obtaining more potential power (or power reserve). Meaning primarily resources (money, house, friends, wife, security, etc.) or character (mental and bodily fortitude, strength, health, etc.). Using your power to influence the world is more like applied power, no? Potential power: the raw ability to influence your internal/external world. Applied power: the power you actually use to change your internal/external world. And then, of course, one must apply their power in the proper ways to obtain what is beneficial rather than squandering it.

You have a way with words man. This clarifies the concept of power a lot.

I am still a bit puzzled that you treat "power" and "benefit" as equivalent, though.

You're right to point this out - they're not exactly synonymous, although power acquisition is always beneficial. Having power reserves is always beneficial. As long as power is used in a proper fashion, like you pointed out, it will always create benefits for an individual. I would argue that what constitutes a wise use of power is something that in return generates more power reserves. This might be a point where we have a difference of an opinion and I would very much like to explore it further.

In one sense a good person does conform to social norms, as cooperation with other people is one of the greatest ways you can secure your own benefit. I won't go too deeply into what I think a virtuous person is, but it is not altruistic.

Virtues, when embodied with wisdom, are habits that make human excellence more likely. Human excellence is partly social and partly based on facts about the type of creature we are. A person who lives in the "shites-in-drinking-water" clan will be farther from human excellence than a person who, other things roughly equal, lives in a tribe that does not shit in their drinking water. There are other more complicated examples, but I think you can get the idea. There are objective measures of human excellence that are not contingent on group values, and the virtuous person will have habits which make obtaining that excellence more likely. Virtuous societies will be full of people who strive toward their own individual excellence in the same way.

A virtuous person living in a group of liars, backstabbers and cheats will not behave altruistically as he will be frequently lied to, backstabbed and cheated—which are quite clearly not states conducive to human excellence. A virtuous person living in a group of honest and cooperative people will behave honestly and cooperatively but it is not because a virtuous person is blindly cooperative or altruistic. He is cooperative because he has good reason to think others will cooperate with him and everyone (including himself) will be better off for it. Only a fool is altruistic in a group that routinely abuses his generosity and leaves him worse off.

If you will indulge me, I will quote a few of my favorite passages from Spinoza's Ethics, Part IV:
Scholium to Proposition 18
There is nothing more advantageous to man than man. Men, I repeat, can wish for nothing more excellent for preserving their own being than that they should be in such harmony in all respects that their minds and bodies should compose, as it were, one mind and one body, and that all together should endeavor as best they can to preserve their own being, and that all together they should aim at the common advantage of all. From this it follows that men who are governed by reason, that is, men who aim at their own advantage under the guidance of reason, seek nothing for themselves that they would not desire for the rest of mankind; are so are just, faithful and honorable.

Proposition 20
The more every man endeavors and is able to seek his own advantage, that is, to preserve his own being, the more he is endowed with virtue. On the other hand, in so far as he neglects to preserve what is to his advantage, that is, his own being, to that extent he is weak.
Scholium
Therefore nobody, unless he is overcome by external causes contrary to his own nature, neglects to seek his own advantage, that is, to preserve his own being. Nobody, I repeat, refuses food or kills himself from the necessity of his own nature, but from the constraint of external causes.

Proposition 21
Nobody can desire to be happy, to do well and to live well without at the same time desiring to be, to do, and to live; that is, actually to exist.

Proposition 22
No virtue can be conceived as prior to this one, namely, the conatus to preserve oneself. [Conatus can be translated roughly as "striving for life" or "desire to continue existing."]

I can see now why so many smart people are drawn to Spinoza. Everything you wrote here makes complete sense and my rationalistic side agrees with all of it thoroughly.

I'm sure what I'm about to write comes as something you have no doubt pondered yourself previously and I'd like to hear your thought process on it. To me it seems this ideal of a virtuous man doesn't seem entirely adoptable to contemporary reality. Spinoza has a very beautifully hopeful and optimistic view on the nature of men that was characteristic for the thinkers of the enlightenment period. If Spinoza'a view on the nature of human beings and nature in general was factually correct, I would have absolutely zero criticisms for his concept of a virtuous man. However the Darwinian revolution changed philosophy forever. There is no return to Spinoza's optimistic notions, to his view that people are fundamentally driven by reason. So in order for a virtuous man to live in a contemporary setting, he needs to adapt to the fact that people are merely a couple of steps further from being chimps. A virtuous man is very unlikely to find a collective of equally virtuous chimp 2.0s that will reciprocate his virtuous behavior in a mutually beneficial way. I don't claim it's impossible, but it's very unlikely.

I would argue that the logical EVOLUTION (pun intended) of Spinoza's virtuous man is something like a men who is driven by will to power - not necessarily in a Nietzschean way, but in a way we've discussed on this thread. A man who doesn't merely adapt to a virtuous commune but rather creates it into his own image. Someone who uses his power in a wise way to his own and his commune's benefit. Someone who uses power to surpass the devious nature of our feral ancestry.

What is your view on this? Where does a virtuous man get his virtues when human nature turned out to be something far more devious and ugly than what Spinoza believed?
 
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Doctor Sbaitso

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He is right on that. You can use this knowledge to great effect. It also lifts the curtain on some assertions ITT.



OK, let's start with the negative.

All the examples Gilbert gives about experiences of misfortune apparently making a person happier (5:20 - 7:44) is complete garbage, as far as I'm concerned. Do anyone honestly believe a disgraced politician will answer honestly if a reporter asks him whether he is sad about his downfall? No, every single politician will try to downplay the fiasco that lead to their downfall and try to convince everyone that they're actually much better off being out of politics. Or a drummer that almost became a member of the most successful band that has ever existed? Yeah sure, I'm sure he's being honest about being much, much happier playing to drunkards in a dank pub reeking of vomit and urine. I'm sure Gilbert chose these examples to make his presentation entertaining for his audience, but these examples actually damage the credibility of his concept of synthetic happiness. He could surely have come up with examples that better illustrate how people can manufacture happiness in less than optimal environments.

Then to something more positive.

The experiment with amnesiac patients and paintings (11:02 - 13:46) is an interesting one. I've actually read about similar experiments before and am somewhat familiar with how this sort of behavior is explained by researchers who have studied such patients daily brain activities for decades. The following views come primarily from Charles Duhigg's book The Power of Habit. To make a really long story short, the researcher found out that a brain damaged patient that had lost him ability create new memories was able create unconscious behavioral patterns that sometimes function like memories. A brain damaged patient might not remember how to open his bedroom's door if asked to do so, but he might end up opening the door, walking to his kitchen, boiling himself a cup of coffee and sit with the coffee cup in front of a TV to watch a news program IF it has become a part of his daily, unconscious routine. If the patient was then asked to tell how he got to the kitchen and made coffee, he couldn't answer and was often baffled as a result.

This type of habit formation is not fully understood by researchers. The patient's preference for the "owned" painting might not have anything to do with "owning" at all. It's very difficult to say what the results in this research truly signify.

Then, to the most important question raised by the video. Why are a lottery winner and a paraplegic are equally happy? And is synthetic happiness just as preferable as natural happiness?

As suggested by Gilbert, the paraplegic synthesizes happiness. In other words, he learn ways of coping with his powerless state. In essence, the paraplegic is fooling himself to not feel bad about his powerless state. But does this really matter? After all, both the lottery winner and the paraplegic claim they’re equally happy? In my view, it does, for two reasons:

1) You cannot trust people's own statements about their experienced happiness. Especially a person, who has had to develop multiple coping mechanisms to deal with feelings of powerlessness and unfulfilled needs, cannot be completely honest when evaluating the state of their lives.

2) A false happiness is not supported by factual reality. This type of happiness is similar to a heroine addicts happiness, which only lasts as long as the illusion of happiness remains unbroken. A cripple has to accept the fact that he will never be able to satisfy many of the needs presented in Maslow’s Hierarchy. He may learn to be content in his powerless state, but it doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t choose to be healthy and powerful in a blink of an eye if given the chance.


As a side note, I don't think a lottery winner is a particularly good representative of a happy individual, as Gilbert perhaps tried to imply.


Experiment on yourself then. I have and I have to say that it works in my experience.

In my professional life I am paid to influence and move people to adopt ideas for a common good, even changing detractors to evangelists on good days. Mediation, negotiation, business alignment etc. I have found that leveraging some of the ideas presented in the video has led to better satisfaction for all, particularly influenced subjects.
 

Shaewaroz

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Experiment on yourself then. I have and I have to say that it works in my experience.

In my professional life I am paid to influence and move people to adopt ideas for a common good, even changing detractors to evangelists on good days. Mediation, negotiation, business alignment etc. I have found that leveraging some of the ideas presented in the video has led to better satisfaction for all, particularly influenced subjects.

Can you specify what type of results are you talking about? Momentary feelings of relief and enjoyment or long-lasting experience of contentment? How have you used the concept of synthetic happiness in your profession? Have you told to your clients Gilbert's stories and encouraged them to simply be content in their lives since that's what their brains do automatically anyway? How do you monitor the results achieved through this method?
 

Kaivokz

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I am still a bit puzzled that you treat "power" and "benefit" as equivalent, though.

You're right to point this out - they're not exactly synonymous, although power acquisition is always beneficial. Having power reserves is always beneficial. As long as power is used in a proper fashion, like you pointed out, it will always create benefits for an individual. I would argue that what constitutes a wise use of power is something that in return generates more power reserves. This might be a point where we have a difference of an opinion and I would very much like to explore it further.

Let me spell out what I think our disagreement is.

You think self-improvement is an infinite concept and that power never stops improving our ability to affect our internal and external reality.
I think self-improvement is an unending process, but that power improves our ability to affect our internal and external reality with diminishing returns.

Let me explain. If Spinoza's is the sword that beheads the king of moral relativity, Aristotle's are the tools that till the soil afterward. Spinoza crafted a beautiful argument for the fundamental virtue that all other ethics can build from. Aristotle engaged in practical theorizing about individuals (particular virtues, rational thought, human excellence) and groups (forms of government, proper political engagement). One of Aristotle's tools was the Doctrine of the Mean: "every virtue is a state that lies between two vices, one of excess and the other of deficiency." To be a courageous person is to be the proper distance between a cowardly person (deficiency) and a reckless/impetuous person (excess). To be "properly cooperative" (I don't know a better word) you must be the proper distance between a scrooge (deficiency) and an altruistic fool (excess).

We must continually exert effort to keep ourselves in the fertile valley nestled between deficiency and excess. In that sense self-improvement is a continual and unending process that we engage in for our entire lives, analogous with eating healthy and working out.

Take your example of the business owner. He might be able to entertain any number of possibilities for enhancing his business and he must continually strive to be virtuous (act with integrity, courage, proper cooperation, etc.) in his business so that he makes the best product possible given his goals, fosters the proper relationships with his clients (and/or suppliers), and so on—but these things are means between vices. He must exert the proper amount of effort to act with integrity, and then no more—for any further and he strays into excess. After a certain point expending more energy is not useful. Outside of this analogy, money has diminishing utility as we acquire more of it. A certain amount lets us purchase the things we need (shelter, food, etc.) and a certain amount more allows us to be comfortable in the pursuit of our hobbies, but there is a point where more money does not help you acquire the things you need or can reasonably want, and so spending time acquiring that money is excessive. It is an example of a vice (greed).

In other words, we have to continually maintain the proper amount of power so that we can affect our internal and external reality to the extent that affecting it is useful to us.

The practical consequence of this is that someone who is vicious (cowardly, cruel, lacking a sense of justice, etc.) will have to spend a lot more time and effort moving themselves to the means between deficiency and excess. In your words, I think, they will have to dedicate a lot more of their time to the acquisition of power; their inner character is equivalent to that of a person in poverty who cannot afford for their own basic needs, let alone the things they want.

Aristotelian virtues are habits, or ways of being, not singular actions. To be a courageous person is to be naturally inclined to act courageously due to an internalized rule of behavior. It is to always be drifting toward the mean between vices. This frees a courageous person up to occupy their mind with other things, as they do not, in typical everyday circumstances, need to exert a large amount of effort to be courageous. Though, of course, there are more or less trying circumstances even for properly courageous people. In any case, once you are naturally inclined to act courageously, you ought to expend the effort required to maintain that (e.g. not to allow yourself to entertain cowardly desires or to act on those desires) and no more.

I can see now why so many smart people are drawn to Spinoza. Everything you wrote here makes complete sense and my rationalistic side agrees with all of it thoroughly.

I'm sure what I'm about to write comes as something you have no doubt pondered yourself previously and I'd like to hear your thought process on it. To me it seems this ideal of a virtuous man doesn't seem entirely adoptable to contemporary reality. Spinoza has a very beautifully hopeful and optimistic view on the nature of men that was characteristic for the thinkers of the enlightenment period. If Spinoza'a view on the nature of human beings and nature in general was factually correct, I would have absolutely zero criticisms for his concept of a virtuous man. However the Darwinian revolution changed philosophy forever. There is no return to Spinoza's optimistic notions, to his view that people are fundamentally driven by reason. So in order for a virtuous man to live in a contemporary setting, he needs to adapt to the fact that people are merely a couple of steps further from being chimps. A virtuous man is very unlikely to find a collective of equally virtuous chimp 2.0s that will reciprocate his virtuous behavior in a mutually beneficial way. I don't claim it's impossible, but it's very unlikely.

I would argue that the logical EVOLUTION (pun intended) of Spinoza's virtuous man is something like a men who is driven by will to power - not necessarily in a Nietzschean way, but in a way we've discussed on this thread. A man who doesn't merely adapt to a virtuous commune but rather creates it into his own image. Someone who uses his power in a wise way to his own and his commune's benefit. Someone who uses power to surpass the devious nature of our feral ancestry.

What is your view on this? Where does a virtuous man get his virtues when human nature turned out to be something far more devious and ugly than what Spinoza believed?

I do not think Spinoza's view of human nature is particularly beautiful. It is essentially egoism. We pursue our own advantage. That is all.

The beauty of Spinoza is how he argues for psychological and moral eogism and then marries it with reason to explore its contingencies. There are better and worse ways to pursue our own advantage. Ten reasonable people working together are going to be more powerful than one reasonable person working alone—a simple conclusion, but a beautiful argument. As for the odds of finding equally virtuous chimp 2.0's... I agree that forming a society of people all motivated by pursuing their own advantage as directed by reason is unlikely to happen during our lives or ever, but nevertheless that would be the ideal society. As far as forming groups of friends, or inculcating in your children the virtue to operate as a functional unit with other reasonable people, I do not find that so unlikely. There are enough virtuous people out there that you can form a group that supports each member's advantage.

On the idea you bring up, Spinoza himself writes:


Scholium to Proposition 36, IV
[...] Yet it is rarely the case that men live by the guidance of reason; their condition is such that they are generally disposed to envy and mutual dislike. Nevertheless they find solitary life scarcely endurable, so that for most people the definition 'man is a social animal' meets with strong approval. And the fact of the matter is that the social organization of man shows a balance of much more profit than loss. So let satirists deride as much as they like the doings of mankind, let theologians revile them, and let the misanthropists heap praise on the life of rude rusticity, despising men and admiring beasts. Men will still discover from experience that they can much more easily meet their needs by mutual help and can ward off ever-threatening perils only by joining forces, not to mention that it is a much more excellent thing and worthy of our knowledge to study the deeds of men than the deeds of beasts. [...]

Another interesting comment he makes in Scholium to Proposition 37, IV
[...] From this it is clear that the requirement to refrain from slaughtering beasts is founded on groundless superstition and womanish compassion rather than on sound reason. The principle of seeking our own advantage teaches us to be in close relationship with men, not with beasts or things whose nature is different from human nature, and that we have the same right over them as they over us. [...]

Proposition 46, IV
He who lives by the guidance of reason endeavors as far as he can to repay with love or nobility another's hatred, anger, contempt, etc. towards himself.
Proof
All emotions of hatred [for other humans] are bad (Cor.1 Pr.45), and thus he who lives by the guidance of reason will endeavor as far as he can not to be assailed by emotions of hatred (Pr.19,IV), and consequently (Pr.37,IV) he will also endeavor that another should not suffer these same emotions. [...]
Scholium
He who wishes to avenge injuries through reciprocal hatred lives a miserable life indeed. But he who strives to overcome hatred with love is surely fighting a happy and carefree battle. He resists several opponents as easily as one, and stands in least need of fortune's help. Those whom he conquers yield gladly, not through failure of strength but through its increase.


I have mentioned proposition 46 as it suggests the person who pursues his own advantage as reason dictates will use their own strength to change their society.
 
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Doctor Sbaitso

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Experiment on yourself then. I have and I have to say that it works in my experience.

In my professional life I am paid to influence and move people to adopt ideas for a common good, even changing detractors to evangelists on good days. Mediation, negotiation, business alignment etc. I have found that leveraging some of the ideas presented in the video has led to better satisfaction for all, particularly influenced subjects.

Can you specify what type of results are you talking about? Momentary feelings of relief and enjoyment or long-lasting experience of contentment? How have you used the concept of synthetic happiness in your profession? Have you told to your clients Gilbert's stories and encouraged them to simply be content in their lives since that's what their brains do automatically anyway? How do you monitor the results achieved through this method?

The more choice someon
Experiment on yourself then. I have and I have to say that it works in my experience.

In my professional life I am paid to influence and move people to adopt ideas for a common good, even changing detractors to evangelists on good days. Mediation, negotiation, business alignment etc. I have found that leveraging some of the ideas presented in the video has led to better satisfaction for all, particularly influenced subjects.

Can you specify what type of results are you talking about? Momentary feelings of relief and enjoyment or long-lasting experience of contentment? How have you used the concept of synthetic happiness in your profession? Have you told to your clients Gilbert's stories and encouraged them to simply be content in their lives since that's what their brains do automatically anyway? How do you monitor the results achieved through this method?

Overall satisfaction with process and outcomes. Definitely long lasting. I go through enough iterations to know that these help people reconcile, adapt, accept and appreciate outcomes over the long term:

Limit choice to 2 whenever possible.
Create the impression of a point of no return
Make sure choices reflect consideration if their objectives and perspective.
 
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DemonKing

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I think the issue for me is that I'm so much more time-limited than in the past. Back in the day I'd buy a new CRPG then play it every day religiously for a few hours until it was done. My favourite titles would be played 2-3 times. Nowdays with kids, work pressure, vastly more accessible alternative entertainment options (Netflix, You Tube, Tablet/smartphone games etc) there's no way I can dedicate that much time to playing games anymore. I don't think the games are necessarily any better or worse, it's just the chances of me finishing a title now are a hell of a lot less than when I was young and relatively carefree.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I think the issue for me is that I'm so much more time-limited than in the past. Back in the day I'd buy a new CRPG then play it every day religiously for a few hours until it was done. My favourite titles would be played 2-3 times. Nowdays with kids, work pressure, vastly more accessible alternative entertainment options (Netflix, You Tube, Tablet/smartphone games etc) there's no way at I can dedicate that much time to playing games anymore. I don't think the games are necessarily any better or worse, it's just the chances of me finishing a title now are a hell of a lot less than when I was young and relatively carefree.

Very much the opposite for me. When I was young I was extremely busy juggling school/college, work, friends, family to really have too much time for gaming beyond what happened communally with friends when we weren't trying our best to sample the very best of sex, drugs & rock'n'roll. Like they say, age mellows people & it also reduces your desire to be so friend/social life-orientated, the older you get the more of your closest family dies off, you no longer need to worry about homework & the only real impetus of your life is work, to which hometime provides a good few hours every day to fill with something.

I guess the difference is that you chose to have a wife & kids, which is the equivalent of permanently socialising & endless homework continuing to be a major part of your life. However, those kids will grow up quicker than you can blink & your wife will likely prefer it if you're not 'under her feet' for a few hours every day at some point & one day you'll be back to wondering what all those games you missed were & be back to normality. Nowadays its even possible to find a wife who enjoys similar games to yourself, for some people anyway.

Essentially, there is no 'back in the day' that is the same for everyone, merely different points in different peoples lives where people choose/get chosen to take on a lot of activities/burdens. The key is to remember that, for most, that segment of your life is the abnormal phase, not the normal & it has nothing to do with age & everything to do with your own specific life stream.
 

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Essentially, there is no 'back in the day' that is the same for everyone, merely different points in different peoples lives where people choose/get chosen to take on a lot of activities/burdens. The key is to remember that, for most, that segment of your life is the abnormal phase, not the normal & it has nothing to do with age & everything to do with your own specific life stream.
Absolutely.
I do get a bit tired of people complaining about how little time they have when it was their own damn choice.
Nobody forces you to get a 50+ hours/week job, nobody forces you to have children (well, usually :lol:), nobody forces you to spend 2 hours a day in a gym to become a chad (did I use that word right?), and especially nobody forces you to do all of that at once ...
 

DemonKing

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Essentially, there is no 'back in the day' that is the same for everyone, merely different points in different peoples lives where people choose/get chosen to take on a lot of activities/burdens. The key is to remember that, for most, that segment of your life is the abnormal phase, not the normal & it has nothing to do with age & everything to do with your own specific life stream.

Never said my circumstances were ubiquitous - just saying why my interaction with games these days is less a deep dive into particular titles and more a sampling of many. I'm fully intending to dive more fully back into them once I have more free time again.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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33 years old, play old titles and new ones. I think it's good to be well-rounded, playing classic games as well as modern ones. I still get excited for new games. This Cain/Boyarsky game already has me hyped, and heading back to Skyrim in VR makes me feel like a kid again. Do I think new games can be improved by using some fundamental designs of older ones? Definitely. But you can still enjoy them for what they are. Just be like an innocent kid when it comes to this stuff, you'll have way more fun.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

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You stopped enjoying games today because of how they've become. It's not limited purely to RPGs, but all games. If you're in your late 20s and beyond you likely were alive to remember when games were actually good and when a big release happened it left you feeling excited and satisfied at the conclusion.

When you see what gaming has become, you understandably dislike almost everything. Younger audiences don't understand your stance because they're either so young that they grew up in the midst of this shit and this is the standard for them or they just picked up gaming recently.

It's not that you hate RPGs or games today because you're some bitter fuckface, it's that you know how good games could be today but you know it won't ever reach that potential because too many people are too eager to accept the slop tossed on their plate.
 

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