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You stop enjoying new RPGs around age 30+

best describes you

  • im 13 but I play f1. Is something wrong with me?

  • <30, old people should stop playing games

  • <30, already see less enjoyment with new titles

  • >30, only new games i enjoyed are AoD/Underrail

  • >30, play only oldies, they are cheaper

  • >30, new games are bad/worse, same as movies, and music, and my age is not related

  • >30, didnt enjoy DOS/witcher/dork souls

  • >30, drive harley, enjoy new titles


Results are only viewable after voting.

Master

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A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth. This knowledge has already been demonstrated in research and analysis
Very amusing.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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He is right on that. You can use this knowledge to great effect. It also lifts the curtain on some assertions ITT.

 

Master

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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
From my own experiences this struggle to constantly self-improve, doing better, being better than others made me depressive as hell. Doing some self reflecting and accepting what you are and where you are in life - being content with the current situation has made my life much more enjoyable. Not saying you can't improve your life of course - but all work and no play makes for a dull stressful life. In my opinion anyway.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.

What would you have it prove? Your response makes no sense.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Well, let's focus on just games right now. Does playing a game increase your sense of self-worth? Does is built self-confidence that will let you find better mates or succeed in your work better? Does it increase the respect others feel towards you? Does it help you create strong bonds with your family and loved ones? Does it strengthen your moral character in a way that members of your society would respect you more?
Yes.
 

Master

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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.

What would you have it prove? Your response makes no sense.
Huh? In connection with
A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth.
How does the video prove this?
I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?
 

Kaivokz

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I wonder, Shaewaroz, if your definition of power is over-inclusive. The intuition in this thread is that the man who spends his whole life pursuing power is likely to end up depressed. People who have "everything"--six figure salary, hot wife, attractive kids, big house, nice cars, enough money and political clout to secure their advantage for the foreseeable future--are often not happy. To the extent that they commit suicide, or in the extreme burn down everything they own, kill their family, and then commit suicide (this is a real example that happened in the USA).

I have the feeling that you would say those people do not have real power. They had a great deal of resource, but lacked strength: the courage and tenacity to face their mental demons and arise victorious. Meaning an anti-social person in poverty can technically have more "power" than a millionaire with vast resources, despite never seeking a better job or acquiring a hot wife, if they had the willpower and disposition to enjoy life.

I personally do not want to live in poverty and that is why I have pursued a career which affords me and my loved ones certain luxuries. But, without a massive shift in my reality, I will not commit suicide. Do you know why? It's not my money, nor my social status, nor even my friendships (though those, I agree with you, massively boost our ability to obtain our own advantage and make life better).

It is because I enjoy life. I enjoy philosophical debate (even with myself), solving differential equations, and puzzling over number theory. I enjoy playing piano. I enjoy playing video games and reading books and having sex and eating delicious food. If those things were taken away I would find other things to enjoy. It's unclear whether you would view this as accumulating power if they lead a person to choose life rather than death, but if your definition of power is, essentially, anything that (actually) benefits a person, then it is an impotent concept. I wonder if you aren't using "power" in two different ways. One meaning "the ability to obtain benefit" (which is neither good nor bad, for an ability can be expressed to obtain benefit or not) and the other "the benefits accrued from one's actions."

On a side note, I think the most fundamental "joy" comes from being a good person. A good person enjoys being honest, beneficent, compassionate, confident, et cetera. Provided they are not under severe and chronic duress, a virtuous person can enjoy being as they are (virtuous) even with very limited material resources. Jeff Beszos might be able to purchase his own island and completely define his external world to his liking, but even if he is wholly content, he isn't living a more worthwhile life than a middle-class programmer who spends his afternoons reading scifi and watching movies with his fiance.

As a side note, there has been a lot of studies about children's gaming habits and considerable amount of them conclude that gaming games often don't stimulate young brains in the right way to strengthen healthy mental development. They often also conclude that impatience and general lack of self-discipline and self-regulatory skills often result from excessive gaming. These are all very undesirable results with regards to power acquisition as well as a child's healthy development.

Such topics need to be treated with more nuance. Surely the "gaming habits" of most children today are swiping mindlessly on an ipad while their (probably single) parent engages in various deviant behaviors, or screaming obscenities in whatever bland reiteration call of duty is up to now. That has no bearing on a teenager playing Planescape: Torment and being exposed to new ideas through the telling of TNO's story or a young lad playing chess with his father (or Risk or some modern tactical/strategic board game).
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Such topics need to be treated with more nuance. Surely the "gaming habits" of most children today are swiping mindlessly on an ipad while their (probably single) parent engages in various deviant behaviors, or screaming obscenities in whatever bland reiteration call of duty is up to now. That has no bearing on a teenager playing Planescape: Torment and being exposed to new ideas through the telling of TNO's story or a young lad playing chess with his father (or Risk or some modern tactical/strategic board game).
women were a mistake
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.

What would you have it prove? Your response makes no sense.
Huh? In connection with
A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth.
How does the video prove this?
I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?

Did you watch the video? I have observed this in my own life and in the world around me. Awareness of oneself and how the brain works in this manner allows for perspective most people go through life without realizing.
 

Shaewaroz

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A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth. This knowledge has already been demonstrated in research and analysis of various levels of personal satisfaction, levels of stress, optimism or overall perspective.

Let's start by dispelling this myth.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111
https://s3.amazonaws.com/happiness-report/2018/WHR_web.pdf

There are multiple international organizations that release extensive studies on the happiness of people all around the world. For instance the United Nations and OECD release their annual reports about the quality of life around the world. Based on them every single respectable newspaper all around the world releases these results and announces which country has the happiest citizens - typically it's one of the Northern European nations. These reports are based on a combined score based on citizens financial well-being, sense of security, various social and societal variables, individual rights, how well people feel they can obtain their life goals etc. There's also the annual World Happiness Report, which I linked above. Here's an example of what a typical news article about the topic looks like:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/14/finland-happiest-country-world-un-report

It's just an old myth that people in third world countries are happier than people in wealthy Western nations.

I'd like to see examples of the researches you base your arguments around.


depos.jpg


Happiest people in the world?
 
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Master

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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.

What would you have it prove? Your response makes no sense.
Huh? In connection with
A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth.
How does the video prove this?
I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?

Did you watch the video? I have observed this in my own life and in the world around me. Awareness of oneself and how the brain works in this manner allows for perspective most people go through life without realizing.
I watched half of it and couldnt endure further. I read about it:

"Dan Gilbert, author of Stumbling on Happiness, teaches us that synthetic happiness is just as real and enduring as real happiness. Dan also teaches us that our longings and worries are overblown because we have the capacity to create happiness within ourselves rather than depend on experiences."

So, we can just create all those great RPGs that we need, in our heads. Great!

What is "synthetic" happiness? This is the first time i hear about this concept. It says


"Synthetic Happiness
. Synthetic Happiness is what we make when we don’t get what we want." (Huh..? So its basically...nothing??)

"Natural happiness . Natural happiness is what we get when we get what we want." (seems about right)

"Synthetic Happiness is as real as natural happiness. Synthetic Happiness is every bit as real and enduring as the kind of happiness you get when you get exactly what you were aiming for." ????

"Our longing and worries are overblown. Our longings and worries are overblown because we can manufacture our own happiness from within."


Sorry but i am not convinced by any of this. It seems like some kind of "dont worry, be happy", self help, life coaching thing.
 

Shaewaroz

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From my own experiences this struggle to constantly self-improve, doing better, being better than others made me depressive as hell. Doing some self reflecting and accepting what you are and where you are in life - being content with the current situation has made my life much more enjoyable. Not saying you can't improve your life of course - but all work and no play makes for a dull stressful life. In my opinion anyway.

I can empathize with this point of view. I see depression as failure of gaining control over one's internal reality. People burn out and fall to depression because they don't take care of their mental well-being while working towards improving their external circumstances. For me, mental control and well-being is the foundation of power acquisition.

Contentment is a state of being that can be either justified or delusional. If one is in control over his internal and external reality, contentment is a natural byproduct of this state of being. However being content while being unemployed, without anyone to love and with no executable life goals is not a healthy way of dealing with one's unfulfilled desires - it's only one's way of fooling himself. It's a survival mechanism that helps us deal with the disappointments that we face when we don't have the power to enact desirable changes to our internal or external reality. In other words, we do mental gymnastics to avoid feeling terrible about not being able to acquire the things we need in order to be happy.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
From my own experiences this struggle to constantly self-improve, doing better, being better than others made me depressive as hell. Doing some self reflecting and accepting what you are and where you are in life - being content with the current situation has made my life much more enjoyable. Not saying you can't improve your life of course - but all work and no play makes for a dull stressful life. In my opinion anyway.

I can empathize with this point of view. I see depression as failure of gaining control over one's internal reality. People burn out and fall to depression because they don't take care of their mental well-being while working towards improving their external circumstances. For me, mental control and well-being is the foundation of power acquisition.

Contentment is a state of being that can be either justified or delusional. If one is in control over his internal and external reality, contentment is a natural byproduct of this state of being. However being content while being unemployed, without anyone to love and with no executable life goals is not a healthy way of dealing with one's desires - it's only one's way of fooling himself. It's a survival mechanism that helps us deal with the disappointments that we face when we don't have the power to enact desirable changes to our internal or external reality. In other words, we do mental gymnastics to avoid feeling terrible about not being able to acquire the things we need in order to be happy.
And if you don't feel happy about being a loser you can always take drugs.
 

Networm

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Back on the topic, I still found some unpopular (but with good content) games to enjoy. It more has to do with taste than with age. Once you had developed your preference in something, it s hard to force you to try and like whatever AAA new shi et.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Except, the video doesn't actually prove anything. Is this supposed to be science? Stuff like this is peddled in your average daily newspapers or women's magazines.

What would you have it prove? Your response makes no sense.
Huh? In connection with
A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth.
How does the video prove this?
I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?

Did you watch the video? I have observed this in my own life and in the world around me. Awareness of oneself and how the brain works in this manner allows for perspective most people go through life without realizing.
I watched half of it and couldnt endure further. I read about it:

"Dan Gilbert, author of Stumbling on Happiness, teaches us that synthetic happiness is just as real and enduring as real happiness. Dan also teaches us that our longings and worries are overblown because we have the capacity to create happiness within ourselves rather than depend on experiences."

So, we can just create all those great RPGs that we need, in our heads. Great!

What is "synthetic" happiness? This is the first time i hear about this concept. It says


"Synthetic Happiness
. Synthetic Happiness is what we make when we don’t get what we want." (Huh..? So its basically...nothing??)

"Natural happiness . Natural happiness is what we get when we get what we want." (seems about right)

"Synthetic Happiness is as real as natural happiness. Synthetic Happiness is every bit as real and enduring as the kind of happiness you get when you get exactly what you were aiming for." ????

"Our longing and worries are overblown. Our longings and worries are overblown because we can manufacture our own happiness from within."


Sorry but i am not convinced by any of this. It seems like some kind of "dont worry, be happy", self help, life coaching thing.

Your simulator is malfunctioning and you couldn't be bothered to learn why when presented with information. OK, enjoy the darkness.
 

Drowed

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I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?

Hey, believe in whatever you want. Reality often defies common sense and superficial interpretations of it. But believe in whatever makes you happy, as I'm sure you already do, like most people.


EDIT:
I'd like to see examples of the researches you base your arguments around.

I could, but I don't see the point. You are taking as reference press media reports instead of published scientific research.
(And when I spoke of third world countries, I was referring to Latin America and places with similar HDI, not to refugees from Africa/Middle East, where obviously the minimum stability requirements aren't met. But I believed people would be smart enough to know this without my needing to mention it. My mistake.)

Through your speech, it's easy to see just how involved you are in your own worldview. I don't think you're dumb - quite the contrary, you seem to me to be an extremely intelligent and cultured person. The thing is, in many instances, smarter people are more vulnerable thinking errors because they are also extremely competent in rationalizing their points of view.

So, you do you. My answer isn't really to you (because I am fully convinced that your position is unchanging) and more so for other people who might happen to be here reading, because they might get curious to about the matter and decide to read more about it on their own.

You may consider that you have "won this argument" if you like.
 
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Shaewaroz

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I am not sure how is it even possible to formulate a sentence like that, let alone try to prove it. People who want something but cant have it, are just as happy(or unhappy??) as the people who can have what they want. What?

Hey, believe in whatever you want. Reality often defies common sense and superficial interpretations of it. But believe in whatever makes you happy, as I'm sure you already do, like most people.


EDIT:
I'd like to see examples of the researches you base your arguments around.

I could, but I don't see the point. You are taking as reference press media reports instead of published scientific research.

You may consider that you have "won this argument" if you like.

The UN and OECD are not "media reports".

I'm very conscious and careful not to go down the road of confirmation bias while discussing an important topic like this one. I'm genuinely willing to change my mind on this topic. That's why I often brofist people who disagree with my position on this thread. If that's not a sign of genuine appreciation of a plurality of views then I don't know what is! :lol:
 
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Serus

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A dweller from a humbler neighborhood from a third-world country isn't, on average, happier or unhappier than the average of the 10% of the most powerful men on the face of the earth. This knowledge has already been demonstrated in research and analysis of various levels of personal satisfaction, levels of stress, optimism or overall perspective.

Let's start by dispelling this myth.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111
https://s3.amazonaws.com/happiness-report/2018/WHR_web.pdf

There are multiple international organizations that release extensive studies on the happiness of people all around the world. For instance the United Nations and OECD release their annual reports about the quality of life around the world. Based on them every single respectable newspaper all around the world releases these results and announces which country has the happiest citizens - typically it's one of the Northern European nations. These reports are based on a combined score based on citizens financial well-being, sense of security, various social and societal variables, individual rights, how well people feel they can obtain their life goals etc. There's also the annual World Happiness Report, which I linked above. Here's an example of what a typical news article about the topic looks like:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/14/finland-happiest-country-world-un-report

It's just an old myth that people in third world countries are happier than people in wealthy Western nations.

I'd like to see examples of the researches you base your arguments around.


depos.jpg


Happiest people in the world?
I think I found the source of the confusion. You two talk about two different things. Those bolded parts are not measure of subjective happiness but of objective material elements like "financial well-being". The "typical" article about Finland talks exactly about that: "highly on income, healthy life expectancy, social support...". And the materials you linked are about those as well. They don't concentrate or even talk about declared subjective levels of happiness of people in any given populations but of objective material components of their life. So basically, richer countries are richer and people have access to higher quality services - that's not being contested here. The whole point is that, supposedly, from psychology stand point: material well being in absolute terms doesn't translate into subjective sense of happiness as long as minimum needs are met. What You linked doesn't address that point. If wealth made people happy, people in very poor countries would on average declare to be massively less happy than people in very wealthy countries but the materials you provided don't support that claim.

The last image is just a strawman on your part. No one claimed that people fleeing from actual wars (as in - the real refugees, people who lost almost everything) aren't less happy than other people.

I might also add, that people understood this intuitively for millennia. Whole philosophical schools in Greco-Roman world were build around the dilemma that improving ones material status in absolute terms or acquiring power does not translate into more psychological well being for the individual.
Having said that - acquiring wealth, "power", etc. is still beneficial for several other reasons but net gain in happiness for the individual isn't necessarily the end result.
 
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Max Damage

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It all depends on RPG, I say. I didn't enjoy plenty of RPGs when the were new, and I still got (less than) 4 years before 30. I also don't know of any genre of video games, where every single new game is enjoyable by everyone. Unless my eating and exercise habits turn to worse at the age of 30, I don't see this changing.
 

Kaivokz

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Serus the OECD measures “life satisfaction” which was also higher in small European countries, but supposedly the average life satisfaction in Israel is 4.5 times higher than Hungary. Looks like they were self-reports. "Surveys, in particular, are used to measure life satisfaction and happiness. [...] When asked to rate their general satisfaction with life on a scale from 0 to 10, people on average across the OECD gave it a 6.5." I can't find info on the composition or size of the sample groups from each country. There's not enough info to make any reasonable inferences from the data they provide.

But self reports of "life satisfaction" are unreliable for many reasons anyway. There are false-positives and false-negatives. Some people who eventually commit suicide will say, when asked, "I'm really depressed, man" and others will say "Everything is fine!" Some people who are not so unhappy with life are melodramatic and say "I'm really depressed, man" because last night they broke their toaster. In the extreme, a cult about to commit mass ritual suicide will say "Everything is wonderful!" when many of them are really depressed, man, and trying to escape their problems. Even when you get rid of the false answers, there is a difference between habits that give clean satisfaction and habits that give contaminated satisfaction. Unsatisfactory outcomes of clean satisfaction have no necessary causal link to the habit; there are many ways to be kind or read books or play games (by exhibiting wisdom in your actions) without receiving eventual dissatisfaction. There is no way to use lots of cocaine or be a caustic asshole without experiencing the eventual dissatisfaction (or death, which good habits will avoid at all costs).
 

Shaewaroz

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I wonder, Shaewaroz, if your definition of power is over-inclusive. The intuition in this thread is that the man who spends his whole life pursuing power is likely to end up depressed. People who have "everything"--six figure salary, hot wife, attractive kids, big house, nice cars, enough money and political clout to secure their advantage for the foreseeable future--are often not happy. To the extent that they commit suicide, or in the extreme burn down everything they own, kill their family, and then commit suicide (this is a real example that happened in the USA).

I have the feeling that you would say those people do not have real power. They had a great deal of resource, but lacked strength: the courage and tenacity to face their mental demons and arise victorious. Meaning an anti-social person in poverty can technically have more "power" than a millionaire with vast resources, despite never seeking a better job or acquiring a hot wife, if they had the willpower and disposition to enjoy life.

I think I already addressed this in another reply, but it's an essential point of disagreement and should be explored thoroughly. The power you describe here - huge salary, hot wife etc - are all external expressions of power. A person who uses all his time trying to merely influence their external reality and completely neglect their mental health and self-control will end up either burned out or in a state of profound dissatisfaction, as you pointed out. Prosperity and wealth isn't really the cause of this type of dissatisfaction - it's the bloated emphasis on material possessions at the cost of mental health and well-being. There's no reason a person cannot have all these material possessions (and other forms of control over external reality) and also have a well-balanced psyche.

I think many people following and taking part in this conversation still don't fully understand my definition of power. It has very little to do with material possessions or the ability to force your will over others. I believe this is the reason why many people here feel that power acquisition is a) a laborious chore and b) will not make a person happy. I fully agree that material possessions alone will not make a person happy. I argue that having control over one's internal and external reality makes a person happy.

I personally do not want to live in poverty and that is why I have pursued a career which affords me and my loved ones certain luxuries. But, without a massive shift in my reality, I will not commit suicide. Do you know why? It's not my money, nor my social status, nor even my friendships (though those, I agree with you, massively boost our ability to obtain our own advantage and make life better).

It is because I enjoy life. I enjoy philosophical debate (even with myself), solving differential equations, and puzzling over number theory. I enjoy playing piano. I enjoy playing video games and reading books and having sex and eating delicious food. If those things were taken away I would find other things to enjoy.

You have the luxury to enjoy life because you already have wast resources of power at your disposal. Some of the activities you describe accumulate more power than others, but as long as you do not put too much emphasis on seeking momentary enjoyment over power acquisition, you are going to live a happy life no doubt.

...but if your definition of power is, essentially, anything that (actually) benefits a person, then it is an impotent concept.

So far the shortest definition of power I've been able to come up with has been "A being's ability to cause intended changes to it's internal or external reality". This definition isn't perfect by any means and leaves many natural phenomena unexplained. If power is defined this way, it's not really synonymous to anything that's actually beneficial to a person. External beneficial forces can increase a beings ability to cause intended changes, but they're not synonymous with an individual's power.

I wonder if you aren't using "power" in two different ways. One meaning "the ability to obtain benefit" (which is neither good nor bad, for an ability can be expressed to obtain benefit or not) and the other "the benefits accrued from one's actions."

These two things get tangled up easily when power acquisition is discussed. I've tried to use term "power acquisition" to describe the acts of using power to influence one's internal and external reality in a way that accumulates power (or benefit). The power accrued from one's actions could perhaps be called "obtained power" or "power reserve". But you are right, I have used the terms quite ambiguously here. Further clarification of these concepts is required.

On a side note, I think the most fundamental "joy" comes from being a good person. A good person enjoys being honest, beneficent, compassionate, confident, et cetera. Provided they are not under severe and chronic duress, a virtuous person can enjoy being as they are (virtuous) even with very limited material resources. Jeff Beszos might be able to purchase his own island and completely define his external world to his liking, but even if he is wholly content, he isn't living a more worthwhile life than a middle-class programmer who spends his afternoons reading scifi and watching movies with his fiance.

This sounds like a perfectly good power acquisition strategy to me: a strong emphasis on control over one's internal reality and an adoption of a social persona of a virtuous person. One can win a lot of admiration and gain a lot of self-esteem by having such a strong character. I don't want to downplay the importance of what you have stated here - strifing to be a good person is indeed very important for a person's well-being. A person should always be able to look himself in a mirror, knowing that he has stayed true to him principles.

However, you should still be aware what you're in fact doing when you strife to be a "good person". If I understood your definition of a good person correctly, he is essentially choosing to conform to whatever moral and social norms your surrounding society deems desirable. He is trading individual power and freedom to obtain societal respect, the benefits of cooperation and a sense of belonging. I believe qualities like "good" and "virtuous" have different meanings in different societies, agreed? I actually agree that being altruistic and adopting a persona of a virtuous person can create a very powerful hiveish experience of joy. I'm not sure if I've mentioned Jonathan Haidt in this thread, but he often states that psychologically human beings are 90% chimp and 10 % bee. Most of the time we act selfishly, but on some special occasions we have the ability to sacrifice our own selfish interests for the greater good of a collective. For instance many war veterans told Haidt that their happiest moments in life have been during battle, when they have completely forgotten their individual desires, willing to sacrifice their lives for their brothers at arms. This sort of deep experience of belonging is a profound, beautiful experience, but it has also be used as a tool by oppressive governments to brainwash citizens to giving up their lives for their nation. I seem to be rather sidetracked here, but I merely wanted to give my interpretation on what a concept like a "good person" might entail. No one can become a virtuous person in a vacuum - it's always a set of characteristics deeply influenced by one's upbringing and societal norms.
 

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