Cheating is endemic in rpgs. Being forced not to reload puts you on disadvantage

[rusty_shackleford]

Easy answer: make mechanics deterministic.

This is the best way to make rpgs not rpgs. Rpgs are simulations. Nonrandom systems are not simulations. Is the way to fix baseball making every swing hit? Its a ridiculous idea. Yet a game just came out where every shot hits, which is even more ridiculous. The core of great rpg systems is giving the player the tools to manipulate the random system placed over the nonrandom system.

People saying fully nonrandom is the answer to rpg simulation systems are like people saying murder is the answer to reducing the amount of sick people.

1. Hitting a ball in baseball is based on skill, not a random throw of a die.
2. If you miss, you get two more swings.

 

[FeelTheRads]

1. Hitting a ball in baseball is based on skill, not a random throw of a die.
2. If you miss, you get two more swings.

If it's only based on skill then you either hit or you miss. That's it.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

1. Hitting a ball in baseball is based on skill, not a random throw of a die.

Not really. It's pitcher's skill vs swinger's skill, and no one ever peak-performs everytime-all-the-time. There's some dice being rolled there.

 

[Black Angel]

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with save-reload.

Apparently, based on this thread's OP, save-reload is wrong when RNG is involved.

Or whatever. I really can't seem to understand what's his point, or his phobia of it for that matter.

 

[Ranarama]

Not really. It's pitcher's skill vs swinger's skill, and no one ever peak-performs everytime-all-the-time. There's some dice being rolled there.

Pretty sure they use balls, not dice.

 

[Excommunicator]

what is this thread even about ? save-scumming?

it is what you make it to be.

It was supposed to point out that even if you reload only on death in battle, it rises your effective hit chance while lowers enemy hit and crit.
Granted I might have not made it clear nor im good at making polls. Looking at results it appears that codexers are playing mainly ironman which is laughable(and doesnt match other threads about ironman).
Lets look at following example: you build a high initiative, evasive glass cannon. Enemies got mere 10% chance to hit you and they need to hit twice.
Your strategy is clear: you expect to start battle first and put down few enemies before they can act. Lets say you play alone against 6 enemies. Since after your action 4 enemies are still standing and they attack once each, chance of you losing is 1%. Quite laughable.
Thing is you are expected to die once in 100 such rounds. Obviously game will throw more at you. What you will do is reload. It can also be more extreme, like having bad initiative roll and enemies starting first or boss critting which will force you to reload too.
You went through the game with only single reload on highest diff. Your build must be awesome.
Except its not how it works. You have rigged game in your favor.

And if you think that this example was too extreme, judging by replies high initiative glass cannon was chosen best build in DOS1, here on codex.

Rigged the game? Are you kidding me? Half of the fun of any RPG is devising the strategy that will achieve this. Seeing your dominance against your enemies is the reward.

It is absolutely not the designer's job to dictate how players should play with draconian save measures, they only need to be concerned about achieving a reasonable balance between the game's difficulty and encouraging players to play through their losses rather than always reload.

You are also well forgetting the fact that most game designers will design encounters with a certain amount of reloading in mind which feeds into the problem but also justifies the behaviour.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Pretty sure they use balls, not dice.

What the fuck is a ball? You're losing me here.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Sigourn]

You are also well forgetting the fact that most game designers will design encounters with a certain amount of reloading in mind which feeds into the problem but also justifies the behaviour.

Agree. It sucks because those of us who want to play "normally", i.e. no reloads, get fucked because the odds are heavily skewed against us since devs expected players to simply reload.

 

[ManaJunkie]

If a non linear RPG doesn´t allow me to make mistakes, it should´t be considered worth playing.

 

[Cyberpink2069]

I always play games on an old pentium pro where loading a save game takes 20 min (+) to prevent myself from save scumming.

 

[disposable]

Is the outcome of a lukaszek thread random or deterministic?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Is the outcome of a lukaszek thread random or deterministic?

Deterministic. On the codex, autism happpens.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I don't get it, how is reloading cheating? If I die in a game I have to uninstall it and throw away the disc?

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

So not only that you find yourself reloading because of meaningless shit like "achievements", but you also feel the need to justify it on the Codex... interesting. :D

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

I suspect this thread is relevant here:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-great-evil-of-save-scumming.120685/

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Alkarl]

Reloading isn't cheating, but it can be endemic of a certain playstyle.

Is it the most OP, uncapped ability you're likely to have in most games that is never given story context?

A design philosophy that respects a players time?

I would argue, that in most cases, reloading is too abusive. In the rest, it's mostly a crutch propping up poor design.

 

[Master]

I don't get it, how is reloading cheating? If I die in a game I have to uninstall it and throw away the disc?

No, but you have to start the game from the beginning. Or at least from the beginning of the level. Good thing about this is you would end up playing only the good games and wouldn't bother with shitty ones.

 

[Sigourn]

I don't get it, how is reloading cheating? If I die in a game I have to uninstall it and throw away the disc?

Reloading should be done only when necessary, i.e. when it's Game Over. People reloading incessantly over the slightest of issues is what, in a way, caused Bethesda to go full essential companions in Fallout 4.

Though you can chalk it up to companions being added very late in development (and thus shallow as hell) I never bothered reloading if any of them died in Fallout 1. That is why, a year later after I last played Fallout, I remember Tycho dying to Set's army of ghouls. Companion deaths, amongst other failures, are very important to have a game be memorable.

I pity those who reload when it isn't necessary. They will never experience the sweet taste of landing a natural (not forced) critical hit and winning a fight.

 

[Sykar]

I don't get it, how is reloading cheating? If I die in a game I have to uninstall it and throw away the disc?

Reloading should be done only when necessary, i.e. when it's Game Over. People reloading incessantly over the slightest of issues is what, in a way, caused Bethesda to go full essential companions in Fallout 4.

Though you can chalk it up to companions being added very late in development (and thus shallow as hell) I never bothered reloading if any of them died in Fallout 1. That is why, a year later after I last played Fallout, I remember Tycho dying to Set's army of ghouls. Companion deaths, amongst other failures, are very important to have a game be memorable.

I pity those who reload when it isn't necessary. They will never experience the sweet taste of landing a natural (not forced) critical hit and winning a fight.

What utter nonsense. Unless you are save scumming every damn action anyone will have a "natural" critical hit, what an idiotic term, so do pray tell where are these people because frankly I never met anyone who save scums that extreme. As to Tycho, a bad example. The companions in FO 1 were terrible from a gameplay perspective. Not only was their AI awful they did not scale at all in the game. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows that they were implemented as an experiment to see if they can pull it off. They did, just barely. The companions have a little to say early on but as the game progresses Ian in his leather jacket essentially becomes destined to die since the most you can do is gift him a better weapon but without at least Combat Armor you will have a very hard time surviving at the later stages. To top it all of their deaths are meaningless to the story. I never found it "memorable" at most annoying but usually forgettable. I for sure cannot remember where they died and the main reason that I did not reload was that they had become dead weight anyway.

 

[Sigourn]

What utter nonsense. Unless you are save scumming every damn action anyone will have a "natural" critical hit, what an idiotic term, so do pray tell where are these people because frankly I never met anyone who save scums that extreme.

There are people who savescum critical hits when it is their only shot at defeating an enemy, is that really that hard to believe? Moreover, if you savescum hits at all, then getting a critical hit afterwards isn't the same as getting it without any savescumming involved. Why? Because you've already savescummed your attacks landing.

 

[Sykar]

What utter nonsense. Unless you are save scumming every damn action anyone will have a "natural" critical hit, what an idiotic term, so do pray tell where are these people because frankly I never met anyone who save scums that extreme.

There are people who savescum critical hits when it is their only shot at defeating an enemy, is that really that hard to believe? Moreover, if you savescum hits at all, then getting a critical hit afterwards isn't the same as getting it without any savescumming involved. Why? Because you've already savescummed your attacks landing.

Yeah, sure I can believe that. The rest? Bollocks. But more importantly just because I can believe that somewhere out there is an autist so retarded that he made his build and party composition so crappy that the only way for him to beat a certain boss by chain criticals does not mean that he or she is not a monumental exception. The majority of people do not save scum. No gamer I know save scums. You are making up this ridiculous shit in the vain hope to have the faintest hint of an argument. Newsflash, you don't.

And no, reloading is not cheating. In fact everybody here I know hates check/save points and I am sure if a game would not offer free saving and reloading most people here would criticize the game for it. Free saving and reloading is an essential part because most people have fucking lives outside there and do not want to replay half an hour or an hour just because some friends or family came over for a surprise visit.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG