Knights of The Chalice (possibly ironman)

[Darth Canoli]

I've replayed (more like tested as i didn't finish half of them ) a couple of old RPG recently, made me in the mood to discover some oldies i never played like this one.

I even tried an iron-man play-through (well, 3 actually) and my party was wiped out 3 times (i saved right after the party creation which saved me the trouble of making 3 different parties )

Spoiler

- First one, killed the summoned elementals (some casualties but they're just KO), then the orc invaders (same ^^' ) and instead of resting, i went to explore the diner room and was brutally assaulted and eaten by a millipede ...

- After all this (except the millipedes) i wandered aimlessly on the world map and thinking i was enterring a city, which i did, i enterred a dead city populated by snakes, after a mix of half fight / half fleeing worst battle tactic ever, they finally died at the "hand" of the last snake (out of 3, didn't really get the hang of the grapple thing)

- Not sure about the third one, which might be the second play-through ...

So, i was wondering if some KotC experts would be kind enough to give me some advices, outside of stats, which i think i can manage having played many RPG, except if there is some hidden truth that need to be told.

- party composition ? (i had a single handed longsword warrior, 2Hsword warrior, a mage and a cleric )
- perks for warriors, mages and clerics ? (i found cleave quite handy and there is some hints in game but there might be some not that obvious perks with a good potential )
- some hints ?
- is it possible to ironman it on the first playthrough ? I usually only do it with games i know very well but i feel i have to spice it up for this one.

Also, some questions, the beginning is quite good between the elemental summoning event and the orc invasion, is there many scripted events like this ?

Some interesting riddles ?

 

[Darth Roxor]

If you're going with two wammos, I recommend speccing one into bow. The slaying arrows are too good to pass up.

- is it possible to ironman it on the first playthrough ?

Highly unlikely.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

is it possible to ironman it on the first playthrough ?

doubt it, in fact it is very improbable to successfully finish the game on ironman even if you know the game well

party composition ? (i had a single handed longsword warrior, 2Hsword warrior, a mage and a cleric )

well, the more casters you have the easier the game will be (best is 2clerics, 2 wizards)
although of course the first couple fights, elementals, orks, centipede etc will be harder, basically the pre-fireball game will be harder
work with sleep, soundburst -> coup de grace

- perks for warriors, mages and clerics ?

-scribe scrolls feat for clerics so they can exchange spells/ craft healing scrolls anywhere
- improved initiative for all casters
- greater spell penetration for all casters
- greater spell focus enchantment on wizards (dominate spells)
- max out ac, ie. fighters/cleric-> mithral full plate allows for 16 dex, mages mithral leather 22 dex iirc, mithral light shield on casters for more ac (dont wield weapon when casting)
- cloak of displacement on everyone
- distribute crafting feats among party, craft wondrous, magic arms/armor, wand and rings are also good

Early on they send you to one village , i forgot which type of enemies were there, probably the lizard men. The other option is to go Spidercave. Spider cave is relatively hard pre-fireball. You can go to the right-most town on the map just to donate some gold in the temple for a significant xp boost at the beginning of the game. If you see lone spider encounters on the map you can grind those, they drop powerful magic items for early levels, avoid the other encounters and grind on lone spiders.

 

[Darth Canoli]

If you're going with two wammos, I recommend speccing one into bow. The slaying arrows are too good to pass up.

Oh, i think i saw them, the dwarf sells some, very expensive stuff.

Well, i mean following the quest-line, which i didn't so far, i was just testing and wandering, but that sounds like a challenge, i'll grab my cautious boots +25 and give it a proper shot.

VentilatorOfDoom Thanks for the tips, never played a single RPG (except solo ones) without a warrior, the orc battle is quite hard at the beginning, not sure i can survive it without one, maybe specializing the clerics into warriors at first ?

In case i pick at least a warrior, which i'm probably going to do, should i go with 2 clerics or 2 mages (i saw Roxor's post with his 2 cleric 1 wa 1 mage party composition from a couple of years back )

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You can craft all types of slaying arrows later (if you take the feats)

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

In case i pick at least a warrior, which i'm probably going to do, should i go with 2 clerics or 2 mages (i saw Roxor's post with his 2 cleric 1 wa 1 mage party composition from a couple of years back )

Well, having two of each caster type is preferable at endgame, it's hard to say which one will be the greater asset, true resurrection, mass heals, mass harms, or dominate monster, greater disintegrate, irresistible dance, haste, dehydrate? I'd say mages probably give more bang for the buck (because the cleric spell list is very sparse at higher levels) but true resurrection, mass death ward, mass heals is also good to have a plenty.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Also, i realize now where spiderwed got its inspiration, well, i can say i'm not impressed, i pick this one over ruined world (the last remake) without hesitation, if one needed a confirmation, this is it! The decline era is upon us ...

Well, having two of each caster type is preferable at endgame, it's hard to say which one will be the greater asset, true resurrection, mass heals, mass harms, or dominate monster, greater disintegrate, irresistible dance, haste, dehydrate? I'd say mages probably give more bang for the buck (because the cleric spell list is very sparse at higher levels) but true resurrection, mass death ward, mass heals is also good to have a plenty.

Well, i think you sold it, there's always a first for everything, i guess ...

 

[Damned Registrations]

I did a run with 3 wiz 1 cleric and it was a complete joke after getting fireballs. Even early on, Web is an insanely good spell (except vs spiders obviously) and they just get more crazy later on. You'll definitely need at least 1 cleric though, and 2 provides some redundancy if one gets KO'd.

If you're going to go heavy on wizards, give at least one a heavy weapon (proficiency doesn't matter) to perform coup de grace on sleeping enemies. Sleep is your workhorse lvl 1 mage spell, and you don't want to be trying to finish a bear off with a dagger.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

When I made a 2c & 2w party I made one of the clerics the melee tank, ie. mul starting with 20 STR, cleave etc. A caster can't cast when he has shield and weapon equiped, so I made a wand (1d6 blunt weapon) for him, enchant with +4 holy destruction, enchanted with 50 charges Divine Power (craft wand feat), so he could melee in peace without having to de-equip weapon or shield. When you wanna start casting for real with that guy, just de-equip the weapon so you keep the shield AC, do all your casting then re-equip weapon and go to town.

When making a knight early on 2handers (big dmg) or sword&board (defense) are best but eventually bows become very viable when you are higher level and can afford slaying arrows and enchant your bows with all kinds of effects. Also very good will be dual-wielders at high levels, because 2 vorpal swords with lots of attacks per round will have a noticeable effect, since mobs tend to fail their saves eventually.

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, 2 wizards is the standard rule for powergaming KOTC. 2 warriors should be fine, of course, but less roflstompy.

 

[Darth Roxor]

dammit now i feel like playing this again

 

[Darth Canoli]

Well, it's ON !

Strangely, the orc raid was even easier, probably because i was extra-cautious; one cleric is an archer, the other one having cleave.
Of course, i over used sleep and hid behind the walls at first, letting the soldiers work a bit.

Then, on the road to Corinth, a bandit leader and his henchmen had it as well, there's no stopping me now, ah, well, i'll try to stay as cautious as i can.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I gave up on the iron man run, cautiousness bores me.

Anyone knows about a good guide ?
Search engines are full of DDO thing when i search for knight of the chalice.

A couple of questions :
- isn't there a priest somewhere capable of resurrecting characters ? So far, there was just a scroll sold by the mage, it's expensive.
- Are the merchant's inventories refreshed at some point ? How often ?
- Also, the farmer in Corinth talked about a key to the house next from his own but i might have clicked too fast and not only i don't have it, i have no idea how to get it.

 

[aweigh]

kotc is probably one of the least-fun gasmes to iron man, although i guess it would depend on whether you're masochistic or not.

this game is amazing, btw, a true gem.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[C.H.A.R.L.I.E]

i think a "no crafting" challenge will be more fun than iron man.

 

[Jabber]

I played through Kotc blind ironman and thought it was great? The game gives you plenty of tools to keep yourself safe even if you don't know what's coming (craftable consumables become really, really strong). I didn't have any deaths past the early game (a little past the spider queen ish).

Maybe I just got lucky though.

I played with 1 knight, 1 cleric and two wizards, which felt like the right balance between fun and powerful. Knight is helpful early on, albeit outclassed later in the game.

The game really is a gem - however only the first third of the game is truly exceptional.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

If you have a warrior I recommend half orc or some other large bodied warrior. You can then dual weild bastard swords, which are the only two handed swords in the game that can be dual-weilded. DW bastards with Vorpal Blade feat and cleave is meat chopper central and a lot of fun.

Unarmed is absolute dogshit due to total lack of knuckle weapons, meaning unarmed is gimped with no enhancements, effects or multipliers.

Bows are OK for status effects or special arrows only. You will be limited to two attacks per round with weak multipliers, so archers are gimped for damage but can be effective for ranged single target dispatching or control. I can think of some encounters where win/loss hinged on effective use of magic arrows in the opening round.

I played with a 2h axe/Archer and a DW large bodied warrior. While the game is more difficult with two warriors it is also rewarding and the mechanics are fun.

Grapple is OK but you will need specific tactics to use it effectively.

Avoid the cheese that is crafted wand abuse.

 

[Roqua]

KotC is old? That's crazy talk.

i think a "no crafting" challenge will be more fun than iron man.

I never crafted anything in KotC. Or ToEE. But not because I wanted a challenge - I just don't even think of them when picking feats. Maybe if it didn't cost XP I'd look at taking a couple, but having to waste a feat and then waste hard earned XP doesn't appeal to me.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also, i realize now where spiderwed got its inspiration, well, i can say i'm not impressed,

What are you talking about?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Also, i realize now where spiderwed got its inspiration, well, i can say i'm not impressed,

What are you talking about?

I guess he's just alerting us to the fact that he's a monumental moron. But then most of his quotes would provide the same conclusion so I guess he likes reiteration/spam.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Well, i picked 3 craft feats but i'm starting to regret it, well, let's say if i barely use them, it'll be like a hard mode.

About the team, i followed VentilatorOfDoom advices and picked 2 clerics + two wizards.

It's fun so far, i've cleaned Corinth, got my 2K xp boost from the farthest city for 1K gold and even got myself into far more trouble that i can manage.*

(*) In the second farthest city, when a slave ask you for assistance.

Spoiler

Of course, i stepped in, just to discover her master is a Troll with 99 hp while my clerics were around 40, then, two Troll buddies shows up ...
Brave to the end, i stood up long enough to throw an elemental to their faces and run away ...

Except i don't know how to escape a fight, so when i reached the border of the screen, the Trolls were crushing a second elemental and i loaded my last save ^^'

FeelTheRads

Spoiler

that's what happens when you re-write a sentence and forget to remove one word.
The Avernum series seems a cheap ripoff of KotC and i just met the talking spiders so it's even more obvious.

I have nothing about revamping the classics but as everything is already there, it should be to improve the story, the combat system, everything, which it isn't so it's a(nother) disappointment.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I still don't know what you mean.

KotC is not "old", not "Gold Box" and most Spiderweb games have been released before it.

Unless you're referring to the Avernum remakes, but that doesn't make sense either. They're just "rip-offs" of the originals.

 

[Darth Canoli]

My bad then, i didn't get my facts straights, being in a replay old games momentum, i put this one in that category and forgot about it before i replayed it.

So, either that's the other way around and this time, KotC is an improvement compared to Avernum or they get their inspiration from the same source.

KotC isn't search engine friendly though, i can't get much infos about it.

Edit : IncendiaryDevice

Spoiler

So, i got the review on duckduckgo, didn't learn much, not half as much as i would like too and about Avernum, i know the series, i've played some, KotC is far superior, though.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

KotC isn't search engine friendly though, i can't get much infos about it.

Second result:

https://www.giantbomb.com/knights-of-the-chalice/3030-27808/

First result:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=avern...8-7&sk=&cvid=D3F8C4C97C5945F092F162C84B854600