1eyedking Planescape: Torment doesn't have good writing (Part 2)

[Jacob]

I am trained in gorilla warfare

 

[Big Wrangle]

Planescape: Torment has alright writing (Part 3)
wtf I like Planescape: Torment now (Part 4)

 

[evdk]

Planescape: Torment has alright writing (Part 3)
wtf I like Planescape: Torment now (Part 4)

I don't even care about PS:T really and I have been trolling here for 10 years, send help (part 5)

 

[Yosharian]

So if you think P:ST's writing is bad, what game has good writing in your opinion?

 

[Delterius]

I propose that the OP be forced to wear Guido Henkel's beautiful face forever.

 

[Safav Hamon]

So if you think P:ST's writing is bad, what game has good writing in your opinion?

I could list many games, just because Planescape is so terrible.

One example I'll use is Arcanum, because it reminds me a lot of Planescape. I have a few complaints with the main plot, but the characters and dialog are far superior.

 

[Tigranes]

praises arcanum dialogue

quotes the part where arcanum goes "LIFE IS PAAAAAIN AND SO EVERYONE MUST DIEEEEE *guitar solo*"

 

[Black Angel]

I love Arcanum, too, but none of the characters hold a candle to Morte, for example. Or how Ravel appeared as multiple, different personas as you make your way to her.

 

[ItsChon]

Why the fuck are we still engaging with this retard. When it comes to something as subjective as writing, there is no "logical" argument to be had, because how are you going to defend something that comes down to personal taste. While I usually don't like calling someone a retard because they have an opinion that disagrees with mine, anyone that thinks PS:T has bad writing has tastes that are so wildly different from anything that is remotely good, that I have to question their mental faculties.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Another game that reminds me of Planescape is Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. It has the epic storyline of Planescape, without the pretentious writing, clunky walls of text, and pseudo-philosophical themes.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Why the fuck are we still engaging with this retard. When it comes to something as subjective as writing, there is no "logical" argument to be had

There's nothing subjective about any of this shit, and Torment's writing is objectively great, by gaming standards. Now of course you cannot compare it to professional writing, all though i will say i did read published novels with worse writing. A lot actually, as the amount of third or fourth rate garbage that pollutes the fantasy or sci-fi genres is quite high.

None of this matters though, since according to the OP, stuff like Milton is shit writing too. So either this is a troll tread or the OP is a brain dead cretin whose opinion we cannot take seriously.

Reminds when i used to frequent the classical music forums, there was always some moron who came to challenge the greatness of the established composers and tear down all the sacred cows under the rubric that everybody just followed the opinion of others and the retards in question genuinely believed the fact they were going against the grain in itself meant that they were right, while everybody else was wrong. And always they failed utterly, because there's a reason why we praise a Bach, or a Beethoven, because their music was objectively great.

 

[Safav Hamon]

None of this matters though, since according to the OP, stuff like Milton is shit writing too. .

I never said or implied that. Obviously none of the amateur writing in Planescape could compare to a poet like John Milton.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It was the other guy then. Doesn't matter. You are both retarded.

 

[ItsChon]

There's nothing subjective about any of this shit, and Torment's writing is objectively great, by gaming standards.

Why is it objectively great? Give me a logical reason that doesn't boil down to whether or not someone likes something. Note that PS:T is my favorite game ever, and I absolutely love the writing in it, but objectivity is based off of facts. There is nothing factual about something that boils down to whether or not someone likes it.

 

[Lyric Suite]

No logical reason can be provided. Some things can only be assessed by the intellect directly. Which doesn't mean they aren't true or objectively verifiable. This "lol everything is subjective" meme needs to fucking die. If you believe that, you are a moron, plain and simple.

Ho, you want me to prove that? Here, i'll demonstrate your retardation right now. Britney Spears was a greater musical genius than Beethoven. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

Can't believe there's still cretins out there who still buy into rationaltardism, even though it has been shown to be self-contradictory time and time again. Fucking idiots.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Objectivity doesn't exist when it comes to art, because you can use near unlimited standards to judge quality.

By the standards of what generally constitutes good writing though, Planescape meets none of them.

 

[ItsChon]

No logical reason can be provided. Some things can only be assessed by the intellect directly. Which doesn't mean they aren't true or objectively verifiable. This "lol everything is subjective" meme needs to fucking die. If you believe that, you are a moron, plain and simple.

Believe me, I'm one of the last people that subscribes to the "everything is subjective" farce. There are many things that are fundamental truths in the real world that, like you said, aren't "true" or objectively verifiable. Judging by your signature, I think we'd probably agree on a lot of things regarding that. However, this doesn't help us when it comes to making an argument.

My point is that the OP is wrong, but there is nothing we can do or say to show he is wrong because art isn't objectively verifiable. We should just accept the fact that he's a retard and move on.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Lyric Suite, you claim Planescape is shit compared to novels, but great as a videogame. The issue is that Planescape is written more like a visual novel than a videogame.

An example of good videogame writing is something like Fallout: New Vegas or VtmB, where the dialog exists to compliment the gameplay. Not Planescape: Torment, where the purpose of the dialog is to expand upon some amatuer's cheap attempt at storytelling.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Objectivity doesn't exist when it comes to art

Bullshit. It does and that is how we have arrived at the canon of greats. There is a reason we praise Beethoven and not, say, a Hummel, a Cherubini or any other contemporary of his. Because his music was objectively greater and enduring than theirs. If what you said was true there is no reason whatsoever to pay attention to a Bach, or a Shakespeare, or a Goethe, or a Michelangelo etc etc since we only praise those artists because we've been told to praise them, and not because they objectively stood out from their peers.

An example of good videogame writing is something like Fallout: New Vegas or VtmB, where the dialog exists to compliment the gameplay. Not Planescape: Torment, where the purpose of the dialog is to expand upon some amatuer's cheap attempt at storytelling.

You just set out an arbitrary definition of what constitutes "good writing in games" and you flunked Torment based on a standard of your own making that has nothing whatsoever to do with any objectively defined quality in the writing.

 

[Safav Hamon]

You're not listening. There are common standards we can use to judge the quality of writing, but you can also use a different set of standards from the norm.

Planescape fails all the standards society has defined for what constitutes good writing. I suppose if you use some different set of standards, you could make the case it has good writing. I'm not doing that however.

 

[Lyric Suite]

However, this doesn't help us when it comes to making an argument.

I don't see why not. The fact there are things that cannot be proven or objectively defined in a discursive manner doesn't mean they cannot be discussed. I don't have to be able to "prove" a certain truth to you to express it, and the fact said truth cannot be proven discursively doesn't mean it isn't worth expressing, for knowledge of this kind is inward anyway, and by uttering said truth one can generate an inward realization in the listener. This is the basis of all ancient wisdom or "philosophy" (in the older sense of the word). In the Gospel of John, we are told that "in the beginning was the Word (Logos), and that the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is a metaphysical proposition. Nothing in this statement is "proven" discursively, but St. John still expected you to understand what he meant.

This is how all knowledge of an invisible kind is passed along.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You're not listening. There are common standards we can use to judge the quality of writing, but you can also use a different set of standards from the norm.

Planescape fails all the standards society has defined for what constitutes good writing. I suppose if you use some different set of standards, you could make the case it has good writing. I'm not doing that however.

Writing lessons from an illiterate. Good fun.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Planescape fails all the standards society has defined for what constitutes good writing.

First of all, society has defined no such standards, you did. Second, whether any kind of writings meet the criteria of an "external" and arbitrary standard has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the writing is good or not, because quality in writing cannot be "defined" externally, can only be assessed inwardly. This is the basis of my entire argument here.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Yes, society does have standards for what constitutes good writing. You admitted this yourself when you claimed 'objectively good writing' exists.

Someone made an interesting argument in the last thread that Planescape is bad, but it's bad in the same way punk rock is. Punk music, by societies standard of what constitutes good music, is bad music. Planescape, by societies standard of what constitutes good writing, has bad writing. The only difference is that I like Punk Rock and hate Planescape.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

literature snobs are some of the most annoying people next to vegans and stoners.