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Fallout What in the Hell could redeem a system like VATS?

King Crispy

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No such thing as "as opposed to", your definition of RPG is retarded. A "game" with no player skill is a movie, not a game.

You can't even understand the basic difference between your character's statistics determining success in combat and you, personally, possessing the ability to move a real-world mouse with more or less speed and accuracy than someone else playing the game?
 

deuxhero

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VATS is useful for all the wrong things and useless for what it should be good at. VATS is automated spoting of enemies if you spam activation, which breaks tons of shits. It also has a near 100% chance to hit in close quarters regardless of character skill, and it's only hard with player skill because Bethesda's basic walking physics are fucked and enemies can spin around and start moving full speed instantly. It should be good for distant shots on an unmoving target with a good scoped rifle, but there it has zero accuracy even though any player can make that given time.

These are all theoretically fixable (though mods won't because they're hardcoded), but there's no real gain to bothering; Even if everything worked perfectly it just becomes a recharging super move that's inferior to all the other options for giving the player character a super move that have been done. Even one that does the unique things VATS can allow (but are useless because shooting enemies directly is better), disarming shots and hitting grenades, are done better by bullet time.
 

Mastermind

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No such thing as "as opposed to", your definition of RPG is retarded. A "game" with no player skill is a movie, not a game.

You can't even understand the basic difference between your character's statistics determining success in combat and you, personally, possessing the ability to move a real-world mouse with more or less speed and accuracy than someone else playing the game?

No, I can understand it just fine, I just don't think it's a genre defining difference because it's impossible to play a game without overriding the character's abilities with the player's to some extent. Conversely, every non-rpg also has the character override the player's abilities to some extent as well (I can't pull off the moves Lara Croft can, for example). This definition was manufactured by butthurt turn based fanboys to exclude real time RPGs from being "pure" rpg (there's no such thing as a pure RPG, rpgs are hybrids by their nature, but that's another topic for another thread).
 

Tigranes

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Tigranes, you must be implying that non-use of VATS in these games still somehow represents your character's (not your) skills in combat according to his stats, right?

You do realize that these games feature ammunition that when fired actually follows an impossible curve to hit your target in order to make up for the fact that they're in real time and thus cannot represent your character's skills, right?

So which is more retarded?

You are.

1) I said exactly the opposite. I said F3/NV non-VATS gunplay is fucked up, and that VATS only tries to obscure this with another fucked up system.

2) The fact that the RT play is fucked up doesn't excuse VATS being fucked up.
 

Sigourn

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No, I can understand it just fine, I just don't think it's a genre defining difference because it's impossible to play a game without overriding the character's abilities with the player's to some extent. Conversely, every non-rpg also has the character override the player's abilities to some extent as well (I can't pull off the moves Lara Croft can, for example). This definition was manufactured by butthurt turn based fanboys to exclude real time RPGs from being "pure" rpg (there's no such thing as a pure RPG, rpgs are hybrids by their nature, but that's another topic for another thread).

It's easier for Crispy to call your post autistic than it is for her to admit there's no such thing as roleplaying a terrible fighter without a huge degree of LARPing mirroring Oblivion levels of pretending, even in a game like Fallout: a skilled player will make much more out of a bad fighter than a player new to the genre.

Maximum RPGness will be achieved when we get a "Tactics" stat that plays out fights for ourselves. A character with a high Tactics stat will be a much more intelligent character that will win fights against the odds.
 

laclongquan

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1. VATS is only useless when you can shoot well in real time mode. You dont need the assistance from this targeting system. Thus you are a good twitch player. Nothing wrong with that as you still can be a good boy. You dindu nutink~

2. VATS is extremely useful if you want to have time to pause in real time combat to figure out where is that sucker with big hammer gone to, where the poisonous flying giant insect has gone to, do I need to change location, etc etc... You know, tactical shits. Sure, the targeting on body parts are also very useful, but this tactical help matter more.

3. If you are commenting things in Fallout 3 instead Fallout New Vegas (because you havent played it or you would have done so) you are a fucking moron.

SO when you complain about VATS, thus showing off you are a good FPS shooter, remember where you are doing what. The hell you doing in RPGcodex? The hell you doing on my lawn? Get off my lawn you fucking punk!

:shunthenonbeliever:
 

Shadenuat

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It's not that making character skills matter in shooter can't be done, it's that VATS does it terribly. Even original Fallouts while also being about clicking on enemy eyes and making their heads explode did give enemies chance - they'd at least get their own turns. In nu-fallouts you can use bullet time to kill waves after waves of enemies without them acting, ever.
 

Yosharian

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I personally don't mind VATS or no VATS conceptually, but the way Beth implemented it, they made it way too powerful.
 

Tigranes

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Exactly. VATS, it seems, was never really designed to provide any coherent correspondence between real-time and it's weird stop-motion time, and it was never designed to provide a fair fighting chance to enemies. It's essentially 'press to go bullet-time and make things explode', and it was also 'if you're in trouble for any reason fire vats to make the fight a lot easier'.
 

Cael

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What in the Hell could redeem a system like VATS?
A few of these:
united-states-detonating-an-atomic-bomb-at-bikini-atoll-in-micronesia-picture-id646470372
 

thesheeep

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No, I can understand it just fine, I just don't think it's a genre defining difference because it's impossible to play a game without overriding the character's abilities with the player's to some extent. Conversely, every non-rpg also has the character override the player's abilities to some extent as well (I can't pull off the moves Lara Croft can, for example). This definition was manufactured by butthurt turn based fanboys to exclude real time RPGs from being "pure" rpg (there's no such thing as a pure RPG, rpgs are hybrids by their nature, but that's another topic for another thread).

It's easier for Crispy to call your post autistic than it is for her to admit there's no such thing as roleplaying a terrible fighter without a huge degree of LARPing mirroring Oblivion levels of pretending, even in a game like Fallout: a skilled player will make much more out of a bad fighter than a player new to the genre.

Maximum RPGness will be achieved when we get a "Tactics" stat that plays out fights for ourselves. A character with a high Tactics stat will be a much more intelligent character that will win fights against the odds.
You are talking about different types of player skill here.

Building a good character, making sound tactical decisions, those are also player skills, yes. But only intellectual/mental ones, mostly coming from knowledge and understanding.

But what is usually implied when saying that "player skill reliance makes a game less of an RPG" is the physical skill. Twitch reflexes, keyboard & mouse (or, god forbid, controller) handling, etc.
Stuff the dumbest of idiots can pull off.
 

FeelTheRads

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You're just wasting your breath with that.
Some people are just too dumb.

Also, it's not really about intellectual vs dumb. It's about replacing character skill with player skill. Like aiming, since we're talking about VATS.

Only an imbecilic braindead moron like Mastermind would think selecting a move over another, for example, means overriding the character's abilities.
 

Jacob

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VATS is useful because I can never hit anything playing New Vegas without it. In other words, it's a cheat for an unplayable game.
 

Sigourn

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You are talking about different types of player skill here.

Building a good character, making sound tactical decisions, those are also player skills, yes. But only intellectual/mental ones, mostly coming from knowledge and understanding.

But what is usually implied when saying that "player skill reliance makes a game less of an RPG" is the physical skill. Twitch reflexes, keyboard & mouse (or, god forbid, controller) handling, etc.
Stuff the dumbest of idiots can pull off.

In other words: you are upset "the dumbest of idiots" are better than you at playing an RPG, so you call those games "worse RPGs". Really pathetic tbh.
 

Lurker47

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At least in FNV they nerfed the hell out of it and if you use it in the wrong moment, raiders get to fill you with bullets while you can't do a thing
Buffing it with melee was also a neat idea.

It'd be cool if it gave you special moves no matter what but limited your movement and gunfire (perhaps even just a flat damage nerf but higher cripple chance?) in certain ways; like you play more RPG-y but it can fuck up your positioning and health advantage in a fight if you're not too careful. Or something like that.
 

Okagron

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At least in FNV they nerfed the hell out of it and if you use it in the wrong moment, raiders get to fill you with bullets while you can't do a thing
Yeah, they increased the damage you take in VATS to 75% from the 10% in Fallout 3 (jesus, who thought taking only 10% damage while in this mode was a good idea?) and enemies aren't slowed down as much as they are in Fallout 3. It makes using VATS in New Vegas much more of a bigger risk than in Fallout 3.
 

Lurker47

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At least in FNV they nerfed the hell out of it and if you use it in the wrong moment, raiders get to fill you with bullets while you can't do a thing
Yeah, they increased the damage you take in VATS to 75% from the 10% in Fallout 3 (jesus, who thought taking only 10% damage while in this mode was a good idea?) and enemies aren't slowed down as much as they are in Fallout 3. It makes using VATS in New Vegas much more of a bigger risk than in Fallout 3.
Apparently not too much of a risk because I 100%'d the game and literally never noticed that, lol.
 
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At least in FNV they nerfed the hell out of it and if you use it in the wrong moment, raiders get to fill you with bullets while you can't do a thing
Yeah, they increased the damage you take in VATS to 75% from the 10% in Fallout 3 (jesus, who thought taking only 10% damage while in this mode was a good idea?) and enemies aren't slowed down as much as they are in Fallout 3. It makes using VATS in New Vegas much more of a bigger risk than in Fallout 3.
Apparently not too much of a risk because I 100%'d the game and literally never noticed that, lol.

The moment I knew VATS was retarded in FO3, was when I was fighting the Talon Company in Fort Bannister, and some nigga fires a FUCKING ROCKET at me. I was low HP, and hadn't saved, so it looked like GAME OVER... except I pressed the VATS button and realized then that, yep, I could survive that.

So I did.

A FUCKING ROCKET!
 

Lurker47

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At least in FNV they nerfed the hell out of it and if you use it in the wrong moment, raiders get to fill you with bullets while you can't do a thing
Yeah, they increased the damage you take in VATS to 75% from the 10% in Fallout 3 (jesus, who thought taking only 10% damage while in this mode was a good idea?) and enemies aren't slowed down as much as they are in Fallout 3. It makes using VATS in New Vegas much more of a bigger risk than in Fallout 3.
Apparently not too much of a risk because I 100%'d the game and literally never noticed that, lol.

The moment I knew VATS was retarded in FO3, was when I was fighting the Talon Company in Fort Bannister, and some nigga fires a FUCKING ROCKET at me. I was low HP, and hadn't saved, so it looked like GAME OVER... except I pressed the VATS button and realized then that, yep, I could survive that.

So I did.

A FUCKING ROCKET!
It should limit your survivability and DPS severely for specific tactical options. All of its usages (first shots, automatically jumping forward, all of its stupid perks, etc) seemed to be an afterthought to just easy-moding cripple shots.
 

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