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KickStarter Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption - adventure-RPG from the creators of Quest for Glory

fantadomat

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It can only be good if it pisses off Fantadomat.
Hahahahaha you are still butthurt about the football thread. Mate don't mix football with other things,half the fun of the game is arguing/fighting/jabbing with people from the other team.

PS:I have no ill feelings toward you mate,it was just football talk.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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By the way, I thought this exchange was pretty funny:
The Coles said:
Some Guy said:
You guys pay what you want. If I'm spending $35 I'm going to get AAA games. You don't charge AAA prices for indy games in my book. Daedalic and Wadjeteye regularly release adventure games at the $20-25 price point and they are extremely high quality, day 1 purchases, so I don't see why this studio couldn't do the same. I'm trying to give them my money, but I won't do it if I can get 50+ hours and a AAA experience for the same price.
That's a common attitude in the U.S. I'm told that Japanese gamers have an opposite attitude - they are less willing to pay a lot for a mass-market title, and happy to pay $100 or more for a "boutique game" that appeals to what they are looking for.
It needs some kind of Andhaira-style clickbait summary like: "Fed-up developer WRECKS ungrateful American fan who can't live up to Japanese standards."

The thing that's amusing is that U.S. gamers paid them over half a million bucks -- about a thousand such gamers shelling out $100+, and some madmen going up to $7,500 or $10,000.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Corey Cole ... says they're receiving about 50 press review code requests per day
This is starting to feel a little like:
General Leia: Use my personal code. If there's any allies to the Resistance... it's now or never.

...

Kaydel Connix: Our distress signal's been received at multiple points, but no response.

Larma D'Acy: They've heard us, but no one's coming.
This would've been funnier if I could find a video clip, but I couldn't, so it isn't. (It's amusing to me that these characters have names, though, and that people know their names.)

Anyway, it boggles my mind and shakes my faith in humanity that fans of the Coles scraped together hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the game, but old school adventure-game fans in the gaming press can't be bothered to spend a couple days to review the thing. By the time the reviews get posted now, players are going to be annoyed they missed the 10% off and will wait until the Thanksgiving sale, by which point they will have forgotten the reviews.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Richard Cobbett will probably come out with something eventually, unless he's too busy these days.

Actually, maybe that's why there isn't a review. Everybody was relying on him. :P
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Hero-U is an RPG and considerably longer than almost all adventure games even just for a single run, and more so if a reviewer wishes to be thorough and investigate C&C, reactivity. Not actually finishing games has never stopped the "gaming press" from writing "reviews" so be careful what you wish for.
But if that's the case, it was a catastrophic blunder not to release the review builds early to the press, no?

Richard Cobbett will probably come out with something eventually, unless he's too busy these days.
Yeah, I hope so. Though it sounds like he's busy with Unavowed at the moment.

Still, it's very weird that it went from RPS's "most anticipated game" for years to utter silence from the press. Just to put it in perspective, by this time post-release, A Golden Wake and Demetrios - The BIG Cynical Adventure each had at least seven Metacritic-counted reviews, and even Nelly Cootalot: The Fowl Fleet had three and Neofeud had one. (Those are quite obscure as adventure games go.) As best I can tell, there is only one review (The Adventure Gamer's) for Hero-U. Not "one Metcratic-counted review." One non-user review, period. I'm not sure I've ever seen a comparable media blackout on an adventure game, let alone on one that began with such fanfare, has been received by players with such enthusiasm, and sprang from such renowned developers. I don't think "too big to review" explains it, either -- Quest for Infamy had scared up four Metacritic-counted reviews within the first week.

Maybe the answer is that the press is simply no longer as active in covering adventures and smaller sites have vanished as Steam curation and whatnot took off. Dunno. But it's weird and disappointing, especially given that the Coles may wind up homeless due to the lack of coverage. Honestly, I wonder if the Coles somehow burned bridges with the gaming press. But how? I can't imagine that this one "SJW" joke would do it -- it seems pretty harmless.
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well you can try to find out. Get on Twitter and send Cobbett or somebody else a DM.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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That seems likely merely to discourage coverage of the game, or prompt ridicule of it on the grounds that fans are begging for reviews. It's a tough situation.
 

fantadomat

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The "press" is pretty much irrelevant when it come down to sales. I doubt that it will move many more copies even if the most press sites decide to write a review. Also it is no surprise that there is no press interest,it is a niche genre. It would have been more useful if they were promoting the game in the last month before release on a bunch of niche sites and youtubers that are interested in such games. Another big thing is how grindy the game is,it really doesn't feel like an adventure game,the amount of time needed to play it and write a review could off put some journos. Most adventure games could be finished in 5 hours,this one could take up to 30.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The "press" is pretty much irrelevant when it come down to sales.
I don't think so. Sure, these days it may not change people's minds about buying the game, but as publicity it is still relevant. The most important thing right now is to make potential customers aware that this game exists, and getting reviewed by popular gaming sites, or youtubers or whatever, is the number one way to do that.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Some interesting posts from the Coles, with good QFG lore and also some hard truths about being a developer. I find myself liking the Coles even more after reading them -- there's a very noble, quixotic quality to the posts, making clear the Coles came from a different era and are trying to still capture the joy of games back then, even if it may not have panned out.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559771983634/?ctp=4#c3160848559784342649
Snake, you are aware that Infamous Quests closed up shop and stopped making games because they did not make enough from sales to pay for continuing development? Is that what you want for every developer who makes content you love?

I think that Heroine's Quest and Quest for Infamy were wonderful gifts to the fan community. I would give my games away for free if I could afford to.

I cannot. We have programmers, artists, and musicians to pay. All of them - including Lori and me - could be working at more lucrative jobs. We're in this because we have a passion for it.

Does that mean that we ever have, or ever will, deliver a perfect game? Of course not! Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness, often considered the pinnacle of the QG series, was unplayable when it first shipped. It took Sierra a full year to re-release the game on CD with those amazing voices and fewer bugs. Not "no bugs," not even close. The game still crashes on fast systems as soon as players get out of the cave at the beginning. It crashes when fighting the cultists in the swamp. But most players today agree that it was a great game.

Oh, about that year to make a patch. This is the digital era. We were already working on the first patch to Hero-U before we released the game. At the moment, the patch will address the only verified crashing bug in Rogue to Redemption - clicking on Pyoter's plaque. We think we have a solution to the stuttering graphics that some players have reported, and that's the most important reason for a patch, so we won't launch it until that's verified. We're also reducing time expended in movement, and hopefully making an easier-to-read font for the journal.

Is the look of the game "2001"? That's one of the silliest things I've read. We had a thread on this several years ago in the Hero-U forum, and I asked the poster to point to examples of what he said were indie games with amazing graphics. He posted 3 or 4 examples that looked *terrible* - grungy, low-resolution, etc. I will admit that our game didn't look fantastic back then either, but it was light-years ahead of the supposed examples of beautiful games.

Since then, we've massively improved the look and feel of Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption, and we think it stands above many of our previous games. When you think about it, that's pretty amazing! Quest for Glory V: Dragon Fire cost $7 million to make in 2018 dollars. The graphics were deservedly panned. It sold 200,000 copies or so at $93 in today's money. That game, along with King's Quest: Mask of Eternity and Gabriel Knight III, helped bring down Sierra On-Line because it lost money. Sierra tried to give fans what they said they wanted, and it killed them.

Here we have a thread complaining that our current game, which sells at $31.50 currently - 1/3 the price of Quest for Glory IV or V - is ugly and too expensive. We think our game is as beautiful as we could make it, and *way* better looking than QGV on a fraction (about 20%) of the budget. We think that's a pretty darn good effort.

I could ask OP to list some indie games that look much better than ours. I know what will happen - he'll list a bunch of games that we think look terrible, along with some beautiful games with 1/10 the gameplay of Rogue to Redemption, and a few $50 million budget AAA titles.

Now personally, I find most of today's AAA games rather ugly. They're gritty, and nasty, as befits the gameplay in most of them. There are exceptions of course, but they are all way outside of our budget - we have no other games to fund this one.

Your mileage may vary, of course. If you don't take the time to get to know the characters and discover the story hidden throughout Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption, you won't find the game as exciting as an FPS. You won't be led by the hand through an adventure as I'm told happens in Telltale Games... which, by the way, are fantastic and lovely games. And you won't get the chance to see how we've taken our 1990s ideas into a 2010 - 2030 game series.

That's all fine. If you don't like the game, we understand that. We can't make a game that will appeal to everyone, and we don't have 8 figure budgets to make them movie-quality. But we can tell stories, and that's what we'll continue to do if we get enough support.
(I think this is the thread he's mentioning: http://hero-u.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=530&p=2896&hilit=indie+graphics#p2896 I was relieved to see that Primordia wasn't among the games that had "*terrible* - grungy, low-resolution" graphics!)

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/1733207382035281414/?ctp=3#c3160848559789355925

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559771983634/?ctp=5#c1710690018664923955
In comparison, I made a stupid estimate of one year and $400,000 to make a game. I was in good company doing that - the aforementioned Double Fine Adventure, SpaceVenture, Moebius, and several others had similar pitches. The game never could have been made in one year, even under ideal circumstances, so yes, that was a terrible estimate.

But all the rest of it? Not so bad. We had a lot of problems with turnover in the first two years, and that led to a number of revisions in the art style and interface. We essentially restarted development in 2015 after two wasted years of experiments that might have led to a finished game, but weren't good enough. So 3-1/2 years of real development, less than Sierra spent on Quest for Glory V. That game ended up costing $7 million in today's dollars. My budget was $800K, of which two Kickstarters supplied only $500K with the rest as expected out of pocket. And we went over that budget, but by a fraction compared to all the games I listed above.

I have two groups of players, one calling our game primitive and ugly, but a much larger group calling it beautiful. Lori and I subscribe to the latter group. We accomplished what we wanted to do with this game, and we think it's a very original and pretty darned good game. We're hearing that from players that take the time to get into it, too. Here's a recent post: "Thank you Lori and Corey, for creating what I consider to be the Game of the Year for 2018." I wouldn't go that far, but we have created a game worthy of standing next to any of our 1990s games.
Glad to see that the HELOC was only for $300k, not the higher figure I'd feared.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559780400041/#c3160848559784526511
Also, unlike the indie authors of Heroine's Quest and Quest for Infamy, Lori and I are on Activision's radar. If we made "just another Quest for Glory clone," they might consider it an infringement of their trademark and shut it down. Hero-U is a distinctly different game series partly because we are telling a different story and partly because we do not have the right to make another Quest for Glory game.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559771983634/?ctp=4#c3160848559783310641
This is our first game on Steam. I did not know that a discussion board existed. In any case, as the team is working hard to get a patch out for the game; and I'm handling about 300 emails a day with requests for GOG keys, email changes, and such; we haven't had a lot of time to get onto discussion forums including our own site.

That will improve somewhat after the first week after launch, but of course we'll also be working on more improvements to the game as well as console ports and additional games. Our customer support consists of one apparently-senile (per OP) game developer who is also running a company.

And yes, wayninja and Snake are being completely rude and out of line. You wonder why you aren't getting quality games? Maybe it's because you prefer to cut down people who have put their hearts, souls, and savings into making a game for you that isn't quite to your liking. Doesn't it ever make you wonder why most of the players are enjoying the game if it's so horrible? Or wonder why so many developers quit making games after fans sh*t on them? You're destroying what you say you love.
 

Barbarian

Arcane
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Messages
7,307
LoL just fucking LOL!!!!


12.png

The only proper woman and it is hidden...
:negative:
If i only knew i wouldn't have wasted my time on the retarded feminist pirate bitch.

PS:It is not a fucking tranny,just diversion.

If this game is full of trannies, faggots and "non-binarian freesexuals" then I ain't playing it.

And it breaks my heart because I loved the QfG games and wanted to support the coles. Is it really full of gay romance and brave trannies?
 

almondblight

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Messages
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The thing that's amusing is that U.S. gamers paid them over half a million bucks -- about a thousand such gamers shelling out $100+, and some madmen going up to $7,500 or $10,000.

On KS. I think they make a good point about the price, though. Even a lot of the people here who claim AoD/UnderRail/etc. is better than the average AAA game would probably be bothered if the price of those games was the same as AAA games.
 

fantadomat

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LoL just fucking LOL!!!!


12.png

The only proper woman and it is hidden...
:negative:
If i only knew i wouldn't have wasted my time on the retarded feminist pirate bitch.

PS:It is not a fucking tranny,just diversion.

If this game is full of trannies, faggots and "non-binarian freesexuals" then I ain't playing it.

And it breaks my heart because I loved the QfG games and wanted to support the coles. Is it really full of gay romance and brave trannies?
It is not full,there is one faggot but he is really likeable in a friends way. And there is this chick,she is not a tranny,but you can flirt with her while thinking that she a man,you can even tell her that you are disappointed because she turned out to be she. I never bothered flirting with the man in this game so i don't know how it ends up. The well written characters are maybe the best thing about the game,but there are some not so well written ones. Still it is filled with strong Independent women.
 
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DeepOcean

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Messages
7,394
If this game is full of trannies, faggots and "non-binarian freesexuals" then I ain't playing it.

And it breaks my heart because I loved the QfG games and wanted to support the coles. Is it really full of gay romance and brave trannies?
Don't worry that much, outside some remarks here and there from some female characters that could be interpreted as feminist pandering (To be honest, I've seen far more annoying feminist pandering on other games, this is quite tame in comparison) , the writing is really, really good and you wont see pink hair bitches screaming "It's men's fault" or other nonsense, the game is mostly free of political nonsense.
 

Martyr

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Bavaria
I'm gonna get a split personality because of this game! I can't decide on whether to buy it or not.
when I saw this getting released on gog I thought it was trash bc the art reminded me of hidden object games. then I read it was made by the people who developed QfG, so I wanted to insta-buy it. now I see some of those screenshots with feminists, skeletal justice warriors and a girl (?!) with a mustache and this left such a bad impression on me. I can't make up my mind about this stupid game, what am I going to do ????
:negative:
 

Morkar Left

Guest
Some interesting posts from the Coles, with good QFG lore and also some hard truths about being a developer. I find myself liking the Coles even more after reading them -- there's a very noble, quixotic quality to the posts, making clear the Coles came from a different era and are trying to still capture the joy of games back then, even if it may not have panned out.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559771983634/?ctp=4#c3160848559784342649
Since then, we've massively improved the look and feel of Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption, and we think it stands above many of our previous games. When you think about it, that's pretty amazing! Quest for Glory V: Dragon Fire cost $7 million to make in 2018 dollars. The graphics were deservedly panned. It sold 200,000 copies or so at $93 in today's money. That game, along with King's Quest: Mask of Eternity and Gabriel Knight III, helped bring down Sierra On-Line because it lost money. Sierra tried to give fans what they said they wanted, and it killed them.

200,000 x $93 = 18,600,000 and development costs were $7 millions. How did it help then to bring Sierra down? It was a success by that numbers...
 

fantadomat

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I'm gonna get a split personality because of this game! I can't decide on whether to buy it or not.
when I saw this getting released on gog I thought it was trash bc the art reminded me of hidden object games. then I read it was made by the people who developed QfG, so I wanted to insta-buy it. now I see some of those screenshots with feminists, skeletal justice warriors and a girl (?!) with a mustache and this left such a bad impression on me. I can't make up my mind about this stupid game, what am I going to do ????
:negative:
Well those screenshots are more of in game jokes,the game is not heavy sjw shit. There is a little bit of feminism in it,but it feels like the old school one. There is diversity but it is not that much annoying,i just ignored such characters. The gay guy was pretty well written,it never come out,it felt like talking with real gay,you recognise him by his manners not by him telling you. Most characters are pretty well written, The boring part is the moving speed and the endless grind for totally useless skills,adventuring was fun except the catacombs.

To be honest now that i think about it i can't in good conscience give you a recommendation. If you are really starving for a adventure kind of game and can tolerate not too annoying sjw shit,maybe. I wouldn't have been happy if had paid 30 euro for the game. Maybe wait for a sail or pirate it and if you like it buy it.
 

Martyr

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[
Well those screenshots are more of in game jokes,the game is not heavy sjw shit. There is a little bit of feminism in it,but it feels like the old school one. There is diversity but it is not that much annoying,i just ignored such characters. The gay guy was pretty well written,it never come out,it felt like talking with real gay,you recognise him by his manners not by him telling you. Most characters are pretty well written, The boring part is the moving speed and the endless grind for totally useless skills,adventuring was fun except the catacombs.

To be honest now that i think about it i can't in good conscience give you a recommendation. If you are really starving for a adventure kind of game and can tolerate not too annoying sjw shit,maybe. I wouldn't have been happy if had paid 30 euro for the game. Maybe wait for a sail or pirate it and if you like it buy it.
looking at those screenshots I feel like these are the kind of jokes that can completely ruin a game. but if you say that they're just a minor annoyance, I'll believe it.
I can't pirate games because I don't know where and how xD I'm thinking about buying the gog version, but if you don't recommend it for that price I guess I'll just wait ....
 
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Some interesting posts from the Coles, with good QFG lore and also some hard truths about being a developer. I find myself liking the Coles even more after reading them -- there's a very noble, quixotic quality to the posts, making clear the Coles came from a different era and are trying to still capture the joy of games back then, even if it may not have panned out.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/375440/discussions/0/3160848559771983634/?ctp=4#c3160848559784342649
Since then, we've massively improved the look and feel of Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption, and we think it stands above many of our previous games. When you think about it, that's pretty amazing! Quest for Glory V: Dragon Fire cost $7 million to make in 2018 dollars. The graphics were deservedly panned. It sold 200,000 copies or so at $93 in today's money. That game, along with King's Quest: Mask of Eternity and Gabriel Knight III, helped bring down Sierra On-Line because it lost money. Sierra tried to give fans what they said they wanted, and it killed them.

200,000 x $93 = 18,600,000 and development costs were $7 millions. How did it help then to bring Sierra down? It was a success by that numbers...


$7mil was likely only dev cost, not marketing or packaging, and you’re also forgetting about the cut brick and mortar would have taken on any sale (~%45 I think?). Plus there’s no indication as to how long QFGV took to sell 200k copies (games stayed at full price much longer then than they do now), and there’s also no indication how many copies of QFGV SIerra Online initially sold-in to brick and mortars; if they sold-in 1 million copies and only ended up getting 200k of them into consumers hands that is a massive amount of money down the drain.
 

jfrisby

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong
200,000 x $93 = 18,600,000 and development costs were $7 millions. How did it help then to bring Sierra down? It was a success by that numbers...

You used their '2018-inflation' price of $93, which was more like $59 back then.. So probably more like $11-12m gross.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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When you factor the cut taken by B&M stores it was probably a losing venture. If you can't even cover development costs, a studio has to close, especially if in addition to not making money, a game destroys a brand's good will. If I were Sierra, I would take the combination of QFGV and KQ8 as decisive proof that the studio's flagship adventure properties could no longer be developed into viable games.

Incidentally, I realized I forgot to quote the Hero-U forum post I linked to, which itself has a fascinating bit of content:
Corey Cole said:
If we had a crystal ball during the Kickstarter to see what would happen, I'd have dumped Unity and used something like AGS or Visionaire to make the game in 2D. There would be no animated characters (maybe Shawn walking around, and that's it) since we never managed to find a strong 2D animator for the team. The game would be lovely (JP's paintings used directly for backgrounds) but completely static. I don't think it would have been as good, but we'd have saved tons of money and time.

Given that we're using Unity and could not get 2D animation to look right in the engine, we have the absolutely best game from an art viewpoint that we can make. I think that Fez and Project Zomboid (while perfectly appropriate for those projects) look terrible next to Hero-U. As do the pixellated Quest for Glory screen shots. Diablo has decent backgrounds, but our characters look better.

Oh well, to each their own. We are making Hero-U look as beautiful as we can, and we think it's pretty darn good. The magic of the game will come from the writing. This is a very text-intensive game, with the graphics serving as backdrops for conversations and interactions. Even combat has a strong text element, although it also looks awesome with the closeup 3D monsters and effects.
There are a few things I'd note here:
(1) "I'd have dumped Unity and used something like AGS or Visionaire to make the game in 2D. There would be no animated characters (maybe Shawn walking around, and that's it) since we never managed to find a strong 2D animator for the team. The game would be lovely (JP's paintings used directly for backgrounds) but completely static." The notion that for $600k you cannot make an AGS game with animated characters -- maybe an animated protagonist? -- is extraordinary. Forget all of the one-shot developers along the way (like us!): just take WEG, where Dave is able to make his beautiful games paying his animator ~$30k/year (I think that was the figure I read online at some point). I mean, this is really crazy.

(2) "Given that we're using Unity and could not get 2D animation to look right in the engine"? You can definitely make a beautifully animated 2D adventure game in Unity: https://connect.unity.com/p/games-milkmaid-of-the-milky-way

(3) "Diablo has decent backgrounds, but our characters look better." O.O

Anyway, having started my march down this road, I kind of want to write another "The Fanatic and His RPG" about Hero-U. Tentative title is "They Wanted to Be Heroes." But maybe Digital Antiquarian has already covered that ground well enough: https://www.filfre.net/2016/09/so-you-want-to-be-a-hero/

--EDIT--
Maybe I'm in too deep, but looking at the Digital Antiquarian article, I'm kind of feeling like Shawn was designed on a young Lori Cole.

Compare.jpg


Obviously it's not a perfect match -- Shawn's chin is sharper, lips are more made up, and eyebrows are more styled, but still...
 
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