What makes an RPG matter?

[Strange Fellow]

I agree that a game with an engaging story, setting, and characters will be considered a good RPG. What the fuck is the other way around?

My point is that the popularity of those games don't prove that RPGs with different strengths are worse by default. I can think that both Fallout and Pool of Radiance are great RPGs, and thinking that the former is great does not devalue the strengths of the latter.

You didn't make a point, you just said that you disagree.

That's because I think we're at a standstill here. We obviously have very different opinions on what constitutes a good RPG.

 

[Zombra]

What the fuck is the other way around? My whole point is that a game that only has these things, with gameplay, character creation, C&C, and graphics that are passable enough to facilitate these things are good. Everything else is secondary.

Ehh. In essence, you're saying that good story is a sufficient condition to make an RPG good. That does not make it a necessary condition, or render anything else secondary. I don't remember anyone ever praising the brilliant story of Wizardry 8, but it's regarded as a good RPG.

 

[ItsChon]

-snip-

-snip-

Fair enough to both of you. Perhaps I should have amended my post to say that the best RPG's have great characters, stories, and setting. I'm willing to accept that there are some RPG's that do one to all three of those things at a subpar level, but are still good enough in all the other levels of what makes a game function to be considered "good". I just think that those RPG's pale in comparison to the RPG greats.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I didn't think Arcanum had a great story, actually. It was good until the hippie elves showed up.

 

[Bocian]

Memorable characters (not just your own) are such an essential part of the experience, and they're one of the main reasons why we become nostalgic about RPGs.

I guess that's part of the story option.
And why the hell can't we see who voted what?

 

[Yosharian]

All of these things are more or less equally important, with caveats that some people place greater emphasis on some of them over others. For some, it's better to have good C&C, for others, complex combat.

You can't define 'what makes an RPG matter' in the sense of which elements matter over others, because that differs from person to person. Ultimately, all of these elements matter.

I will say one personal pet peeve of mine is that sound is terribly underdeveloped these days. Music, sound effects, voice acting, it's all very frequently utter trash, and for me it's a hugely important to creating a memorable game.

And it's my opinion that creating a memorable game is more important than anything else, in the end. The joy of playing through a game is one thing, but if the game is forgotten the moment it is completed, what has truly been achieved? Nothing but fleeting joy.

If you look at the greats, they all have excellent sound in one way or another. Fallout's music, for example, is truly great.

 

[King Crispy]

You can't define 'what makes an RPG matter' in the sense of which elements matter over others, because that differs from person to person.

But what you can do is to conduct a poll to see where popular opinion lies. Therein can be found insight. Hence, this thread.

 

[Dodo1610]

Shouldn't it be the role-playing? In a good CRPG you should be able to play the game with the character you create at beginning from start to finish without doing something extremely out of character.

 

[King Crispy]

Roleplaying? In my roleplaying game?!?

 

[Yosharian]

You can't define 'what makes an RPG matter' in the sense of which elements matter over others, because that differs from person to person.

But what you can do is to conduct a poll to see where popular opinion lies. Therein can be found insight. Hence, this thread.

Yes, but my point is, a great RPG most, or all, of these elements in order to be truly great.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Role-playing developed from squad-based tactical miniatures wargaming, by reducing the level of control of each player to a single player-character who was maintained through multiple sessions of gameplay, and by expanding the environment from the battlefield to dungeons and an overworld that would be explored by the players. The resulting character-related aspects of RPGs included not only initial character creation/customization but also character progression by gaining levels through experience, equipment that would be replaced by superior equipment discovered through gameplay (thus mimicking character progression), and items that would become more numerous and powerful over the course of gameplay (thus also mimicking character progression). Since the options as stated include solely "Excellent character creation", without regard to the other character-related factors, I did not select this option, but did select "Exploration and the discovery of the unknown" and "Deep and challenging combat". Any RPG with good exploration and combat will thereby possess an "overall fun factor", so this option is superfluous. Story-based "Meaningful choices and the consequences of those choices" are irrelevant to RPGs, while gameplay-based C&C will follow from having good exploration, combat, and character-related aspects. "Attractive graphics and pleasant sound" are preferable but not fundamental, and "A storyline that is well-written and intelligent" (or any storyline at all!) is unnecessary for an RPG.

 

[Ventidius]

Zed Duke of Banville

Not only do I agree that exploration and combat are de facto central to RPG gameplay, in some threads I have insisted on it:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...on-of-an-rpg-redux.122032/page-2#post-5630882

However, the way in which those two factors are central is not as conceptually straightforward as that of character systematization is, which is why the latter got the emphasis in my post. A more nuanced version of my view on this is outlined in the above thread.

EDIT: note that the relevant discussion in the linked post is in the response to the second quote in particular.

 

[Sigourn]

The poll is kind of stupid. I want all of them in an RPG, but none of them by themselves will do.

I MUST have a fun RPG with attractive graphics and pleasant sound. The poll specifically uses the words "attractive" and "pleasant", which shouldn't be translated to "2018 graphics and 2018 sound". Your average JRPG from the early 90s (which has a lower graphic fidelity than something like Fallout) is more than enough for me: it has attractive graphics and pleasant sound. The "fun" part is self-explanatory.

Then we have

- Exploration and the discovery of the unknown
- Meaningful choices and the consequences of those choices
- Excellent character creation
- Deep and challenging combat

Thing is, neither of them are enough by themselves. I require a mix of them, for instance:

- Exploration with meaningful choices.
- Great combat with good character creation.
- Great choices with good character creation.
- Exploration with good combat. Even then, this still wouldn't make a good RPG, just an enjoyable game.

Etc. The only thing I didn't vote was a good story. Most RPGs I have played have fairly mediocre stories, or extremely convoluted ones. So that's definitely one thing I do not NEED in my RPGs (though it is nice to have it). Same with the socio political links, like Deus Ex: nice to have, but by no means a necessity.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

Select which components matter to you most in an RPG that makes it significant and meaningful or otherwise "good".

Please only select which items matter to you the most.

The same thing as any video game. Good gameplay. Good story is a huge plus. Good story with bad gameplay is also acceptable, but virtually non-existent these days (maybe I should give Tides of Numanuma a run?)

Oh, but wait, you will ask. The game may have good gameplay/story, but is it an RPG!?!?!

Who cares, I say. I enjoy playing it, and that's all that matters.

 

[Ellef]

Ban Crispy for making a hidden vote poll.

 

[frajaq]

I voted for fun because at the end of the day what the fuck else are we even playing video gaymes for. Maybe it shouldn't even be an option in the poll, because we derive the fun from the other options in it.

 

[Roguey]

None of these things matter to me anymore.

 

[Wunderbar]

Lol at the way king comrade option was made undesirable.

 

[Bester]

Do you agree with his statement that C&C has never mattered?

Interesting.

Let's take BG2 as an example, since it barely has any C&C. Like, you can side with Bordi or Dark Thieves and you still get shipped to Irenaeus. It's shit, isn't it? Then take POE2 - it had so much C&C, I couldn't stop playing, like I could refuse to go back to earth and I'd just die, instant C&C. My brother even yelled at me to stop playing, but I wouldn't lmao. I think you can see which game is superior and why. No C&C - no game.

 

[Shadenuat]

It all begins with one thing, character creation. How game reacts to your character(s) defines gameplay. So that's the most important part.

 

[Neanderthal]

Romances.

Spoiler

 

[Cael]

Good, absorbing story that makes you want to "keep turning the pages", so to speak.

Anything else is secondary, really, but exploring what the game has in store for you is also a good reason to keep playing. This is really tied in to the first reason.

A distant third (which is why I didn't bother voting for it) is good character creation where your choices matter but does not dominate. IWD2 Targos is a fairly good example. Different classes, even races, have different ways of solving quests, but in the greater scheme of the whole game, it really doesn't matter. DA:O also has shades of this with different origins having different dialogue choices, even quests, but at the end of the day, doesn't really impact the main quest or game all that much.

Everything else is really in the "good to have but don't bust a gut aiming for" category.

 

[Ranarama]

Actually, it's just any game in which you play a role.

For instance here, in the excellent RPG, FIFA 14, I'm playing the role of some european gaylords:

 

[Alkarl]

Formula for a good crpg:

Character development which fuels both combat and exploration

C&C, the way it is usually tossed around, is storyfaggotry at it's most inane. It's most often used to change whatever hats all your friends will be wearing in the final battle or some ending slide that reads more like an epitaph than anything else. "Johnny came to town and helped the people figure out how legs work so they could walk around and not die of stuff. Overall, Johnny wasn't a cunt." etc.

Games like Fallout, Dragon Age: Origins, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum; all great games, that were loaded with seemingly interesting choices, not so much consequence though.

C&C is, ultimately, an industry buzzword that certain dev studios and their publishers will use to sell you a lie, and probably a shitty game too. "You matter!", yeah, but not really.

 

[Kev Inkline]

What does one life matter?