Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

What makes an RPG matter?

What components in an RPG are most important? (not presented below in any particular order)

  • Excellent character creation

  • Exploration and the discovery of the unknown

  • Its overall fun factor

  • Meaningful choices and the consequences of those choices

  • Attractive graphics and pleasant sound

  • Deep and challenging combat

  • A storyline that is well-written and intelligent

  • Social or socio-political tie-ins to the real world and the challenges we face today (kc)


Results are only viewable after voting.
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
To clarify - what is C&C referring to here?

Is it purely a branching storyline from character quest and story choices that gives the player a unique playing experience, or is C&C also quests and outcomes limited by character race/class/sex/alignment?

Which means.... let's define "C&C" first
:negative:
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
The best games are the ones with an interesting setting, characters, and narrative that keeps me thinking about it long after the game. I'm sorry, but I don't really give a fuck how "fun" a game is mechanically, because that shit is always going to be more boring then hanging out with friends, working out, athletics, etc. Because of that, a game that focuses on being fun with its mechanics, is always going to take a back seat for me in life and in memory. Games that make me think however, stories and characters that fascinate me and make me want to make me learn more about them, that's the kind of shit that makes me text "I'm busy" to invites, or skip out on a workout. Of course, it's important that the game is fun and the graphics are good enough to facilitate my enjoyment of the story, but those are just there to facilitate the story.

Even in Underrail, a game I love and one that nails the combat, I'd often try to avoid it and was focused on advancing the story/quest. Yeah, it's satisfying when you finally beat that tough encounter, but it was always just something that I had to do so I could advance the story.

Call me a story fag, I don't give a fuck.

Lol. Athletics, working out? Sorry bro but how is that more "fun" than videogames. If im going to do some repetitive activity might as well be blowing shit up in spectacular ways, saving the world, solving quests etc. Provided these are good of course.
 
Last edited:

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,013
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Voted exploration. I find that that is the only option on the list which by itself is enough to make a game good. A game with only good combat doesn't do it for me, neither does only writing, only c&c, only chargen... But if a game nails the feeling of exploring the unknown and rewards curiosity, then it can be something really special despite not excelling at anything else.
 

Cosmo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,387
Project: Eternity
Select which components matter to you most in an RPG that makes it significant and meaningful or otherwise "good".

Please only select which items matter to you the most.

Crpgs are composed by so many systems (what you called "components") that their quality wlll always be determined at some degree by the interactions and synergies between them.
So yeah your poll is useless, and your post a failure.
 
Last edited:

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,560
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
I suppose I could try to remake the poll giving the choices as these so-called "synergies" of yours.

Care to list some examples?
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
It should probably named "enjoyment factor" instead. But what someone enjoys is also very much subjective.
Obviously we need to define what is "enjoyable" first...
 

Swampy_Merkin

Learned
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
478
Location
Up Yours!
As a serious Codexer you are not allowed to have fun or enjoyment while operating your CRPGs. You must dissect them ruthlessly until all possible joy has been sucked from the experience.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
Historical context in its placement among the role-playing hobby, against a prevailing market climate.

If a faithful Dungeons & Dragons computer adaptation was released today, with tactical combat, appropriate party mechanics and elevation of rules-based gameplay, it would matter because such a design approach would fly in the face of what is expected by mainstream standards. Such a game would leave its mark, whether or not it is loved by critics and players.
 

Cosmo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,387
Project: Eternity
I suppose I could try to remake the poll giving the choices as these so-called "synergies" of yours.

Care to list some examples?

By definition those would only prove that they can be established on a case by case basis, when you yourself are looking for criteria.
Also none of the elements you chose are specific to RPGs (and you'd want them to define their quality :roll:), and what's more you mix up anything and everything, in a moronic hodgepodge that only serves to conflate function and presentation, subjective elements and objective ones, without rhyme nor reason.
 

Ventidius

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
552
The essential feature of RPGs that sets it apart from other kinds of games is character systematization, here understood as a systemic matrix that allows for the creation, development, and expression of diverse and discrete character configurations. The latter need not be understood necessarily as corresponding primarily to personality traits (such as roguish or heroic) as they can be in story-oriented CnC games, but can also denote diverse combat roles (such as healer, sniper, or debuffer) as they do in dungeon crawlers and tactical RPGs. One could attach such a system to any kind of gameplay, from dialogue-driven, to abstract turn-based tactical, to even real-time action and exploration. Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, Morrowind, and Age of Decadence can all easily be considered instances of RPGs per this definition, so it is intuitive as well as coherent. What matters is that there is a sufficiently robust character system present that allows for enough variety in roleplaying.

In order to clarify this last point, we should distinguish between the three layers that such systems have: concept, build, and role. The concept is the symbolic part, that which denotes the sort of archetype that the character expresses. Typical character concepts in RPGs include the barbarian, thief, ninja, samurai, paladin, and druid archetypes. This aspect can be reinforced by itemization, especially in games with developed visual representation where certain types of equipment can help a character "look the part", such as katanas for samurai and whatnot. Even though this is the 'flavor' part, it can be found even in very abstract games like Wizardry.

Build refers to the statistical and mathematical aspect of character customization: the scores in different categories such as attributes and skills. It is not always dominated by scores, but also includes binary "perks" or "feats" that allow certain characters to do certain things that others simply can't, these can be active or passive. This layer represents the abstract quantitative aspect of the character system, and is to be found even in real-time and action RPGs. These systems can be interfaced in granular or integrated ways, in other words, they can be like that of Fallout and permit you to micromanage the details of your build throughout the game by picking perks and investing points in skill scores, or they can be like AD&D and early Wizardry and allow you to pick classes that come mostly "bundled" with a predetermined set of feats, passives, and scores/score advancement tables. Multiclassing and dual classing can make them a bit more micro-intensive, but rarely as much as granular systems. Both approaches to interfacing character build can be good depending on the context of the overall game design.

There is then the role system which denotes the actual gameplay possibilities and capacities open to different characters. In turn-based tactical games, this is often expressed in the form of different tactical roles like sniper, tank, buffer/debuffer, healer, etc. The typical MMO triad of tank/DPS/healer comes to mind, but it should be noted that MMOs are usually very impoverished in this regard compared to proper cRPGs which often offer many more possibilities for tactical roles. Action RPGs, immersive sims, and interactive sandboxes often also provide for the expression of roles in terms of mechanics built into the physics engine which can go beyond merely offering different styles of combat, but can include things such as stealth and physical interaction during exploration such as those offered through a variety of spells like Levitate and Mark/Recall in Morrowind, or the psionics in System Shock 2.

A good RPG is one in which the three layers of the character system are properly structured and interlaced with each other and the corresponding gameplay systems, while also providing sufficient diversity in character options across the layers. This may result in emphasis or de-emphasis of one of these aspects or the other, not to mention different ways of interconnecting them as the game's design principles may require.

With all of that said, it should also be noted that there have been, historically, many other properties that have been linked to quality RPG gameplay, like tactical combat and dungeon or overworld exploration, and I think that such elements, though not essential per se, are often in practice very important for a quality RPG, even if its essential nature also allows for many untapped possibilities for experimentation.
 
Last edited:

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Lhynn isn't wrong. I like to have elements of C&C, but is it necessary? No. Not at all.

Do you agree with his statement that C&C has never mattered?
Eeeeeeeeeeh, it really depends.

I mean, has it necessarily mattered in order for an otherwise bad game to be good or in order for something to qualify as being an RPG? No.
Has it mattered in making certain games better than they would've been without that C&C? Yes, I think that's obvious.

The recent Tyranny is a good example. It has terrible C&C in general, but the C&C that it does have (namely the invasion) is actually very well made and is what elevates the game from bad to mediocre.

So I would say that it has mattered, just not in the way I think Lhynn meant it when he made that statement (e.g. whether it has anything to do with whether something is a good RPG or even is an RPG at it's core).
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,538
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
My top two (I also voted for fun)

Excellent character creation
Meaningful choices and the consequences of those choices

These two things are important in how they interact. Let me explain a bit.
tldr.png


I don't mean that choice & consequence is important in terms of "I chose to recruit the nurse so she wasn't there to protect the orphanage later so it burned down." Story c&c is nice of course but completely unnecessary to a good RPG (or one that "matters", whatever that means). Decision making is nice in any kind of game and RPGs don't have some kind of special claim here.

In an RPG, choice & consequence matters most in terms of, and should be inextricable from, excellent character creation.

To me ←important, the defining thing about RPGs is that the player builds his own game piece(s), and the capabilities of those custom-built pieces define how challenges can be overcome. A story may be completely linear, yet a bulletproof character will progress through it differently than one who is great at climbing walls.
 
Last edited:

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
I suppose I could try to remake the poll giving the choices as these so-called "synergies" of yours.
Care to list some examples?
Crispy. I think that you touch the topic with the wrong attitude. I recommend to broaden your perspective on this matter, is to play the following games: BT1, U4-7, WL1, DW, PoR, DS 1 and DL.
And from there make yourself the thoughts when does C&C matter and where it doesn't. If you understand in which context C&C matters and its extend then this entire thread doesn't matter.
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,381
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Nice bait.
When you’re on the internet discussing video games it is really important to signal that you are above such juvenile activities as playing video games
The point of bringing up IRL shit wasn't to signal that I'm above "video games", but to give a reason as to why an engaging story, characters, and setting are what makes a game matter. There are plenty of games I play that aren't story based and are focused on just the gameplay aspect such as some shooters and mobas. Those aren't the games that come to mind when I'm asked what my favorite games are though.

I'd also like to note that there have been plenty of games with excellent character creation, as well as meaningful C&C for actions that have fallen flat on their face. None of those things matter if the story, setting, and characters in the game you're playing are boring/shit. There are some games with shit story, setting, and characters that people will play all the way through and even enjoy because the mechanical gameplay part of the game is solid. And that's fine. But those games aren't brought up in anyone's top ten lists, nor are they really remembered as fondly as other games. Contrast that with something like the Fallout series, or Arcanum, or PS:T, or pretty much any of the classic games heralded on the Codex. These are games where the actual gameplay and graphics and character customization even are subpar in many aspects. They're still considered great because of the world and story that they tell.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,876,560
Location
Future Wasteland
Strap Yourselves In
I'd also like to note that there have been plenty of games with excellent character creation, as well as meaningful C&C for actions that have fallen flat on their face. None of those things matter if the story, setting, and characters in the game you're playing are boring/shit.

I wouldn't disagree with this if I could think of any games it applies to.
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,381
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So you're saying that the things that matter most in RPGs are the same exact things that matter most in any game? Honest question.
There are plenty of games that take the opposite approach to what I'm suggesting, and focus on the gameplay aspect versus the story. Games that are wildly successful might I add. Assassins Creed, FPS's, Dark Souls series, God of War, fighting games, RTS's, etc. I really love playing some fighting games, and I did and still sometimes do enjoy just turning my brain off and playing a first person shooter for thirty minutes to an hour. There are also games like EU3, or any of the other RTS's that focus on the strategy of management of civilizations and armies that have nothing to do with main stories, characters, and only a little to do with setting. These are games that are good in their own right, and I do sometimes play these games. But when we're talking about RPG's and what makes them matter, all of these things come secondary to the things that I mentioned in my previous post. Not all games are created with the same purpose, so the things I say matter in a RPG don't matter i many other games.
Absolutely disagree with pretty much everything you just said ItsChon
Disagreement without an argument is irrelevant.
I wouldn't disagree with this if I could think of any games it applies to.
Off the top of my head, nothing comes to mind either. Maybe Fallout 3? I hate most blobbers though, so eh.

The thing that is important though, isn't whether or not we can figure out whether there has been a game that fulfills this exact criteria, but the fact that we recognize something like this is possible. The image of the shoutbox that you linked is a good example. Would PoE 2 be a good game if you added some C&C? I can accept the argument that it'd be better, but I don't think anyone would go so far ass to venture and say it's a good game. My whole point is that a game without an engaging story, setting, and characters, will not be considered an amazing RPG; even if the other things that you've added to your poll are touched upon. Games like the Fallout series, PS:T, Arcanum, and others, prove this point.
 

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,866,294
Location
Anytown, USA
Honestly I think C&C should be clarified into whether it refers purely to story C&C or to systemic C&C. In any event, I say C&C, chargen/chardev, exploration, combat and fun factor matter most not necessarily in that order.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,013
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Disagreement without an argument is irrelevant.
I hate most blobbers though, so eh.
It's really hard to argue with this. You're a storyfag, I'm not. What can I say?
My whole point is that a game without an engaging story, setting, and characters, will not be considered an amazing RPG; even if the other things that you've added to your poll are touched upon. Games like the Fallout series, PS:T, Arcanum, and others, prove this point.
No, they prove that a game WITH an engaging story, setting, and characters WILL be considered an amazing RPG by a majority of posters on RPG Codex. Not the other way around.
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,381
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
No, they prove that a game WITH an engaging story, setting, and characters will be considered an amazing RPG by a majority of posters on RPG Codex. Not the other way around.
Reread what you just said, and understand that it makes no fucking sense. I agree that a game with an engaging story, setting, and characters will be considered a good RPG. What the fuck is the other way around? My whole point is that a game that only has these things, with gameplay, character creation, C&C, and graphics that are passable enough to facilitate these things are good. That's my only point. That the three things I highlighted are the most important things in making a RPG matter, everything else is secondary. You didn't make a point, you just said that you disagree.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom