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Fallout What in the Hell could redeem a system like VATS?

Lurker47

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Let's say it's a purely single-player game and VATS works like it did in 3 or New Vegas. How would you make that kind of system even remotely skill-based and useful? If you can aim well, there's virtually no reason to use VATs (besides perks that artificially increase its usefulness).

If you base your play-style around VATS, what the Hell are you even doing? Getting into normal firefights and occasionally hitting V?

76 sure had an answer by just making it autoaim but I don't like to think of obviously degenerative game design.
 

Fargus

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Nothing. Vats is shit and basically a useless targeting system, nothing more. It belongs in the trash. It was worthless in F3 (just like the game itself), and in NV i only used it for unique melee\unarmed attacks and sometimes for throwing grenades.
 

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It's useful at close range when you're finding it hard or don't want to bother with keeping your gun trained on enemies that are fidgeting around. Remember also that it's harder to aim precisely on console.
 

Moonrise

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Competence in RPGs reflects character skill, not player skill. I'm not good at FPS games, but it shouldn't matter because my character is good at shooting things. That's where VATS comes in. Do you also expect me to literally remove Caesar's tumor?
 

Lurker47

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Competence in RPGs reflects character skill, not player skill. I'm not good at FPS games, but it shouldn't matter because my character is good at shooting things. That's where VATS comes in. Do you also expect me to literally remove Caesar's tumor?
It's still useless.
 

FeelTheRads

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Useful or not, it's some of the worst garbage invented. There's nothing that can save it.

And no, the violence doesn't excuse it because, like with everything else, Bethesda got it wrong and instead of making it cool and satisfying it's just boring and stupid.

Bloodlines did special deaths much better in 3D. Fallout 3 is just generic gibs in slow-motion.

Fuck, Bethesda really sucks at everything.
 

King Crispy

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If you're going to play a game like Fallout 3/4 or Fallout: New Vegas, ones that claim to be RPGs but are actually action shooters, then you have a choice to make.

- Do you accept the claim that they're RPGs, thus foregoing the real-time, first person shooting mechanics and instead relying on VATS because it reflects your character's skill with firearms and combat in general as opposed to your twitch skills as a person playing a game?

- Or do you deny that claim and forego VATS because you think it's a horrible idea and you just don't like it?

One way you're validating Bethesda's claim, the other way you're abandoning your love of RPGs.

Have fun.
 

Feyd Rautha

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I remember using it all the time since it saves some ammo. In Fallout 3 VATS was simply a god mode. Which was somewhat nice if you don't care about the shitty combat
 
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Though I hated its implementation and seldom used it, I think VATS is fine on its own as a framework. It is basically sort of like turn-based blobber combat made "flashier".

How to fix it?

- In FO3+, it is sort of a "power-up" gimmick that needs to be "recharged" in real-time to be able to use it. This is stupid, obviously.

- It should actually pause everything, instead of only slowing things down.

- That the actions of PC and the enemies are simultaneous is ok but needs to be better regulated.

- Introduce in-VATS PC movement.

Come to think of it, a proper TB VATS system could improve FO3+ a great deal.
 

FeelTheRads

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Why are you so hung up on its usefulness? It was already explained why it's useful, and actually pretty much a cheat, over just shooting.

The problem with it is that it's an absolute shit system, not how useful it is.
 
Last edited:

Daemongar

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Since I always reckoned that VATS was based off of M&M6 combat mode, I could stomach it better. The problems with VATS are great:
* You always shoot first when going into VATS. Gives you 3-4 quick shots without return fire.
* Really don't seem to miss all that often.
* A little too easy to decapitate enemies.
* Seems ridiculous for grenades

I suppose the following would help VATs
* RNG for initiative. Roll VATs combat like turn based D&D - if I win, I shoot, enemy shoots, or some manner based on agility and weapon speed
* To hit chance a little more balanced between me and enemy - I am pretty sure that 1 in every 2 shots on a raider in FO3 resulted in the raiders head popping off. Same with the Fiends in FONV. Reduce the chance to pull off head shots or one-shot kills, unless a feat is taken
* Movement in VATS - that is, instead of only combat, do it like MM6 and allow the player to take a big step back or to the side or whatever. (what cherry blossom said). Melee enemies would also do the same.

I have played FONV with the vision of never turning on VATs, but eventually I get tired of missing scrubs and turn it on to get things out of the way or pause combat. It makes combat painfully easy and every slow motion kill that required no effort is brutal on the senses.
 

Tigranes

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Dumbfucks excusing vats, seriously?

It completely destroyed any sense of player or character skill, due to how you could freely switch into a very generous superpower alternative mode that also seemed pretty buggy and randomshit. For some reason how critters moved and acted RT had no correspondence to their relative speeds in VATS, where you'd suddenly fire like Max Payne and enemies would barely do a thing. It was a masturbatory 'oh god I am so kewl' bullet time mixed with totally incoherent number systems.

Systems-wise it would have to become more of an actual turn-based system like some others have proposed, but I'm not sure that would end up so much better than a shittier version of Arcanum's RT/TB switch. It would be horribly unbalanced, playing on TB all the time would give you a very shitty TB experience.

The primary purpose of vats was to obscure the combat in so much random and fucked up kewl godmode that it was harder for people to tell just how awful the gunplay was.
 

King Crispy

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Tigranes, you must be implying that non-use of VATS in these games still somehow represents your character's (not your) skills in combat according to his stats, right?

You do realize that these games feature ammunition that when fired actually follows an impossible curve to hit your target in order to make up for the fact that they're in real time and thus cannot represent your character's skills, right?

So which is more retarded?
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Fallout: New Vegas would have been improved by removing the ability to attack outside of VATS, thus forcing the player to be reliant on a system determined by the player-character's abilities rather than the player's physical skill at FPS gameplay. Of course, the implementation of VATS also needed improvement, as it grants several bonuses to the player, as pointed out in some of the above posts.
 

Lurker47

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You do realize that these games feature ammunition that when fired actually follows an impossible curve to hit your target in order to make up for the fact that they're in real time and thus cannot represent your character's skills, right?
I think it actually worked in reverse. I never saw an example of it being overly generous based on skill. If your skill was lower, accurate shots would just miss so this
thus forcing the player to be reliant on a system determined by the player-character's abilities rather than the player's physical skill at FPS gameplay.
Is a bit inaccurate.
 

Sigourn

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V.A.T.S. should be reworked into "bullet time" and call it a day, because that is as good as it gets while still making sense in an FPS.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
it reflects your character's skill with firearms and combat in general as opposed to your twitch skills as a person playing a game?

No such thing as "as opposed to", your definition of RPG is retarded. A "game" with no player skill is a movie, not a game.
 

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