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Unreal Turns 20 Years Old

skacky

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Most of Myscha's maps are my favorites. I think he was the overall most consistent level designer on Unreal: great vision and usually great execution. There are aversions to this (the ISV-Kran is great on paper but playing it isn't that great at times).
I've always been very very impressed with Juan Eekels' maps overall. They tended to be less detailed than others — I believe that was because he was brought in as an extra designer a bit late in the project, but they all had insane scope as well (even more so than Myscha's).
Shane Caudle is quite the unsung designer, who only made great maps (Nali Castle in particular). Jeremy War's maps were pretty good too.
CliffyB's maps are relatively unremarkable in Unreal compared to his UT levels, with the exception of Vortex Rikers. Same goes for Eenocks (Inoxx), even if I do quite like the Mothership as a whole. Terraniux is a chore though. Apparently Nexus and Cryox would've been even more confusing/annoying.
 

DraQ

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The layouts were good, but everything was just a generic techcorridor, complete with overwhelming amount of crates. Almost like single level stretched out into an entire game.

You can say the same hyperbole of Quake 1 though. Each episode starts with one or two techbase levels, then the rest are medieval grimdark, with an overwhelming amount of stone.
That's a semi-valid criticism. Yes, Q1 is not particularly diverse, although here are several distinct themes to Q1 levels. Admittedly Q2 also changes in style as you progress through the game, although I would argue that hi-tech and less abstract approach to locations weakens potential of theme-based approach to design.
However, it's not that lack of diversity is in itself crippling. If Q2 had gripping gameplay or focused more on building the atmosphere (and that includes soundtrack), relative lack of diversity would not have been a problem.

secret Zero-G levels on a space station orbiting earth if I recall.
Orbiting Strogg homeworld. Entire Q2 is based on and around this planet.

More visual variety than Q1 really (and more detail crammed in the levels), you just don't like its style and that's OK. Just don't pretend it's measurably bad in this regard.
It is measurably bad.
Q1 wasn't exactly stellar either (eariler Doom and Hexen were much better, so was later Unreal) - people were joking about all the brown then, but Q1 had atmosphere and gameplay to help drive it. Even detail can sometimes work to Q2's detriment because they AI is crap and can't handle more complex geometry, so while in Q1 fiend just straight ran and leapt up to you and eviscerated you, Q2
mutant leaps, gets stuck on the terrain and before it can do anything, player can eviscerate it at their leisure. And in Q1 you didn't have almighty SSG rendering any melee attacker trivial.

The main problem with Q2 isn't any particular thing about it. It's that its various elements fail to support and most of the time actually undermine each other.

  • Extra geometric detail <-> bad AI navigation
  • cyborg enemies (implying superior performance to unmodified organics - else why modify yourself) <-> most enemies are weaker in all regards than player
  • armor plated cyborgs (implying toughness and damage resistance) VS variety of burst and sustained damage weapons <-> lack of any armour mechanics on enemy side (because it exists and is quite good for player) to support aesthetics and diversify weapon utility
  • cyborgs with built-in weaponry (implying faster aim and possibly better performance than handheld versions) <-> incredibly sluggish reflexes and equal or worse weapon performance.
Quake's 2 theme is striking back against cybernetic menace from space. Cyborg enemies as a theme imply a number of things about actually fighting them which Q2 ignores. Enemies can't aim worth a damn (even though weapons are effectively their bodyparts and for a Strogg shooting someone should be as easy and natural as grabbing something with your hand is for you) - to the point you can effectively evade hitscan fire indefinitely in the open. Enemy weapons don't benefit from being effectively attached to robotic support frame and whatever power source supplies it - which should allow them better firepower or rate of fire. Enemies don't benefit from their visible armour plating - quite a few full humanoids are weaker than player (especially accounting for enemy damage nerf in SP) and that's even before you account for armour player can wear that, depending on type, can completely block or reduce various types of damage. Unlike player and contrary to their appearance the enemies are just soft HP sponges with easily triggered painframes. So, when you approach, say, gunner, with an SSG what happens is that the blast folds them in half and turns them into bloody swiss cheese, allowing you to calmly reload and finish him off before he recovers. What should happen is blast ricocheting from the plating without producing noticeable impression, relegating SSG and CG to mincing strong unarmoured targets (such as mutants) or clustered crowds of weak enemies (which actually don't occur in game apart from groups of flyers).

Should the game need weak enemies, you could play on Strogg inhumanity and replace guards with humans processed in situ - effectively naked guys with parts of limbs replaced with cybernetics, a minimalisitc few (painful looking) body implants and cybernetic overrides stuck in their skulls. That would produce reasonable justification for them being weak mechanically, would allow interesting mechanics - say, having (relatively pointless as it is) technician class enemy be able to convert surviving and captive marines, drive home Strogg assholery, and create reasonable gameplay reasons other than mercykilling, for shooting captive marines - mirroring the reasons for gibbing Stroggs after you start encountering medics (which, BTW, shouldn't be possible without explosives as as it is using blaster is both no-brainer and a dreadful amount of pointless busywork).

Strong/miniboss grade enemies should also back more oomph and lack their crippling weaknesses - compare Q2 tank (that requires player's active compliance to actually be able to shoot in their general direction) to, say, Unreal titan (which not only can soak fuckton of damage, but throws boulders - rapidly and accurately - that can more often than not instagib you even with full armour and health and stomps creating miniearthquakes to stun you and make you an easy target - and which is typically encountered in areas augmenting effectiveness of this mode of combat).

My main point isn't that Q2 sucks because of its theme which I do not like - yeah, it's a sucky theme and the game is a dumb dudebro shooter - but that it fails to properly convey its theme and build reasonable gameplay and atmosphere - in or outside of it.
It's not an awful game, but it doesn't stride beyond utter mediocrity.

Additionally, I am continuously annoyed by fans of Q2's SSG and RG - both are powerful but they are powerful precisely because they are unimaginative OP wankfests. Q2 has interesting weapons, but they are MG, CG and HB:
  • MG has recoil mechanics and is not superseded by CG.
  • CG is incredibly powerful but incapable of any sort of controlled fire and needs to wind up.
  • HB is manageable, non-hitscan CG, but you have to pay for your controlled bursts with wind down period.
 

Icewater

Artisanal Shitposting™
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Most of Myscha's maps are my favorites. I think he was the overall most consistent level designer on Unreal: great vision and usually great execution. There are aversions to this (the ISV-Kran is great on paper but playing it isn't that great at times).
I've always been very very impressed with Juan Eekels' maps overall. They tended to be less detailed than others — I believe that was because he was brought in as an extra designer a bit late in the project, but they all had insane scope as well (even more so than Myscha's).
Shane Caudle is quite the unsung designer, who only made great maps (Nali Castle in particular). Jeremy War's maps were pretty good too.
CliffyB's maps are relatively unremarkable in Unreal compared to his UT levels, with the exception of Vortex Rikers. Same goes for Eenocks (Inoxx), even if I do quite like the Mothership as a whole. Terraniux is a chore though. Apparently Nexus and Cryox would've been even more confusing/annoying.
Is there a list of who made each map?

Are the Nexus and Cryox maps from the beta? Those names sound familiar, and I remember that a bunch of beta maps were used in the RTNP: Ultimate Edition mod and, well... if those maps were used in that mod, I can see why they were left out.
 
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skacky

3D Realms
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Is there a list of who made each map?

Are the Nexus and Cryox maps from the beta? Those names sound familiar, and I remember that a bunch of beta maps were used in the RTNP: Ultimate Edition mod and, well... if those maps were used in that mod, I can see why they were left out.

Yeah, the list is:

Vortex Rikers: Cliff Bleszinski
Nyleve's Falls: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Rajigar Mine: Cliff Bleszinski
Depths of Rrajigar: Cliff Bleszinski
Sacred Passage: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Chizra - Nali Water God: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
The Ceremonial Chambers: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
Dark Arena: Jeremy War
Harobed Village: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Terraniux Underground: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
Terraniux: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
Noork's Elbow: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Temple of Vandora: Shane Caudle
The Trench: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
ISV-Kran Deck 4: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
ISV-Kran Decks 2 & 3: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
ISV-Kran Deck 1: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
Spire Village: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
The Sunspire: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Gateway to Na Pali: Jeremy War
Na Pali Haven: Jeremy War
Outpost 3J: Jeremy War
Velora Pass: Jeremy War
Bluff Eversmoking: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
Dasa Mountain Pass: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
Cellars at Dasa Pass: Elliott 'Myscha' Cannon
Serpent Canyon: Shane Caudle
Nali Castle: Shane Caudle
Demonlord's Lair: Shane Caudle
Demon Crater: Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels
Mothership Basement: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
Mothership Lab: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
Mothership Core: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
Skaarj Generator: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
The Illumination: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
The Darkening: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
The Source Antechamber: Cédric 'Eenocks/Inoxx' Fiorentino
The Source: Jeremy War

Also yeah, Cryox and Nexus are included in RTNP UE if I remember correctly.
 

Icewater

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Yeah, the list is:

<list>
Thanks! It's cool to see this. All of the small, joining levels were made by the same guy who also made what was, in my opinion, the second-best level: The Sunspire! The designer of my favorite level, Bluff Eversmoking, also did the two Chizra levels, which I also really liked. He also did the two Dasa levels, which are among my least favorite. Interesting.

Also yeah, Cryox and Nexus are included in RTNP UE if I remember correctly.
I enjoyed RTNP: UE overall because it's Unreal and so always triggers the nostalgia, but like I said before it's clear to me why they removed those levels. They're long, maze-like, and repetitive, both in the visuals and the layouts. You find a closed door, go down some side passages and rooms 'til you find the switch to open it, then go through the door; wash, rinse, repeat for way too long, and then level ends. It reminds me of Doom, but not in a good way. UE made it even worse by relying too much on massive hordes of respawning enemies that all had ludicrous amounts of health.

Also it reminded me that even the original RTNP levels were far weaker than those of the first game, as were the weapons.
 

Ash

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Was it Cliff Blezinski's 'The Forge' that was cut and restored in RTNP? I thought those two levels were some of the better in the expansion pack. Maze-like? That's good! (In moderation). And yeah, the expansion pack really isn't great. But it's not bad either. The ending is abrupt and unsatisfactory (in terms of gameplay). The weapons add absolutely nothing: grenade launcher? We have a flak cannon already. Rocket launcher? We have eightball. CARifle? we have minigun. The level design is merely OK. Those bastards atop the prometheus are hitscan hell. There was plenty they could have done but the whole thing is rather lackluster compared to the original Unreal. Still worth a play though, I mean it was made in the late 90s where even the lackluster/good for what it is destroys most modern shite.
 

ciox

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Unreal, Quake 1 and 2, Half-Life, they all have their strengths and they're all great in their own way IMO.

Quake 2 is hated a lot but it was the first big 3D fps (far as I know) to give you some kind of immersive sim feeling by giving you both hub levels and carriable items, combined with lots of little conceits like being able to use Cells as both ammo and energy for the power armor or use grenades as both handgrenades and launcher ammo, some stealth mechanics like doing extra damage to unaware enemies and having a silencer powerup. They tried, alright?
But no, I can't defend the enemies that do stuff like: periodically stop and shoot very weak avoidable blaster shots while rotating slowly in a wide arc, that just has to be some test code that was left in.

While playing Unreal I was really taken in by the level design and setting, their drive to make everything a little strange worked out in the end, you feel some serious vertigo from being in that world but not so much that you can't take it seriously anymore. Lots of memorable things like watching nali seeds grow into fruit.
Can't deny the combat occasionally felt a little lackluster, especially compared to Quake 1 which was king at making you feel both powerful and in danger at the same time, there's just a few too many instances in Unreal of your weapons either constantly missing by a hair or feeling underpowered.

Most of Myscha's maps are my favorites. I think he was the overall most consistent level designer on Unreal: great vision and usually great execution. There are aversions to this (the ISV-Kran is great on paper but playing it isn't that great at times).
I've always been very very impressed with Juan Eekels' maps overall. They tended to be less detailed than others — I believe that was because he was brought in as an extra designer a bit late in the project, but they all had insane scope as well (even more so than Myscha's).
Shane Caudle is quite the unsung designer, who only made great maps (Nali Castle in particular). Jeremy War's maps were pretty good too.
CliffyB's maps are relatively unremarkable in Unreal compared to his UT levels, with the exception of Vortex Rikers. Same goes for Eenocks (Inoxx), even if I do quite like the Mothership as a whole. Terraniux is a chore though. Apparently Nexus and Cryox would've been even more confusing/annoying.

Yup, I definitely recall seeing "By Myscha The Sled Dog" a lot during my favorite levels' intros. Bluff Eversmoking might be my favorite, great feelings of exploration and synergy with the soundtrack.
 

Ash

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Also now having played Unreal I have a smidgen of respect for Blezsinski. Gears of Decline, Lawbreakers, Bulletstorm, and Radical Heights, needless to say my respect for him as a designer/game dev was very low. But Unreal is worthy. Shame it got turned into a MP-centric frag fest. Not that that's inherently bad, it's just not what I'm interested in so much, especially these days.
 

schru

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It's a shame Epic didn't incorporate the improved weapons and more challenging bots from the Tournament into a new single-player game. Not to say it should play like a skirmish with bots, but UT is unusually good in that regard as far as multi-player games go.
 

Ash

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Best/worst weapons?

Best: Tie between ASMD and Flak Cannon probably.

Worst: Bio Rifle. This would probably be most people's worst, I think. It's just unsatisfying to use. The secondary fire does near enough the same unsatisfactory thing as the primary fire. May as well be a turd launcher. What kind of bio projectiles we talking? Maybe the green slime is alien shit?
The Stinger is probably the runner up for worst.
 

schru

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Flak cannon.

Razorjack and the rifle come second for me.

As for the one I like the least, I wouldn't say it's the worst one in how it feels, but I think the minigun doesn't fit in the game. It's introduced late and it's the kind of straightforward weapon that doesn't complement the otherwise unusual arsenal so well.
 

Ash

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Yup I had the same thought with minigun, AND the rifle.

It's odd, because they could have just kept the base concept but Sci-fi Unreal-ified them. For example, the firestorm cannon in Turok 2 is sufficiently unreal, yet is still basically a minigun complete with spinning multi-barrel:

640


There are other examples, e.g Laser Gatling. I assume Epic just got lazy/lost their creative spark with the last two weapons.
 
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catfood

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The Razorjack is really cool. You can decapitate opponents with one shot but you can also accidentally kill yourself if you're not careful. That's cool design in my book.

My vote for the worst would have to be the minigun, not because it isn't useful but because it's a very boring weapon to use.
 

schru

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Yup I had the same thought with minigun, AND the rifle.
Yes, the rifle is also fairly ordinary and all, but it's compensated by how satisfying it is to try to make head-shots with it in the more open maps, and because the hit-box for the head isn't too generously sized, it actually takes a bit of good reflexes to do it.

Also, wasn't it the first powerful precision-aiming weapon capable of making head-shots in first-person shooters? I'm not sure if Quake II distinguished between the heads and the rest of the body, and Sin required its sniper rifle to be used in the scoped mode to deal more damage, I think.
 

ciox

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Yup I had the same thought with minigun, AND the rifle.
Yes, the rifle is also fairly ordinary and all, but it's compensated by how satisfying it is to try to make head-shots with it in the more open maps, and because the hit-box for the head isn't too generously sized, it actually takes a bit of good reflexes to do it.

Also, wasn't it the first powerful precision-aiming weapon capable of making head-shots in first-person shooters? I'm not sure if Quake II distinguished between the heads and the rest of the body, and Sin required its sniper rifle to be used in the scoped mode to deal more damage, I think.

Could be, the "headshots" in Quake 2 were actually extra damage against unaware enemies.
 

Ash

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Also, wasn't it the first powerful precision-aiming weapon capable of making head-shots in first-person shooters? I'm not sure if Quake II distinguished between the heads and the rest of the body, and Sin required its sniper rifle to be used in the scoped mode to deal more damage, I think.

It's often said to be Goldeneye. It's quite possible that's true.
 

skacky

3D Realms
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The Flak Cannon is the best weapon by far to me. Worst would probably be the Stinger or the Bio-Rifle (but only in Unreal, the Bio-Rifle in UT99 is great).
 

DraQ

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Thanks! It's cool to see this. All of the small, joining levels were made by the same guy who also made what was, in my opinion, the second-best level: The Sunspire! The designer of my favorite level, Bluff Eversmoking, also did the two Chizra levels, which I also really liked. He also did the two Dasa levels, which are among my least favorite. Interesting.
Seems pretty consistent, IMO.

A guy specializing in outdoor levels and relatively basic architecture doing outdoors with some basic architecture (Spire interior isn't architecturally grand, even if level as a whole is beyond awesome), a guy specializing in complex and meticulously detailed complete environments but sometimes prone to losing himself in pointless complexity making both some awesome complete environments and a somewhat pointless labyrinth (Dasa cellars).

I enjoyed RTNP: UE overall because it's Unreal and so always triggers the nostalgia, but like I said before it's clear to me why they removed those levels. They're long, maze-like, and repetitive, both in the visuals and the layouts. You find a closed door, go down some side passages and rooms 'til you find the switch to open it, then go through the door; wash, rinse, repeat for way too long, and then level ends. It reminds me of Doom, but not in a good way. UE made it even worse by relying too much on massive hordes of respawning enemies that all had ludicrous amounts of health.

Also it reminded me that even the original RTNP levels were far weaker than those of the first game, as were the weapons.
RTNP:UE is still major incline over RTNP.

RTNP just falls apart after you find the ship and new weapons are completely pants - the only cool things about them is GL sound and the fact that primary and secondary for CAR can be used completely independently.

Quake 2 is hated a lot but it was the first big 3D fps (far as I know) to give you some kind of immersive sim feeling by giving you both hub levels and carriable items, combined with lots of little conceits like being able to use Cells as both ammo and energy for the power armor or use grenades as both handgrenades and launcher ammo, some stealth mechanics like doing extra damage to unaware enemies and having a silencer powerup.
If you're hell bent on full 3D there was Terminator: Future Shock, and later Hexen II.
If just full 3D environments - System Shock.
If 2.5D (raycaster) counts there was Hexen and Strife.

Each, perhaps apart from Hexens which merely matched it, easily outclassed Q2 in terms of immersive sim approach.

Q2 could have been decent if it didn't drop the ball so hard on the gameplay. Had the enemies used armor mechanics and were they actually capable of harming not-entirely-incompetent player, the game would have been ok. Not a classic, but good for what it was.

While playing Unreal I was really taken in by the level design and setting, their drive to make everything a little strange worked out in the end, you feel some serious vertigo from being in that world but not so much that you can't take it seriously anymore. Lots of memorable things like watching nali seeds grow into fruit.
Can't deny the combat occasionally felt a little lackluster, especially compared to Quake 1 which was king at making you feel both powerful and in danger at the same time, there's just a few too many instances in Unreal of your weapons either constantly missing by a hair or feeling underpowered.
That's sadly one of actual problems with Unreal weapons - they were cool conceptually and generally well designed, but they dealt noticeably too low damage.

Best/worst weapons?
Worst:
Stinger. Primary is poor man's minigun, secondary is poor man's flak. The weapon has no identity of its own, even GESBiorifle does some unique shit (quite literally in its case) and has its own niche. Stinger's niche is dumping unused and unwanted ammo on sluggish damage sponges.

Best:
Rifle/Eightball/Flak trio.

Yup I had the same thought with minigun, AND the rifle.

It's odd, because they could have just kept the base concept but Sci-fi Unreal-ified them. For example, the firestorm cannon in Turok 2 is sufficiently unreal, yet is still basically a minigun complete with spinning multi-barrel:

640


There are other examples, e.g Laser Gatling. I assume Epic just got lazy/lost their creative spark with the last two weapons.

What's wrong with having some good old slugthrowers in an FPS? The only problem with minigun is that you didn't have crowds of weak enemies to mince with it and that it didn't quite reach the ludicrous levels of dakka of fully spun up Q2's chaingun.
Visually there is nothing lazy about it - it isn't even conventional gatling but some sort of weird, dual, intermeshing gatlings - egg-scrambler style.

Yup I had the same thought with minigun, AND the rifle.
Yes, the rifle is also fairly ordinary and all, but it's compensated by how satisfying it is to try to make head-shots with it in the more open maps, and because the hit-box for the head isn't too generously sized, it actually takes a bit of good reflexes to do it.

Also, wasn't it the first powerful precision-aiming weapon capable of making head-shots in first-person shooters? I'm not sure if Quake II distinguished between the heads and the rest of the body, and Sin required its sniper rifle to be used in the scoped mode to deal more damage, I think.

Could be, the "headshots" in Quake 2 were actually extra damage against unaware enemies.
Q2 had no headshots, only 2x damage sneak attack.

I don't recall sniper rifle doing more damage with scope in Sin, the game was pretty cool and had full locational damage (you could even shoot a gun out of enemy hands - and have it happen to you as well), although it came out later than U1 and looked a bit crap.

Shogo had sort of sniper rifle (for mecha) that only did very low damage without scope (but could then be fired full auto).

It's often said to be Goldeneye. It's quite possible that's true.
If TPP counts MDK came out earlier and featured beautiful sniper mode.
Future Shock didn't have sniper mode per se, but some weapons had working scopes displaying somewhat zoomed in version of what was in the crosshairs.

Terra Nova also had adjustable zoom and target cam displaying highly zoomed in version of currently locked target.
 
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Ash

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A guy specializing in outdoor levels and relatively basic architecture doing outdoors with some basic architecture (Spire interior isn't architecturally grand, even if level as a whole is beyond awesome), a guy specializing in complex and meticulously detailed complete environments but sometimes prone to losing himself in pointless complexity making both some awesome complete environments and a somewhat pointless labyrinth (Dasa cellars).

What do you have against Dasa Cellars? Oh right, you're an atmosphaggot. Gameplay-wise it's a solid level, and though they insisted on recycling a Titan battle for the 10th time, at least this time they mixed it up by spawning mooks into the arena with it.
 

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