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Game News Underworld Ascendant releasing in September, gets negative previews

Mustawd

Guest
Janky doesn’t mean broken. It means somewhat functional, albeit retarded gameplay.

Now if you wanna bitch about an overused trendy term, then “cuck” is my recommendation.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
to be honest from what ive seen of this game, "janky" is exactly how id describe the animations (or lack thereof), physics, aiming, movement & controls, etc
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
More from Sam the community manager: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1980.msg27269#msg27269

Sam Luangkhot said:
Just to break it down some more, I'd like to elaborate on an example of a narrative/interactive character who is (and isn't) ready to show:

Aelita.

You've all heard her voice across a few trailers and seen her concept art. The truth is, her model is already in the game, and has been since a little after February. (3 months ago!) The trouble is SHOWING Aelita when all of the immersive elements aren't online yet.

Spoilers below:

Some of the basic BASELINE interactions with Aelita are as follows:

- Depending on your Faction reputation, Aelita can offer to trade you certain items at a discount. The trade system ITSELF is working, but the UI is a still a work in progress. And by work in progress, I mean there's a large trade screen visible and you can drag items across to one side or the other, like DOS2 or Runescape. This is definitely not ready to show yet, and we need to figure out how to make the design cleaner.
- Aelita needs animations. She currently just stands in Marcaul, which is definitely not very screenshot-worthy or video-worthy for trailer purposes. Those are still being worked on.
- She's one of the few characters with voice acting, and will greet you and comment upon your progress every time you see her or talk to her. She has about 50% of her basic voice lines in already, but are missing some of the more specific ones about your playstyle.

Now, how do you SHOW an interaction with Aelita? Would we just run up to her in game, ask to trade, and then walk away? We were hoping to showcase her more confidently when other narrative systems were online as well. (For example, imagine Lizards who prioritize you over Skeletons if you've been killing them in the level, an Outcast who you failed to finish off ambushing you from behind a corner... etc). Since the narrative and world is tied to combat actions as well, it's hard to isolate JUST the narrative aspects without showing everything else we're working on.

We've discussed a few other stretch goal interactions with Aelita that would add to the immersiveness, but we'll have to see where we are by August. (I pitched an idea of having Aelita leave Marcaul on occasion and warn the player "hey, I'm going out to the Abyss tomorrow, so the next time you're here, I won't be able to trade with you!" so you could stock up... but we'll see if anything like that is easy enough to squeeze in.)

The point is, a lot of the features we haven't shown are in this similar state. Maybe 60/80% finished, but missing that last stretch of polish that we don't want to show without. I'm all for showing true works-in-progress, and we can START showing more of these behind-the-scenes features, but work on the game will always come first. This style of development means that sometimes even the stuff that would look great in trailers (narrative, tighter and focused gameplay, etc) isn't ready to show until right before launch.

As for the features that haven't been finished yet, we have more time than standard AAA releases, since we're currently PC-only, and we don't need to wait in line in the console certification process.

Other criticisms about the "jank" and animations that may need fixing will also need to be brought into context. Joe mentioned this isn't a polished rollercoaster-game that takes you from cutscene to cutscene. Because you're able to do so much in the Abyss, some enemies will never be able to move as predicted. I watched someone ride a brazier like a broom and levitate across a gap on it, cackling like a witch while the Lizard Men below FREAKED OUT and couldn't figure out how to reach the player. Yes, it's not predictable, but that's the beauty of a LGS immersive sim, isn't it?

Another point is about the world of the game. We recognize that not all players will be used to a world where you have to figure out the systems. Hacking repeatedly at a skeleton actually doesn't do that much damage, and if you MUST strike with a sword, heavy attacks are actually better. Skeletons WILL block your shots if they notice you're spamming the sword. Magic is also tricky; most spells are not made for combat, and a lot of people rush into fights thinking the wand will automatically guide a spell to the enemy, or spam spells in an attempt to do damage. Players who take their time to explore the systems will be rewarded. It's unfortunate we didn't have more time to showcase UA while at the press event, but we're still taking note of all the feedback we're receiving.

We're looking into grabbing more external playtesters (which we pitched a month or two ago), potentially from the forums, to help us with this on a more regular basis as we gear up for launch.
 

Bohr

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This is just making things worse if anything, sounding even more desperate and unfinished. Probably need a 'stop posting' button on their forums too.
 

The Avatar

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That's a poor excuse. This late in development, they should have a good amount of "immersive elements" ready to show. The game should be more or less feature complete and they should be spending the last few months working on finishing and polishing the last of the content and fixing bugs. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see how anyone can have any confidence in this game. The release is going to be a mess.
 

Crescent Hawk

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642
Shit this is really what I needed. After that shitty half hearted attempts that were Dishonored and Prey trying fucking hard to be Bioshit, and lets not forget over praised (Imo, still played it all the way ) Human Revolution , now actual LGS folk will kill off any chances that something like Thief will ever appear again in this world.

The writing was on the wall with that fucking vomit inducing art style.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
now actual LGS folk will kill off any chances that something like Thief will ever appear again in this world.
If you believe we ever had a chance of a true Thief sequel in this day and age, you are delusional. It would never happen. Even if the people who made that game would come back and start developing with their current mindset, they have changed and their design principles have changed. There is a reason Obsidian couldn't replicate the magic of the infinity engine games. There is a reason why Double Fine couldn't replicate the golden point and click adventures. These developers don't look at game development the same way they did 2 decades ago.

Underworld Ascendant might be broken at release but I think it will be the closest we can get to an Ultima Underworld spiritual successor.
 
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Crescent Hawk

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I know a Thief in this day and age would never happen, but I would think or daydream, that in a healthy culture the old guard would pick the more prominent members from the new age, and create something fresh while still being Thief. To this day we have fan missions of incredible Thief looks and feel\quality being made.

Its fucking sad.
 

almondblight

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Messages
2,549
It's telling that though the KS page says this:

Alive with bustling underground societies: enclaves of human renegades scavenging for survival, villages of the mysterious shambler “mushroom people” performing arcane rituals, dwarven factories producing the finest arms and armor....Encounter rugged dwarf frontiersmen, fierce dark elf renegades, and strangely alien shamblers. Each faction holds a valid claim to The Stygian Abyss. Which side will you join? Will you unite, or destroy?

The trailer shows skeletons, skeletons, skeletons, and uh...more skeletons.
 

Au Ellai

Educated
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Their community manager just needs to stop posting. The video and initial report had me thinking "eh, well games journalists are stupid and the jank doesn't look any worse than you'd expect from a systems type game where there are so many possible interactions that creating separate animations for every potential interaction would be unfeasable, this still looks pretty rad" but their community manager is painting an incredibly clear picture of a game that's nowhere near done and studio that's so far down the group-think hole that they don't even realize how far behind they are. Four months to release is when the game should be finished and you're just polishing a few things like UX and AI tweaks, etc. It's not the video that's making the game look bad as much as it is this community manager with stars in his eyes trying to insist that having placeholder graphics still in the game and a vital npc having only 50% of the voice lines done with no animations somehow equates to "almost done and ready for release."
 

Korron

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Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's amazing how much good faith our beloved veteran RPG developers have flushed down the toilet with KS. Maybe publishers aren't the evil we all paint them out to be. If there is a system for competent software lifecycle management I haven't seen it in my career. Very limited agile to make sure people are moving in the right direction is about it. Estimates are complete bullshit. In fact it often just gets in the way of talented individuals time, and is just used as a way to appease management. The development team is really what matters, and one big name won't fix a bad one.
 

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
It really seems like they have lost sight of the fact they are supposed to be making a traditional RPG.

The immersive sim aspects should be an added bonus, not the entire focus of the game.
 

Ash

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It's amazing how much good faith our beloved veteran RPG developers have flushed down the toilet with KS. Maybe publishers aren't the evil we all paint them out to be..

Oh they are. It's just our beloved veteran developers are old, lacking the brimming passion they once had, are family/money-oriented etc. Simply not what they once were at all. Myself I am young, passionate and hardcore asf/naive. If I or someone like me were to start a kickstarter you'd do well to cough up the money (I'm not going to, but I may do something related).

It really seems like they have lost sight of the fact they are supposed to be making a traditional RPG.

The immersive sim aspects should be an added bonus, not the entire focus of the game.

An "Immersive Sim" actually IS a traditional RPG combined with simulation/immersive design. That is the most common form of "Immersive Sim": UW1, UW2, Arx, SS2, DX and to a lesser extent Prey, DX2 etc. When people say Immersive Sim they're usually referring to those games. Thief and System Shock 1 as well, but the most common incarnation of it is an RPG, as well as the first incarnation (Ultima Underworld).

My point being, RPG design also falls under "Immersive Sim" design.
 
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LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
I think an immersive sim is about trying to do what RPGs have aspired to do (simulation of adventure on personal level) with computational power, than actual RPG with all the usual trappings (visible stats, class, dice rolls etc.). So in that sense (ideal) immersive sim is very much a "traditional" RPG, even if its specifics are not aligned with traditions of RPGs established throughout the decades.
 

RatTower

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The first thing they should have nailed down during development was movement and combat, above all else.

In an action rpg the combat needs to be addictive, make players search out the next encounter.

There is a lot of truth to this. I've been thinking about it a lot lately and no matter how much you promote "alternative" solutions, 90% of players will always fall back on the primary mechanics. In Thief it's stealth, in action RPGs it is combat. That's just how it is.

So you need a primary mechanic under which to deliver all the other stuff. And you need to nail that primary mechanic down during early (!) development. It has to be solid. At least if you wanna play it safe. Sometimes the other stuff then even outshines that mechanic and everything is neato - "immersive sims" are actually well known for that (think of the shooting mechanics in Deus Ex). But if the most obvious mechanics of a game are lacking and the other stuff is vague - that's no good. Which is why I'm really concerned what combat will look like in the E3 alpha build. I kinda had the impression melee combat was mostly avoided in the last two videos (10 min gameplay and the trailer don't really show any). Hopefully because they were in the process of fixing it.

I mean it is possible to fix this, but the actual implementation isn't even the big problem. The big problem is providing proper assets and re-iterating the core mechanics with them. In this case you'd have to provide solid animations, then check how they work with the movement mechanics (and all other systems), fix whatever needs fixing, adjust whatever needs adjustment, check how it works out again and repeat that whole process several times. In most software companies those iterations (often called "sprints", depending on the collaboration mode) are normally between 2 and 4 weeks. If you wanna release in three months you gotta do 2 week sprints. But for two weeks you gotta run a really tight ship. That is actually what makes my heart sink. I'm still hopeful they can nail down those core mechanics and deliver a solid dungeon crawler. Even if it isn't the big immersive sim revelation. That is really secondary at this point.

Gotta say, in kind of a tragic way, I'm learning a lot these days :salute:
 

Kem0sabe

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The first thing they should have nailed down during development was movement and combat, above all else.

In an action rpg the combat needs to be addictive, make players search out the next encounter.

There is a lot of truth to this. I've been thinking about it a lot lately and no matter how much you promote "alternative" solutions, 90% of players will always fall back on the primary mechanics. In Thief it's stealth, in action RPGs it is combat. That's just how it is.

So you need a primary mechanic under which to deliver all the other stuff. And you need to nail that primary mechanic down during early (!) development. It has to be solid. At least if you wanna play it safe. Sometimes the other stuff then even outshines that mechanic and everything is neato - "immersive sims" are actually well known for that (think of the shooting mechanics in Deus Ex). But if the most obvious mechanics of a game are lacking and the other stuff is vague - that's no good. Which is why I'm really concerned what combat will look like in the E3 alpha build. I kinda had the impression melee combat was mostly avoided in the last two videos (10 min gameplay and the trailer don't really show any). Hopefully because they were in the process of fixing it.

I mean it is possible to fix this, but the actual implementation isn't even the big problem. The big problem is providing proper assets and re-iterating the core mechanics with them. In this case you'd have to provide solid animations, then check how they work with the movement mechanics (and all other systems), fix whatever needs fixing, adjust whatever needs adjustment, check how it works out again and repeat that whole process several times. In most software companies those iterations (often called "sprints", depending on the collaboration mode) are normally between 2 and 4 weeks. If you wanna release in three months you gotta do 2 week sprints. But for two weeks you gotta run a really tight ship. That is actually what makes my heart sink. I'm still hopeful they can nail down those core mechanics and deliver a solid dungeon crawler. Even if it isn't the big immersive sim revelation. That is really secondary at this point.

Gotta say, in kind of a tragic way, I'm learning a lot these days :salute:

I recently finished God of War on the ps4, it was a pretty big game for the genre, lots of hours of gameplay, but it never felt boring, never felt like a chore, because the combat just felt satisfying.

Prey i also played on the ps4, ended up becoming a chore to finish, because the combat was boring, without having compelling story and mission content to make up for it.
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I think an immersive sim is about trying to do what RPGs have aspired to do (simulation of adventure on personal level) with computational power, than actual RPG with all the usual trappings (visible stats, class, dice rolls etc.). So in that sense (ideal) immersive sim is very much a "traditional" RPG, even if its specifics are not aligned with traditions of RPGs established throughout the decades.

I tend to agree. While not necessarily the be-all, end-all definition of an RPG (and certainly not an all-inclusive one), games that allow you to 1.) (optionally) design/choose your character(s) and (non-optionally) direct their ability growth; and 2.) choose the way your character(s) approach the game mechanically, partly according to abilities, which requires the game to make multiple approaches available, are together a solid formula for scratching a very similar itch. Meaningful C&C, whether stemming from physical or social/story game interactions, is always hugely desirable.

Non-traditional RPGs like Deus Ex that excel in all three of these categories are invariably awarded the badge of office of a Right Proper RPG by the great minds of the Codex.

I learned these principles very early on in my life in the form of Quest for Glory I. You select and customize your character, direct his growth, interact with the game as befits his profession and abilities, and the things you do and say during the course of the game affect how it proceeds and, to a limited extent, how it ends.

I have no idea where this "immersive sim" jargon came from, though. I swear to Christ I hadn't heard it until I played through Prey and discussed it on the Codex a few months back.
 

Mortmal

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Could end up like elex , a game that is viewed by most as shit and frankly is but those who plays it loves it.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
727
The first thing they should have nailed down during development was movement and combat, above all else.

In an action rpg the combat needs to be addictive, make players search out the next encounter.

There is a lot of truth to this. I've been thinking about it a lot lately and no matter how much you promote "alternative" solutions, 90% of players will always fall back on the primary mechanics. In Thief it's stealth, in action RPGs it is combat. That's just how it is.

So you need a primary mechanic under which to deliver all the other stuff. And you need to nail that primary mechanic down during early (!) development. It has to be solid. At least if you wanna play it safe. Sometimes the other stuff then even outshines that mechanic and everything is neato - "immersive sims" are actually well known for that (think of the shooting mechanics in Deus Ex). But if the most obvious mechanics of a game are lacking and the other stuff is vague - that's no good. Which is why I'm really concerned what combat will look like in the E3 alpha build. I kinda had the impression melee combat was mostly avoided in the last two videos (10 min gameplay and the trailer don't really show any). Hopefully because they were in the process of fixing it.

I mean it is possible to fix this, but the actual implementation isn't even the big problem. The big problem is providing proper assets and re-iterating the core mechanics with them. In this case you'd have to provide solid animations, then check how they work with the movement mechanics (and all other systems), fix whatever needs fixing, adjust whatever needs adjustment, check how it works out again and repeat that whole process several times. In most software companies those iterations (often called "sprints", depending on the collaboration mode) are normally between 2 and 4 weeks. If you wanna release in three months you gotta do 2 week sprints. But for two weeks you gotta run a really tight ship. That is actually what makes my heart sink. I'm still hopeful they can nail down those core mechanics and deliver a solid dungeon crawler. Even if it isn't the big immersive sim revelation. That is really secondary at this point.

Gotta say, in kind of a tragic way, I'm learning a lot these days :salute:

Either we disagree, or I'm getting hung up on your singular use of the word "mechanic" (by definitions I follow, this would be a low-level action the player can take e.g. running, jumping, swinging a sword, etc.). For the most part, Immersive Sims are a "sum of their parts" genre, where the gameplay formula is built on a bunch of mechanics and systemic interactions between them. Other than maybe Thief, none of them are really built on just one primary mechanic the way Super Mario Bros is built on its jump mechanic. If I get less pedantic and extend your comment to a group of core mechanics (Doom's would be run, shoot, and swap weapons), that's now true of a lot more games, but still not really of any Immersive Sim, again outside of maybe Thief. The gameplay formula of the Ultima Underworlds, System Shocks, and Deus Ex are predicated on a much wider array of design elements operating all at once, as a product of their kitchen sink design philosophy. System Shock doesn't properly have its core gameplay if you remove any one of: the combat mechanics, inventory and resource management, audio logs guiding goal completion, level design gated by player abilities and keycards/codes, cybernetic upgrades, security systems, respawning enemies, hacking puzzles, etc. On their own, many of these mechanics and systems aren't all that impressive, and they certainly couldn't carry the experience on their own. But taken in context, they all form a rich and deeply engaging whole (this leads to my own personal theory on why there are so many Thief fan missions and almost none for SS2 -- the gameplay formula for Thief is quite a bit tighter and can be made compelling without as many hand-placed interacting elements in the level design, more similar in complexity to Doom which more readily admits iterative level design). It is this feature of the Immersive Sim genre that leads its developers to often comment that their games only becomes "fun" in the final stretch of development -- until you have everything in place, it's hard to really pin down the core gameplay.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is a much riskier route than iterating on a foundation of a rock solid gameplay formula, and that's why most developers do that instead (hence Joe Fielder's "theme park rides" comment). I also agree that it doesn't really look like Otherside has the time to pull it off by September, given how much is apparently still down the pipeline. The additional concern I've arrived at is that they aren't playing it safe in the one way that would count for an Immersive Sim, which is following their own design doctrines from back in the day. I recently complained that the interaction animations in U:A were ignoring abstracted communication standards set by LGS et al with the original Immersive Sims, and more generally that their desire to "innovate" by throwing out a bunch of their own design conventions leaves me skeptical that they'll find their way. The old Immersive Sims had a design throughline, a set of principles that they never broke but always bent and shaped to fit the game at hand, and that's what made them so endearing and worth playing to this day (I say this as a more recent convert). With U:A, we're not seeing that picture come together in the same way, and that's what leaves me most worried. It's not just that I'm not confident they won't be able to push all the content through, but also that they won't have time to iterate on it to push their game in this more experimental direction. If they had started by iterating on the tried and true formula (more like Arkane did with Arx Fatalis, building on UU's gameplay with SS2's interface and interaction standard, while innovating on top with its magic system, quest reactivity, and so on), they'd still have an ambitious project but they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel to do it.

I think an immersive sim is about trying to do what RPGs have aspired to do (simulation of adventure on personal level) with computational power, than actual RPG with all the usual trappings (visible stats, class, dice rolls etc.). So in that sense (ideal) immersive sim is very much a "traditional" RPG, even if its specifics are not aligned with traditions of RPGs established throughout the decades.

I tend to agree. While not necessarily the be-all, end-all definition of an RPG (and certainly not an all-inclusive one), games that allow you to 1.) (optionally) design/choose your character(s) and (non-optionally) direct their ability growth; and 2.) choose the way your character(s) approach the game mechanically, partly according to abilities, which requires the game to make multiple approaches available, are together a solid formula for scratching a very similar itch. Meaningful C&C, whether stemming from physical or social/story game interactions, is always hugely desirable.

Non-traditional RPGs like Deus Ex that excel in all three of these categories are invariably awarded the badge of office of a Right Proper RPG by the great minds of the Codex.

I learned these principles very early on in my life in the form of Quest for Glory I. You select and customize your character, direct his growth, interact with the game as befits his profession and abilities, and the things you do and say during the course of the game affect how it proceeds and, to a limited extent, how it ends.

I have no idea where this "immersive sim" jargon came from, though. I swear to Christ I hadn't heard it until I played through Prey and discussed it on the Codex a few months back.

Regarding the topic of the Immersive Sim genre, its roots in RPGs, and whether its name is worth keeping, I wrote this:

While I agree "Immersive Sim" is a stupid/redundant/vague term (as with many genre names), I do think there are ways you can glean some meaning out of it. The whole genre started with Looking Glass Studios (or Blue Sky Productions at the time) trying to emulate what they felt was the core of the PnP RPG experience on the computer, with an immersive first-person perspective and the dice rolls replaced with as much real-time simulation as they could manage to give the impression of a reactive game world. Mostly, this is the argument I trot out when people claim that games in this genre are inherently better off for featuring fewer RPG abstractions, but it also illustrates where such a term might emerge.

Still, my point also shows how weak the term is. The fact that many people think RPG elements are antithetical to the spirit of the genre belies a failure of the terminology to communicate its history and essence. Clearly, an Immersive Sim need not be an RPG any more than it need be a first-person shooter, but it has its roots in such. There are elements from many genres that fit, many that don't, and many that are arguably necessary. The words "Immersive" and "Sim" hardly bring much to bear on any of these aspects, let alone that people can barely agree on what they even mean by "immersion", and that "simulation" brings to mind a totally different sort of game.

It can be hard to pin down any genre that consist of disparate elements, though, so I think it probably is better to tie it to the history (e.g. with "Underworld-likes" or "LGS-style games") and call it a day. That way, anyone claiming that Forklift Simulator 2014 and Prey belong in the same category has to contend with the fact that they're both being compared with the likes of Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, and Deus Ex.

(I think you can take it up with Warren Spector for coining the term, if you're looking to assign blame)
 
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Oof: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1980.msg27260#msg27260

Sam Luangkhot said:
I'm worried this isn't my Underworld.
Looking back on this project's archives, I think we can all agree it has taken a lot of twists and turns throughout the years. The game has been scoped down enormously, suffered some large production setbacks, and had a significant number of changes to content and team. Heck, the 2015 Kickstarter promised some extreme character customization despite the enforced first person perspective.

Additionally, while this game does have its roots in the first two Ultima Underworlds, the team is of course going to bring in design and technical experience from working on later titles and playing other games. This game is ambitious, much like it's predecessors, and it has almost 26 years of new experiences to build off of. These integrations have been added to improve the game and provide something new. A remastered Ultima Underworld would be neat, but would it be worth an entirely new game?

All in all, the best I can promise is that we're constantly learning and improving.

3-4 months ISN'T a lot of time, I agree. But so much can happen between today and next week, and this is the time we especially need to have faith in each other's commitment to the project. This team is like my battalion, and while I've joined the fight late, I'm giving it my all so we can finish this.
I don't enjoy to be a Negative Nancy, believe me, especially not for a project like this, but this is basically the closest you'll ever hear a company admit "YEAH, OUR UPCOMING GAME FUCKING SUCKS. NOT MUCH WE CAN DO ABOUT IT AT THIS POINT".
 

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