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So, about Lands of Lore 2 and 3

Baxander

Augur
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
234
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I think they are worth playing once...but that is about it. The first game though---loved it. Just loved the atmosphere and simple charm, the fairy tale type world. It worked for me.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
Enjoyed LoL 3 more than 2. Finished 2, but had to use a walkthrough. Not because of some advanced puzzles, but because using glowing ball x on column y just didn't make any sense. There weren't descriptions of items or any clue what to use where. The ending just seemed like a great unfinished empty with lots of objects and cutscenes but so little that fit together. Too bad, because I really wanted to like the game and it had a certain charm.

Then again, I'm tempted to play it again to see if I was just having a bad experience.
 
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
3,535
640full-lands-of-lore-ii%3A-guardians-of-destiny-screenshot.jpg


:love:
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
So I recently bought the GOG version of LOL2 and tried another walkthrough of the game. There were some special things I wanted to try out. But then the decline began…

Man... that curse of transforming into beastforms is really a curse. I've totally forgotten how annoying that is. So fucking annoying. Utterly fucking annoying. And the clunky controls make it even more annoying: in that you can only have 1 spellgroup active. The annoying curse results in that you always want to have the "Human-Beast Spellgroup" active to suppress the transformation. This in turn actively hinders you in using any other spellgroups. Every time you want to use another spellgroup, you must be afraid that a transformation happens, forcing you to switch back to the Human-Beast spellgroup hastily and try to suppress it - which often fails because it's so clunky.

Talking of spellgroups… I noticed more than ever how useless most of the spells are. For example the whole Orc-Spellgroup is useless. And also most of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th from any other spellgroup. And they take too fucking long to activate. Even when using a hotkey it still takes seconds to activate the higher spells, because they „charge up“ step-by-step instead of activating instantly. The „charging up“ takes so fucking long, that it‘s easier to spam spelllevel 1 instead. This is definitely better solved in LOL3 where you can instantly cast any spell in your quickbar. Eventually the amount of useful spells throughout the whole game is ridiculously small: spark#level1, healing#level1, healing#level3, healing#level5, death#level5, transform#suppress, transform#toHuman, transform#toLizard

Talking of useful spells... I wanted to go through the game killing as few enemies as possible. This would be best supported using the "Invisibility Spell". Didn't work well. First – the spell costs quite a lot of mana, second - it only has a short duration of 30 seconds or so, and third - you'd need its spellgroup to be active for longer periods of time, but can't do that because you need that Human-Beast spellgroup active as well to suppress any transforms. So it‘s basically unusable. The earliest time to profit from invisibility is, when you get that invisibility shield in the Citadel. But at that point you don't encounter too many enemies anymore, so it doesn‘t really matter anymore. Also all these spiders later in the Huline Temple can see you despite the shield... which destroys the attempt of "doing things unseen".

Let‘s talk about some special items... so there's "Kelen's Ring", which allows you to attack 2-3 as fast with bare hands. It should be very useful for the Lizard or the Beast. After trying it out I found out that there's no gain from it in Lizard form. The Lizard can already attack by default at the same speed. And imo the ring also didn't make the Lizard stronger. Took an eternity to kill a spider in the caves. In Human form you can attack faster with the ring equipped and kill some enemies by hand, but not worth compared to a sword.
Eventually it should be awesome in Beast form, eh? Imagine the strong beast attacking thrice as fast! Well - it works and at the same time not. The Beast now attacks very fast, but not in his original strength. He actually got weaker. With the ring equipped and fast attacks it took 10 seconds to kill a spider. Without the ring and default slow attacks it also took 10 seconds. So at the end of the day, both make the same amount of damage in the same time. This makes the item completely obsolete.

Talking about attack speed… so there‘s this „Cobra Stone“ which allegedly reduces Melee/Ranged attack rating by 50%. Should be awesome - except I couldn‘t observe this effect at all. I don‘t know, maybe it only works in combination with very few special weapons? Or maybe it just doesn't. But that's the thing. You got all these items in the game which should feel special and awesome, and yet they don't feel like it. Most of them are only usable in a very limited context, disappoint or don't even seem to work. Same shit as all the items in LOL1 which had „special names“, but which meant mostly nothing at all.
EDIT: after some experimenting it turns out it does indeed improve attack rating, but only for melee attack. For example in combination with the Reaver of the Great Orc it really speeds up the attack rating (and in that more useful than the Firesword against the dragons in the Dracoid Ruins, because it paralyzes them so often, that it prevents them to spout that deadly fume). Previously I was using the Lightdagger. This weapon shoots crystals and is actually very efficient against the green dragons from the distance, and useful to light up all the torches. Unfortunately the Cobra Stone did not enhance its attack rating. It also didn't enhance the attack rating of the generic crossbow I had. So I guess it doesn't work for ranged attacks.

As I was trying to go a peaceful path… it has been said once, that the wildlife only attacks you if you attack it first. For some part it‘s true, but not entirely. While I was mostlys left alone from the black panthers in the jungle, suddenly one of it attacked me without reason and then all panthers attacked me. I was in human form (not in beast form which could have been seen as a threat). Maybe it‘s because the very first time when you enter the jungle there‘s a scripted sequence where a panther attacks you. And because of that you are probably considered as „dangerous“ by the panthers and you can never have total peace. The game basically ruins the peaceful approach in here by their very own stupidly scripted sequence.
And there‘s another thing: I experienced once in the game in the Dracoid Ruins following thing: the first time one of these green dragons would kill you, you‘ll be teleported to the arena. If you win the fight in the arena, the green dragons leave you alone. They don‘t attack you anymore, as if you‘ve gained their „respect“. Well – not this time: I won the fight in the arena, but the green dragons still kept on attacking me afterwards. So much for that…

Besides I also noticed how the gameplay path is forced in annoying ways. If you do not follow some paths exactly as the game wants you to, the game becomes stuck. For example, if you don‘t go into the pub in the Huline Jungle and talk with Baccata, the NPCs in the monastery will not be spawned. And because of that the quest with the runes in the hives cannot be done. So you run about aimlessly, wondering where everybody is and why nothing‘s going on anymore. The whole game is stuck, just because you forgot to talk to Baccata. So eventually you find out entering the pub and Baccata tells you that „Dawn is here“… and yay the game continues. Thing is, this trigger is not comprehensible, because the magician in the Huline Village also told me that „Dawn is here“ - but this didn‘t trigger her (or Julian) appearing in the monastery. You must speak to Baccata (and then experience the infamous Baccata-Cantina-Crash. Hooray!).
The same issue can happen in the Savage Jungle: you must enter the Huline Temple at least once and watch the cutscene, otherwise the doorkeeper of the village is not spawned. Without the doorkeeper you cannot access the village, without access to the village you cannot access the shaman‘s hut, and without the shaman you cannot get the key to the Dracoid Cemetary. So again the whole game is stuck, just because you forgot to explore that small corner in the map. This can also happen when you want to do a speedrun and consider going straight to the goal and skipping some map exploration – ouch!

Uninstalled.
 
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Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
Yeah, you got a point. The story and gameplay potential is good, and many things criticised could be fixed with some user interface tweaks. Graphics is another story though. The game should be remade in an uptodate game engine. Then it would look like the prerendered 3d sequences (in Speaking Stones or when entering a new area) - which would be awesome.
 
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RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
468
I like LoL2 a lot actually.
Exploration, world building, the characters and most of all the music are really nice (music shouldn't be much of a surprise, since Frank Klepacki composed it).
Gameplay-wise it was fine. Definitely not as much freedom as other RPGs, but a few choices here and there. It never occured to me when I first played it, but you can chop and slash your way through the village in the jungle and basically skip a lot of the game's second act.
I never had much of a problem with the curse. It messes with you, but that was kind of the point. You can control it later from what I remember. Gives you a nice sense of progression. Also both forms have their individual advantages.

LoL3 is a mixed bag. The writing is pretty awful (though I only noticed that after revisiting it years later). The whole game is more like a theme park with different rides.
I mean it even got its own haunted mansion.

Though that was also part of its charm. The world struggles a lot with the same issues as Ultima Underworld 2 in so far, that it doesn't really feel like a coherent place, but level upon level upon level.
Which is exactly what it is, it just doesn't click with me. On the other hand: The levels are really different thematically and I still believe the fire dragon's cave is surprisingly motivating and fun to explore. You feel really lost in a different dimension and the gradual introduction of the level's boss is also pretty nice. The haunted mansion is neat because it's a haunted mansion. Those get a free pass in every game from me. The temple of nod was just weird. All in all the game was pretty unfinished in parts and you could tell it was the beginning of the end for Westwood.

They put out Nox after that - which I believe was pretty good, but it couldn't compete with Diablo 2. In 2002 they released C&C Renegade, which was pretty popular, but unfortunately not enough to save the company.
 

naossano

Cipher
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
1,232
Location
Marseilles, France
Yeah, you got a point. The story and gameplay potential is good, and many things criticised could be fixed with some user interface tweaks. Graphics is another story though. The game should be remade in an uptodate game engine. Then it would look like the prerendered 3d sequences (in Speaking Stones or when entering a new area) - which would be awesome.
I would say visual design, rather than the tech.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
So I recently bought the GOG version of LOL2 and tried another walkthrough of the game.

So I recently bought LOL3 and tried another walkthrough of the game...because of nostalgia and so. Unfortunately it wasn't that enjoyable, so I took some notes.


Exploration and loot: There are hundreds of barrels with loot, hundreds of tree holes with loot, hundreds of chests with loot, hundreds of items hidden in every corner of the map. A paradise for any treasure hunter? No. Eventually you realize that 99% of these items are useless and only good for selling. So you spend hours and hours exploring every corner of the map, breaking barrels, fingering tree holes, breaking into buildings - only to find useless crap. There are even map sections which open up later in the game or change, providing new items, but in the end it's also mostly crap. You might as well run through them as fast as possible or ignore them completely. But if you do that, you miss 5 good items in the game... So go and find that needle in the haystack. It wears down quickly and becomes annoying.

Alchemy: There are hundreds of alchemical ingredients and recipies. But eventually you realize that 99% of the recipies are completely useless for the game. It's like the alchemy was put in the game only "because a good RPG must have alchemy", though with no purpose behind it. No other purpose than selling them at the various stores (it's as meaningless as all the items that are meant for 1-time-usage only, like "Dragon Blood" or "Mine pots" or "Fire crystals", which make a mini-explosion, but hardly any damage). The game would have been better without alchemy. LOL1 didn't have alchemy, and it was fine. In LOL2 they introduced alchemy, but it was mostly pointless there. In LOL3 they added even more alchemy, and it was even more pointless. Wtf?
You'd maybe think that crafting poison for weapons is more useful than other things: Wrong. Poison acts so slow on the enemies, it's useless. It was the same in LOL2. Made no difference. But woe to you if you got poisoned! Dead within seconds! Ridiculous. It's like they put this thing in and never spared a second thought about it.

Party banter: It was said that some of the familiars are more talkative than others, for example that Lig doesn't say many words, and that Goldie is very talkative. But in reality it's like this: The familiar only speaks at certain trigger points in the game. But these trigger points are the same for every familiar. So every familiar will say some words at these trigger points. The only difference is, that Lig says 1 sentence and Goldie says 5 sentences. That's a bit lame.

Weapons & Magic: They are fine. There are hundreds of weapons and armor with special effects, spells for defense and offense. Many of them come from LOL2, but here in LOL3 they seem to work better and you also get indepth descriptions about their effects (which LOL1 and LOL2 lacked). Most of the good weapons and magic are available in the guild stores. You don't find many good weapons in the environment. Once again makes an indepth exploration of the maps pointless.

Guilds: They are ok. The guilds actually provide you with all equipment you need for a complete walkthrough. Even if you only join 1 guild. Try it out, it really works. It is however stupid that they separated the Finches guild from the Mage guild and distributed the magic spells between them. Unnecessary, artificial complexity. 3 guilds would have been enough.
That said, you can complete the game also without joining any guilds. Health and Spell points rise up after some fights, but you don't get any visual clue when you gain a new level (other than seeing your increased points on your HP and SP bar). In that case your journal also contains no information about your level and experience. In that case you are also dependent on equipment which you find in the environment (because you can't buy from the guild stores unless you join them), and therefore forced to examine every corner of a map...

This walkthrough I only joined the Thieves Guild, but took Goldie from the Finch Guild as familiar (she was quite helpful actually). One of the great things about the Thieves Guild is, that you get items which make you invisible: Mask of Shadows (makes you invisible when standing still, but visible when running) and the Cowards Shield (makes you invisible unless you fight and then needs 10 seconds to make you invisible again). You'd think that one of it is sufficient, but it isn't. The effect is much better when used combined. It allows you to attack something and make you invisible immediately again. I could infiltrate and complete 2 portal worlds without any fighting because I wasn't detected by any of its inhabitants (the Ruloi World and the Shattered Desert). Quite relaxing was that.
The overall game experience however was only mediocre. The game has too much shitty filler content in it. Too much! You always think you miss out on something if you ignore this or that, and because of that the game really drags on. But in the end it's all unnecessary useless bloat. The core of Lands of Lore features a simple levelling system (which hardly changed since LOL1), with focus on weapons, armor, magic, and some riddles. They should have stuck to that and kept the game size appropriately, and then it would have been a decent 5 hour game with some replay value (and probably without broken guild quests).
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,687
Location
Perched on a tree
I'm not sure Lands of Lore 2 & 3 aged very well but i remember having a great good time with Lands of Lore 2 back in the days, bought the box for next to nothing in a second hand store and i probably played it during a drought, still, it was fun, i had to use a walkthrough because i was blocked 2/3 times but other than that, it was way more entertaining than some recent games (i'm not naming them, we all know them too well).
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
I noticed that the GOG version of LOL3 has some issues compared to the original unpatched version.
One example is the training room of the Thieves Guild (for those who don't know - yes it has a training room). In the GOG version the door to the training room is locked. In the original version it was also locked, but there was one time I could get in.
Another example is that Sionet from the Mage Guild does not appear in the Ruloi World. However I remember she was there when I played the original version.

EDIT:

I need to correct myself... kinda. I wanted to try out both things in the unpatched game again and installed my original CDs.
First I checked the thing with the thieves training room. Despite my expectations however I couldn't get into the room. And then I suddenly remembered: back then when I first played the game I tricked the game by clicking the door very fast and often, which caused the doorcrack to open more and more. And once the doorcrack was big enough, I could slip through. But I also remember, that afterwards I was stuck in that room. I couldn't open the door anymore with the same trick.
So after remembering this trick I now tried it again. But it didn't work anymore. I'm not sure why, but can make a guess: back then (in the year 2000 or so) it ran in DOS or Win95 and a slow computer. And maybe that slow, old, buggy system was the reason it worked (probably causing some delays in input or animations). That said the original version isn't better than the patched version, because the door is always locked on both versions.
Realizing that the original version is as much buggy as the patched version, I didn't play any further. Actually I now remember that event with Sionet was also buggy in the original version. Sometimes she appeared, sometimes not. It depends on the order of how you do things and on quests and other triggers.

Therefore I come to the conclusion that the GOG version is alright and misses nothing compared to the unpatched original version. Besides when trying out the original version I was totally annoyed by constantly having to change the CDs. So stick to the GOG version.
 
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