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KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

HoboForEternity

sunset tequila
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I know you guys mean well but you‘re kinda giving SJW the little finger when you say that maybe Prague had black people.

Fact is, in 15th century Middle and Eastern Europe there were probably no black people at all, except maybe for some single individuals that somehow winded up there through some freak accident (you can never rule this out).

It’s not like Eastern Europeans, or any Europeans for that matter, held black slaves for the lols in their own cities and villages. There were simply no black people in Europe back then.
yes but the fact ia they choose not to put them because they will complain anyway.

Put 1 character, with a good background and story that makes sense, they will complain why there is only 1, and he is just token character.

Put a bunch of them, they will also find a way to whine.

Even if you make everybody black, they will whine ON TOP of historical enthusiasts, kkk and neo nazis (not to put actual history buff on the same level as nazis, but complains will come from all sides either way)
 

cvv

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This obsession with one race is very suspicious you guys. Black black black. Does nobody care about the utterly shameful and racist exclusion of Inuits, Pacific Islanders and the especially oppressed Ya̧nomamö indigenous people of inland Venezuela from the game? Are these people not important for the Grand Wizard Vavra? No, of course not, because they're not white, rite?
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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Guys, guys... let me illustrate the preposterous dimension of this whole PoC non-troversy. We wanted to have Jews in the game, because they are a big part of medieval Europe across the whole continent. Yet there are none. It's a legitimate question to ask why and there are some simple reasons which stem from our commitment to accuracy:
1) Jews dwelled in major economical hubs. None of KCD's cities are major cities by any stretch of the imagination. The monastery was certainly a major centre of education (in decline) but not an economical one.
2) Jews were restricted from living in any silver mining city so our often mentioned Kuttenberg (which was a major city and which we do plan to have in some upcoming game) also cannot feature them. (Fun fact: Since Jews couldn't live in Kuttenberg they settled in large numbers in the nearest bigger city of Kolín - about 10km away - and it's one of the reasons why this city ever got as big) This also means that Skalitz couldn't feature Jews.
3) Since Jews were considered a property of their lord (mainly the king) and as such were a well protected source of some considerable income, and since they needed this protection, they mostly lived in the lord's seating city. Rattay would be eligible for that since it's a seating city of both lord Hanush and lord Capon but again the city is too insignificant even though we're picturing it around the peak of its glory.

So that's that. No Jews in KCD. And prevalence of black people vs Jews is about 1:100 000 and that's only when the planets align well enough to cause that there actually is a black person anywhere in the kingdom. I would like to say it happenned once in a blue moon but blue moon is actually way more common. Yet, we don't have them and we are not being accused of anti-semitism (and I believe we would be if we ever depicted struggles of the Jewish people as they really were back then). Hmm, what does that say about people who accuse us of racism and creating some white people utopia for lack of black people?
:hmmm:
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Guys, guys... let me illustrate the preposterous dimension of this whole PoC non-troversy. We wanted to have Jews in the game, because are a big part of medieval Europe across the whole continent. Yet there are none. It's a legitimate question to ask why and there are some simple reasons which stem from our commitment to accuracy:
1) Jews dwelled in major economical hubs. None of KCD's cities are major cities by any stretch of the imagination. The monastery was certainly a major centre of education (in decline) but not an economical one.
2) Jews were restricted from living in any silver mining city so our often mentioned Kuttenberg (which was a major city and which we do plan to have in some upcoming game) also cannot feature them. (Fun fact: Since Jews couldn't live in Kuttenberg they settled in large numbers in the nearest bigger city of Kolín - about 10km away - and it's one of the reasons why this city ever got as big) This also means that Skalitz couldn't feature Jews.
3) Since Jews were considered a property of their lord (mainly the king) and as such were a well protected source of some considerable income, and since they needed this protection, they mostly lived in the lord's seating city. Rattay would be eligible for that since it's a seating city of both lord Hanush and lord Capon but again the city is too insignificant even though we're picturing it around the peak of its glory.

So that's that. No Jews in KCD. And prevalence of black people vs Jews is about 1:100 000 and that's only when the planets align well enough to cause that there actually is a black person anywhere in the kingdom. I would like to say it happenned once in a blue moon but blue moon is actually way more common. Yet, we don't have them and we are not being accused of anti-semitism (and I believe we would be if we ever depicted struggles of the Jewish people as they really were back then). Hmm, what does that say about people who accuse us of racism and creating some white people utopia for lack of black people?
:hmmm:
You guys didn't put jews in the game because if it was historically accurate the media would endlessly kvetch about a videogame featuring a good old fashioned pogrom.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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I don't believe so. case in point - Mafia 3. It depicted the 60s'(?) Southern casual racism very well and was lauded for it. If we took a stance that anti-semitism is fucking wrong, and I believe all the creatives here are on the same boat in this regard (Vavra even claims he's partly jewish.... or was it his wife's family? not sure), I think we'd be ok.
There are two theoretically problematic things though. First, the player would not be able to play as one of the oppressed. That's a difference from mafia 3 where you are black. Second, we would likely have to give Henry (the player) the option to conform to the society-wide anti-semitism in crucial story points. That could be some explosive material as this game's side would be unironically revered by actual Nazis or similar trash.
So.. yea, maybe you're right after all :D
 

cvv

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Smejki what I'm really wondering is this - you have obviously not thought too much (if at all) about the political implications of KCD in the US. Did the entire SJW circus changed your approach to designing whatever is coming next from Warhorse?

Is the thought "will the Americans be ok with that" gonna be always on your minds from now on?
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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If we took a stance that anti-semitism is fucking wrong

You mean if you were to ignore the historical causes that lead to the rise of anti-semitism time and time again across Europe.

Yeah, probably best to just keep Jews out of the picture. After all, acknowledging that Jews even exist might force people to start noticing things.








































































Don't you regret mentioning Jews already? :troll:
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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Smejki what I'm really wondering is this - you have obviously not thought too much (if at all) about the political implications of KCD in the US. Did the entire SJW circus changed your approach to designing whatever is coming next from Warhorse?

Is the thought "will the Americans be ok with that" gonna be always on your minds from now on?
Doubt it.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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If we took a stance that anti-semitism is fucking wrong

You mean if you were to ignore the historical causes that lead to the rise of anti-semitism time and time again across Europe.
If we were to acknowledge and explain the causes of antisemitism (like the obligatory usury for example) we would definitely also acknowledge and show what pushed Jews into their positions. Because it truly is an Ouroboros of massive stupidity on the part of feudal society and its set of rules and incentives.
 

vazha

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Aug 24, 2013
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So, started playing this... My god, M & B made mounted combat look so easy. With this, half of the time I have no idea where the enemy is and during the other half i miss when swinging at them. Time to git gud perhaps, but it just seems sooo clunky.
 

Lycra Suit

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If we were to acknowledge and explain the causes of antisemitism (like the obligatory usury for example) we would definitely also acknowledge and show what pushed Jews into their positions. Because it truly is an Ouroboros of massive stupidity on the part of feudal society and its set of rules and incentives.

That's good to hear. I myself do believe, along with the majority of modern scholars, that the main reason Jews were often picked on was because they were a distinct minority easy to point fingers at whenever things went sour. Just don't go all the way to the opposite extreme and depict all Jewish characters as angelic figures who can never do anything wrong.
Claiming that some Israelis elites are dreadful supremacists who abuse their position of power to oppress Palestinians does not make someone an antisemite for example. I think the best way to combat antisemitism and fully dissociate your studio from a group of unsavory online nazis is to treat Jews in your game like normal human beings. Some could be altruistic and honest, some could be self centered and prejudiced and so on.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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Sure. That's one more reason why there are none. I we were to explore the Jewish topic we would need a whole plethora of different Jewish characters. Which is impossible in KCD1. We could say that there's one or two Jews i Rattay (cause that's a plausible scenario). That would make them the only ones to represent all the people of one massive ethic group and as such they would inevitably end up as one the two extremes you point out - as either oppressed angels or the epitome of all the bad stuff related to Jews.
We can only do this topic justice if we have a whole Jewish quarter with at least two dozens of different people. There's no space for that in KCD unfortunately.
 

SlamDunk

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Smejki

Sincerely hope that you'll never give in to the demands of social justice warriors. That will be the beginning of the end. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
 

Raghar

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Yeah I dunno about "no black people at all" cause they somehow managed to end up even in the most ridiculous of places like Japan. I'd expect a few odd ones out across even Eastern Europe somewhere but probably only in major cities and such. "No black people in Europe" is especially doubtful considering that Italy, Spain and Portugal are in Europe.
You'd expect? But what about some historical stuff?
You are talking about cichu - windones. Do you remember the negotiation between Charles I the great and them about theirs tribute to Franks? No? So you don't know they told him to showed the tribute into his arse. And then there were some gestures. Ouch these gestures. Shortly after, there were three columns entering from multiple directions into the country. Lets say he accomplished nothing, then he burned fields, moved out and imposed weapon embargo on czechs, which is probably longest lasting weapons embargo in history of Europe. In 150- 300 years czech learned how to make decent weapons and they kept theirs weapon industry, so things were not that bad. (in long term) Next year, a military expedition from Italy arrived to finish what he started. Either its leader was smarter and used diplomacy first, or these burned fields made czechs more sober, thus they got these voles and silver as a tribute.

Years 860 to 1100 were spend by leader trying to kill corruption to be able to get taxes to actually be able to field army to be able to resist large Germans invasion. Like when these taxes disappeared in pockets of some people, and he didn't get even 1/5 of them to be at least able to field permanent well trained army... Also there was tribal unification into one kingdom under one ruler. Then one of leader forbade slavery, which killed 30 percent of income from slaves moved through territory. Obviously NO SLAVERY, meant NO SLAVES moved through territory, or being HARSHLY punished.


Aside of czech national pride and xenophobia that preserved them as a state for over 1400 years, as mentioned in previous two paragraphs, there were another compelling reasons.

Shortly before years this game talks about, there was year 1315. Which if you are from European ancestors, you probably know was first year of massive crop failure... There were also years 1316, and 1317. Which of course meant, foreigners and blacks would be OBVIOUS foreigners, went to baking oven first. It's not like czechs would allow starving a children of people who lived in czech highlands for 300 years for some foreigner.

A black is obvious father of a children in fully white population. To have someone who could get a woman into a trouble near would be obviously bad idea. Even when he's not rapist, there could be accidents.

People in middle Europe at these times, thought white skin without birthmarks is quite important, and will not want to have children with someone with obvious, for them, birth defect.

To these days there is saying that means, after work kill black skin person instead of salary. Being obvious foreigner in 1360 was BAD idea. (Note certain groups of people WERE protected, no matter of skin color. Later Gypsies abused it for easy spread in Europe.)

Peasant though devils have dark skin, thus anyone black skinned was prone to get fork into his stomach. They were able to understand after thoughtful explanation that dark skinned person is a member of a guard of a local duke. But, sensible person would keep him in castle and in protected area, and insist someone OBVIOUSLY from his guard would ALWAYS accompany him to avoid misunderstanding. Even then there would be commotions which would distract peasants from work, which would be bad idea.


Basically, even when they would allow a blacksmith son to be black... Which would be quite strange. Then the guard in the castle would see an obviously strange person running toward castle, he's new, nobody told him blacksmith son in nearby village is black. There were raiders who burned a village, it has to be one of them. Boom crossbow bolt into his chest. End of story.
 

Raghar

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they would inevitably end up as one the two extremes you point out - as either oppressed angels or the epitome of all the bad stuff related to Jews.
Or you can get inspiration from Reccetear and create game "Jewish shop simulator".

Jews are not problem. But, writing all flavor text and Jewish specific stuff, would require significant effort. Young man who risen to the power, that works for jew as well. But to make jewish playtrough different from a young son of blacksmith playtrough, and make it significantly unique, that would be hard.
 
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Raghar

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Yeah, 15 century Bohemians are well known for their role in colonizing Africa and trafficking slaves. Vavra really dropped the ball there.
To be honest 15? century czechs (mercenaries) are well known for kidnapping crocodile and releasing it near city for theirs entertainment. They correctly assumed czechs living in that city are dumb as bricks and would go crazy.

The previous model was well within 10%, maybe even 5%, and its only major defect was almost a week long lag behind reality.
I liked that one week delay. It worked as an info site, not as something that could affect sales. Imagine what could happen when they would show accurate data in real-time.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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No jews please.
Tough luck.
e9d49661-83f2-4ff3-80d7-ddbf3fc87f45.jpg.ashx
 

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