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How do obviously bad ideas like endurance system in poe end up in the final game?

SkiNNyBane

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From recent memory:

- POE and endurance/health system with 2 camping charges is just annoying. There is nothing redeeming about it.

You can still buy camping gear in stores, so all it does is force you through unforgivable tedium. Even if that wasn't the case, you don't actually know which encounters await you along the new area, and thus can't possible know which spells/endurance to save for tougher fights or when you will find another camp.

- DOS 2 and the armor split system. The itemization system of having to rob NPCs blind every level.

I mean its so obviously anti fun. How the fuck did they manage to go through the entire development process before someone inevitably says - "hey guys what the fuck are we doing?" It is an artificial barrier to possible builds and strategies to explore, forcing every fight to basically be get rid of armor and cc to death.

Also is it really not braindead obvious that having to replace items that often makes exploration and finding uniques completely unrewarding?

- Both games suffer from level being too important syndrome, where you are basically forced into a linear exploration path (on hardest difficulty), because encounters will be too easy, too hard or just right, all within 1 level of each other.

There are other examples but I am legit perplexed and annoyed how this passed through the brainstorming phase.
 
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Sacred82

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From recent memory:

- POE and endurance/health system with 2 camping charges is just annoying. There is nothing redeeming about it.

wrong, there was something redeeming about it, and that is having a character go down without being taken out for good. A pure HP count has always been retarded, fight at 100% performance until you suddenly drop dead. And then you're suddenly alive again, because, you know, stabilizing and resurrection. Instead of endurance/ health they could have gone wounds/ health, but it doesn't matter.

You can still buy camping gear in stores so all it does is force you through unforgivable tedium. Even if that wasn't the case, you don't actually know which encounters await you along the new area and thus can't possible know which spells/endurance to save for tougher fights or when you will find another camp.

Honestly, camping was done quite well in PoE. You had different inn bonuses, you could tailor the stronghold to your resting needs, and it could actually be preferrable to camp outside if you had some characters perform much better with survival bonuses. Before Defiance Bay opens up I'd usually trudge back to Gilded Vale to rest for free, but otherwise, you have a lot of choices that you can tailor your party around.
 
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-> Assumes Obsidian are good at their job.


That was your first mistake I'm sorry to say.
 

SkiNNyBane

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wrong, there was something redeeming about it, and that is having a character go down without being taken out for good. A pure HP count has always been retarded, fight at 100% performance until you suddenly drop dead. And then you're suddenly alive again, because, you know, stabilizing and resurrection. Instead of endurance/ health they could have gone wounds/ health, but it doesn't matter.



Honestly, camping was done quite well in PoE. You had different inn bonuses, you could tailor the stronghold to your resting needs, and it could actually be preferrable to camp outside if you had some characters perform much better with survival bonuses. Before Defiance Bay opens up I'd usually trudge back to Gilded Vale to rest for free, but otherwise, you have a lot of choices that you can tailor your party around.

I mean then why the fuck not make it so that your characters regain full endurance when the fight is over. I don't mind the permadeath after a few knock outs tho that wasn't a bad idea. Also needless to say you can have the cool things about camping without being forced to camp because some ghost bitch slapped your priest too hard last fight.
 

Shadenuat

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Sawyer is a DM That Knows Better (tm), who doesn't like games he plays and always thinks he can do better, so he bullied others into his design.

He wants to protect players from instantly dying or killing themselves because he believes that systems should have higher tolerance to players making mistakes than they usually do.

This led him to a concept of a second shield aside from hp, which is not a new concept and was played around by other systems. He didn't want to stray too far from how IE games did it, but wanted to break down player mistakes into more smaller mistakes that would not kill them.

In my opinion, HP is already a shield/resource good enough. You have one critical resource which you protect/replenish with other resources, and if you fail, you die, pure and simple. Further mechanically protecting this resource leads to less lethal and more casual combat where price of mistake is lower and you care less about what's happening around.
 
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Sacred82

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In my opinion, HP is already a shield/resource good enough. You have one critical resource which you protect/replenish with other resources, and if you fail, you die, pure and simple.

in non-deterministic combat, and especially non-TB, you can die due to a number of things that aren't your fault. Throw things like crits/ insta-kill spells/ super high damage single target spells in the mix, and people have what they claim they want (exciting unpredictable combat where dying is your fault in 1 out of 4 cases). Ofc the Kodex prefers systems that reward extreme metagame knowledge/ cheese with punishing systems for e-penis points.
 

Shadenuat

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Extreme metagame knowledge is JRPGs. Where some bosses just do 9998 out of your 9999 hp of damage and you're supposed to be prepared for this. And somehow, the genre survived with this.

If we're talking IE games, first of all, everything what happens in a single player game is your fault, and you can always re-load too. Then, most of the things have counters. Sure, poison can be very punishing in IE, but is it much metagaming knowledge to use antidote healing yourself? In BG1, they even give you some the moment you are going into a quest to fight some spiders.

Also, the price of mistake is not as high as say in X-Com - you can just resurrect some companions.

So really, the thing you describe is not the most hardcore/metagame required series of games existed. If anything, they're supposed to be "casual".

Personally, I *think* it definitely CAN be less punishing, and more deterministic (although, protection from death > 100% defence against death spells - how much more deterministic can you get? Unlike PoE1, where at first any defence against Charm was useless since it would just maybe downgrade them to graze), for example on Obsidian forums I stated: maybe not save or die spells, but save or out of combat spells (like paralyze/turn to stone - you can turn to flesh back after combat) could be better.

Also grazes are probably not bad at all for physical attacks.

But that's already fixing a lot of problems. If you slap extra hp buffer on top of it, or, even worse, make characters replenish everything after combat like PoE2 does, you're just making combat a safe toy and not-lethal at all.
 
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Sacred82

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Extreme metagame knowledge is JRPGs. Where some bosses just do 9998 out of your 9999 hp of damage and you're supposed to be prepared for this. And somehow, the genre survived with this.

metagame knowledge is WRPG's, from which weapon style is best represented in the game, to what kinds of resistances and attacks monsters tend to have, knowing what areas are locked based on your level if non-scaling, knowing the prevalance of self-healing vs. healing items in the game, to preparation of Vancian magic.

If we're talking IE games, first of all, everything what happens in a single player game is your fault, and you can always re-load too.

with extreme metagame knowledge, to a point, yes, provided there are means to avoid whatever's going to happen.

Who is even talking about reloading? Or are you suggesting punishing systems are great because they make people reload?

Then, most of the things have counters. Sure, poison can be very punishing in IE, but is it much metagaming knowledge to use antidote healing yourself? In BG1, they even give you some the moment you are going into a quest to fight some spiders.

Also, the price of mistake is not as high as say in X-Com - you can just resurrect some companions.

So really, the thing you describe is not the most hardcore/metagame required series of games existed. If anything, they're supposed to be "casual".

BG1 being casual for a first time player? Most certainly not. Too many failed saving throws throughout the entire game, for one. A first time player might try to scout the entire map, but then some encounters break stealth, and that's not casual behaviour anyway.

Anyway, is this dissolving into a discussion wether PoE is too casualized? Because that's not where I was coming from. My point is, any system that can take a character out of the fight early due to injury is good. Wether that happens in the form of stackable wounds or dual endurance/ health I don't care. Thing is, if you do that, you probably don't want the character to be dead for good right away. Imagine your fighter becoming useless due to number of wounds very early on, now you even have to hide the fucker so he doesn't die altogether. At least in D&D, an injured fighter can do *something* until he drops dead, or you just heal him back up.

Third option would ofc be, have HP + wounds, and allow the player to heal both during combat, but that would just be extra busywork.

Personally, I *think* it definitely CAN be less punishing, and more deterministic (although, protection from death > 100% defence against death spells - how much more determenistic can you get? Unlike PoE1, where at first any defence against Charm was useless since it would just maybe downgrade them to graze), for example on Obsidian forums I stated: maybe not save or die spells, but save or out of combat spells (like paralyze/turn to stone - you can turn to flesh back after combat) could be better.

In essence, a spell that takes you out of the fight instantly isn't that different from what I described above, so I wouldn't have a problem with that. OTOH, this game is simply not about hard counters.

Also grazes are probably not bad at all for physical attacks.

I'm late to the party, but I just realized you need very little to no perception on a crowd controller with super high INT. You just graze people, they're still debuffed/ taken out of the fight as if you'd hit them.

But that's already fixing a lot of problems. If you slap extra hp buffer on top of it, or, even worse, make characters replenish everything after combat like PoE2 does, you're just making combat a safe toy and not-lethal at all.

I haven't played PoE2 so can't comment on that.
 

Trashos

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From recent memory:
POE and endurance/health system with 2 camping charges is just annoying. There is nothing redeeming about it.

The problem was that there was gameplay (you had to fight and you might die), which is inconvenient to a lot of players (real or imaginary). So the endurance/health mechanic tried to solve that problem.
 

thesheeep

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The problem was that there was gameplay (you had to fight and you might die), which is inconvenient to a lot of players (real or imaginary). So the endurance/health mechanic tried to solve that problem.

I actually prefer how they did it in PoE 2 - you can rest an unlimited amount of times, but doing so in the wild will only cure minor injuries (you get injuries as you get knocked out). If you receive a major injury, it simply won't go away until you rest in an actual inn.
You can get a major injury for example by not resting with a minor one and then getting knocked out again or getting knocked out twice in a fight (and "resurrected" in between).

That actually leads to a better pacing.
I really dislike games that have you constantly running back and forth between town/inn and exploration/dungeon just because it doesn't allow you to heal up on the fly. Going back to town and then back to where you were all the time is a 0 challenge menial activity so it is best to be left out most of the time.
 

TripJack

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how did alpha protocols minigames make it in
mystery.png
 

Norfleet

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Tyranny's Enemy AI always goes after the party member with least Armor, so the optimal strategy is putting Mages in Heavy Armor and Tanks in Light Armor.
So, this is game where Bikini Warriors are a thing that actually makes sense as an optimal strategy?
 

Trashos

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That actually leads to a better pacing.
I really dislike games that have you constantly running back and forth between town/inn and exploration/dungeon just because it doesn't allow you to heal up on the fly. Going back to town and then back to where you were all the time is a 0 challenge menial activity so it is best to be left out most of the time.

I don't mind automatic healing after the battle for those left standing. But I don't like the automatic resurrection for whoever fell. Kills some of the suspense of the combat. I don't have an ideological problem with it, maybe it can be done right, but I haven't seen it done right.
 
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Bladeract

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Sawyer is a DM That Knows Better (tm), who doesn't like games he plays and always thinks he can do better, so he bullied others into his design.

He wants to protect players from instantly dying or killing themselves because he believes that systems should have higher tolerance to players making mistakes than they usually do.

This led him to a concept of a second shield aside from hp, which is not a new concept and was played around by other systems. He didn't want to stray too far from how IE games did it, but wanted to break down player mistakes into more smaller mistakes that would not kill them.

In my opinion, HP is already a shield/resource good enough. You have one critical resource which you protect/replenish with other resources, and if you fail, you die, pure and simple. Further mechanically protecting this resource leads to less lethal and more casual combat where price of mistake is lower and you care less about what's happening around.

Exactly. The great ballancer does not let you get yourself killed, or let you get by scot free. You must pay a moderate price.
 

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People so eager to pounce on Sawyer they're not noticing OP is arguing for Dragon Age popamole health regen
 

Tigranes

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Many good points have been raised against POE1's schizophrenic attrition system. The OP doesn't have any, this is just "uh i hate x lul why r people so stupid?!?!"
 

thesheeep

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I don't mind automatic healing after the battle for those left standing. But I don't like the automatic resurrection for whoever fell. Kills some of the suspense of the combat. I don't have an ideological problem with it, maybe it can be done right, but I haven't seen it done right.
But that's the thing, they didn't fall.
Just because you're out of a combat, you're not automatically dead - games used to be way too black-and-white about that if we're honest.
Especially for the winners of a battle, their "fallen" can often be saved still.

I'd also like to see some differentiation there. Sometimes, characters should actually die, and other times, with an injury system, characters can get up with injuries. Maybe depending in how much damage the killing blow dealt.
 

Trashos

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But that's the thing, they didn't fall.
Just because you're out of a combat, you're not automatically dead - games used to be way too black-and-white about that if we're honest.
Especially for the winners of a battle, their "fallen" can often be saved still.

The question is what is going to work better in a game and make combat more suspenseful. If there is a plethora of hard fights where we are in real danger of being wiped out, I guess that can work. But usually games are not that hard, so what keeps things interesting is trying to keep everyone alive. But yeah, both systems can work in theory.

I'd also like to see some differentiation there. Sometimes, characters should actually die, and other times, with an injury system, characters can get up with injuries. Maybe depending in how much damage the killing blow dealt.

That's how BG2 treated killing blows. I agree that it's a cool system. You don't want to risk permanent death, so you try to keep everyone on their feet. Too bad that this wasn't good enough for a modern game, apparently.
 

Glaucon

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It adds an extra layer and strategy and management to the combat. First time playing through the game on Hard mode, I had no issues (after about 10 hours) intuiting how I needed to ration out abilities per fight.

Edit: To the people who say that limiting resting resources is meaningless because you can always go to an inn--the threat of tedium is as far as I'm concerned a perfectly valid balancing tool.
 
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SkiNNyBane

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People so eager to pounce on Sawyer they're not noticing OP is arguing for Dragon Age popamole health regen

I mean if you want to heal up using potions, meditation, or camping or whatever I don't care what system it has in place for that. I fail to see how chogging cheap potions or spamming heal spell after fights in most games is good game-play. But I don't mind some systems to be in place to make it more difficult. What I care about is the dumb way in which you regen only part of your health due to endurance system and you can't regen further in ANY way unless you camp.

This game is popamole combat regardless if you regen to full health or not. I believe that if you combat is shit - at least don't make it a waste of time and pain in the ass. In general its kind of confusing to me how this forum plays the most poorly designed and braindead games combat wise and unironically use words like popamole lacking any self awareness. I am all for anti popamole combat games but that would mean removing 99% of your top 50 games on the website.

I understand popamole can refer to game beyond combat system btw but that's not what we are talking about here.
 
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aweigh

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Just wanted to mention that Endurance is the single-most asked for thing to have returned in Deadfire. Personally I don't think it makes much of a differences whether it's there or not, at least not with PoE mechanics.
 
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aweigh

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When you suddenly realize JRPGs (like Dragon Quest) have harsher punishment for allies getting knocked out/dying.
 

SkiNNyBane

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Just wanted to mention that Endurance is the single-most asked for thing to have returned in Deadfire. Personally I don't think it makes much of a differences whether it's there or not, at least not with PoE mechanics.

It mas seem that way due to recent appearance of those posts but if you spent any time on /r/pcgaming or w.e they had a bunch of top upvoted comments saying they didnt go through or don't want to return to replaying poe because of endurance system.
 

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