RPGs cannot have action-based movement or combat, Fallout: New Vegas is not an RPG

[Tito Anic]

Too bad neither New Vegas nor Alpha Protocol are RPGs.

Who cares. I finished it seven times.

 

[Black Angel]

Here's a soundtrack for you to listen to during your debate, making it more intellectual:

More like

Or

 

[Lacrymas]

Put that together and you get - building a character for the purpose of making choices that meaningfully reflect the character's persona as defined by his build. A game that enables you to do that is a game that allows roleplaying, or in short an RPG.

This is exactly my first point in the "juvenile list" you are so quick to dismiss. Except that definition isn't enough. If this is the only definition, then only Fallout and AoD fit into that.

 

[AnnoyanceCrime]

Put that together and you get - building a character for the purpose of making choices that meaningfully reflect the character's persona as defined by his build. A game that enables you to do that is a game that allows roleplaying, or in short an RPG.

Betrayal at Krondor isnt an RPG. WWE games are RPGs.
Because its bullshit there has to be something more than just that.

 

[Zer0wing]

You're in the wrong subforum, diceroller. >Gazebo is two blocks down.

TB or not TB, is an own personal preference.

 

[FeelTheRads]

No, that would make it a shooter only if the shooting was the most important aspect of the game - which it really isn't.

Except it really is.

After walking, shooting (or if you go melee, flailing around like a retard) is the thing that you do the most in this game.
So yes, it really is a (shit) shooter, right after being a hiking simulator.

It also has some RPG elements.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Make sure you're all sipping some exquisite tea while following this thread, in order to properly participate in this erudite discussion.

 

[Quillon]

Even finding new items in adventure games is character development.

 

[Sacred82]

uuuhh

by that logic, having 'elements of other games' in RPG's would make RPG's part of those other genres.


Roleplaying doesn't necessarily involve weapons. Shooters by necessity have weapons in them though.

As I said, RPGs, in fact, are not a genre, there are RPG elements that we add to other genres. Wargames became RPGs when character advancement/creation was added to them.

trying to find some sense in this. So, you're saying RPG's are not a genre (which in turn means other genres are not really other genres but the only genres there are). So I have a very primite shooter where I run around with unupgradeable stats shooting at things and dodging. Now I add upgradeable stats (e.g. stronger weapons and armor). This turns the game into an RPG.

I have a primitive real time strategy game without upgrades to facilities or units. Now I add upgrades or experience to units. It's now an RPG, even though nothing else changed.

In essence, any game in which any 'RPG elements' (I'd like to see a list of those btw) exists is an RPG.

M8, doesn't make much sense.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

 

[frajaq]

Today I learned the Wings of Liberty Starcraft 2 campaign is an RPG

 

[Prime Junta]

oh for fucks sake

 

[Sacred82]

Sure. let me try a final time. There is no gameplay that you can identify with RPGs. Even C&C can be done independently from RPGs.

nothing can be done independently from RPG's if there is no such thing as an RPG genre.

Tactics, strategy, action, adventure, dungeon exploration, storytelling, you name it, you can find a game which has it and isn't an RPG.

RPGs, as I have tried to persuade people, add RPG elements, which are associated with character advancement/creation.

Define character. We don't have to define creation, I choose a hairstyle for my self-insert, I have created something. But is it a character?

So all of your 'RPG elements' have to do with characters and their advancement.

Define advancement.

Today I learned the Wings of Liberty Starcraft 2 campaign is an RPG

Actually, we've learned that there are pretty much no other genres but RPG's, because anything with an 'RPG element' in it is an RPG, making it the single dominating genre in video games. On the other hand, there is no such thing as an RPG genre. The wisdom of Kit Walker

 

[Elex]

wait so overwatch is an rpg?

 

[Big Wrangle]

If an RPG has action-based movement and/or combat, you can call it an Action RPG. End thread.

 

[Sigourn]

I have always, always said that New Vegas isn't an RPG, it's a shooter. I can quote many posts where I've said this.

A shooter in (very) basic gameplay only, because it definitely feels closer to Fallout than it does to Quake or Doom. You said, and I quote:

If we allow New Vegas to be counted as an RPG, we might as well just remove that genre from existence, it obviously doesn't mean or define anything.

If we allow New Vegas to be counted as a shooter, we might as well just remove that genre from existence, because it would be the most disappointing shooter ever made (barring Daikatana, from what I've read). How come a shooter pleases more RPG fans than it pleases FPS fans? It doesn't make any sense. By all means, feel free to call it an "action RPG", which is just another way to classify what kind of gameplay does the game have, which may make it less of an RPG, but doesn't turn it into just another shooter.

 

[Curratum]

New Vegas is an RPG, allright, it's just a pretty shitty one.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

If "video game history/studies" ever becomes an academic artistic discipline, who do you think they'll refer to and what is going to be referenced in the first books and dissertations?

 

[Sacred82]

Sacred82

Just so that you don't misinterpret or misrepresent me, I think that RPG elements can be concentrated. You can imagine a game where they are sparse and few, such as the new Thiaf, or a game like NWN2 where they are concentrated in every aspect of the game. That latter means, that in every part of the game, may it be combat or exploration or interaction, your stats/character traits contribute.

so you're measuring if something is an RPG by concentration of RPG elements. My, that sounds complicated. Like science.

Now I'm really curious, what's the list of RPG elements and what's the formula you're using to measure concentration?

Spoiler

you know, like the severe autists at RPG Watch

OTOH, you've already discounted quite a lot of things associated with RPG's, until there seemed to be nothing left but character advancement and creation. Which makes your last post seem like a fallacy, because if there's advancement - like numbers rising - of course that's gonna permeate the entire game.



If a shooter has weapon/ armor/ health upgrades, that principle isn't going to be abandoned halfway through, and it's going to be central to the gameplay, as the stats in enemies keep rising as well.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Well, I can nitpick and say that you can't build any character differently with their skill points, so the only thing you do is gain experience points, and that is a thing even CoD has now (or whatever shooter that was). That's not the point, however, since genres have to point to a cluster of specific examples, in which DOTA isn't and we all know it, exactly how New Vegas isn't. That tells me that my definition is indeed too lax, though, and I should add even more criterias, which I certainly will do.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm saying they aren't important or defining in this particular case, they are secondary to the direct shooting. Either way, the gameplay has more in common with shooters than RPGs, we can't point to any game that is considered an RPG that is like New Vegas, but we can point to all the shooters in the world and say the gameplay is similar.

At this point, your definition is really, "I know it when I see it," which is perfectly fine. But let's not pretend you're basing this on even semi-strict criteria then.

Here's the thing: there is, in fact, a cluster of specific examples for RPGs with action gameplay. Every game made by Piranha Bytes is an RPG. I was going to explain why, but I figured I'd let you do it for me:

Gothic 2 is awesome. I still haven't played Gothic 1, but I plan to. One of the best things about it is how they managed to make stats meaningful in an action-RPG. The more you increased the stats/training level the more fluid the controls and your fighting style became. They aren't great, but eehh. There were also very interesting ideas, like hand-drawn maps and the plants which increased your stats that could only be found by exploring. Exploration was handled well is what I'm trying to say, and it wasn't obtuse. There are very many things the Gothics did right, and some of them are mentioned already. A lot of RPG developers can learn a lot from them.

How is Gothic 2 an RPG but not New Vegas? You're directly controlling the character in combat, that's the core gameplay. Aiming a bow in Gothic 2 is the same as aiming a gun in F:NV. Melee combat in the Gothic games actually requires far more player skill than melee combat in F:NV. Gothic 2 certainly has better ARPG gameplay, but so what? You acknowledge that this category exists and F:NV is clearly a part of it.

I just Googled "Gothic is not an RPG," and I got merely four hits (naturally one of them was for RPG Codex, but just one!). By the way, guess who made that argument?

Spoiler

Gothic is not an RPG. It is an action game with rpg elements. In order for me to play a role my personal timing, clciking ability, and keyboard skill are irrelevant. I don't know how best to swing a sword or when, the fighter I am supposed to be playing does. If my personal reaction and dexterity are factored into combat then I am not playing a role, I am the role. Hence, I am not playing a role playing game, since I would have to play a role to be playing a role playing game, not play myself.

One of his rare moments of lucidity, unless he was a lot more cogent back in 2004.

So do you now agree with Roqua and not yourself?

In Daggerfall and Morrowind you control the direction/type of your attacks. Sure, there are dice rolls going on behind the scenes (just like New Vegas), but you could easily claim that you're merely playing yourself. Let's throw in Bloodlines and Zelda 2 and even Fable for good measure. And, of course, Ultima Underworld. We don't even need to include Deus Ex. Put them all together and we've got that cluster of specific examples you mentioned--turns out they do exist.

If these games aren't RPGs and Diablo is, I have to tell you that your main distinction is actually the camera angle. Because you do need to aim yourself in a point-and-click hack & slash game; if you fail to click on the enemy, your character will walk to the spot you clicked on, perhaps getting himself killed in the process (yes, you can auto-attack a single enemy by holding down the attack button, but how is that any different from VATS?). You're just aiming from a top down perspective rather than a first-person or third-person over-the-shoulder perspective. But I don't think you would seriously argue that the camera angle is what defines an RPG.

And since you acknowledge Gothic 2 is some kind of RPG, when you say New Vegas isn't one, my less charitable side assumes that it really comes down to the fact that you like Gothic 2 and you dislike New Vegas.

 

[Sigourn]

Melee combat in the Gothic games actually requires far more player skill than melee combat in F:NV.

Bingo. I was just thinking that, while I could direct my mother to play Fallout for me, she would be completely incapable of timing the button combinations needed to succeed at Gothic combat.

Also this:

And since you acknowledge Gothic 2 is some kind of RPG, when you say New Vegas isn't one, my less charitable side assumes that it really comes down to the fact that you like Gothic 2 and you dislike New Vegas.

It's much more easier to say a game isn't an RPG than just accept you don't like it.

 

[Lacrymas]

I did say it's an action-RPG even 2 years ago, I have since changed my position to "there is no such thing as an action-RPG, that's an oxymoron". It's not "I know it when I see it", it's how you define genres as a whole, clumping together similar things and describing what makes them similar. Saying Fallout 1-2 and Gothic are "the same genre" is inane. Roqua is correct.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Lacrymas. So in your opinion Deus Ex, Gothic and Morrowind aren't RPG's?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Even finding new items in adventure games is character development.

 

[Bladeract]

I would say they ar adventure games but there is not much in the way of puzzles. Why can't people be out and proud about liking talking simulators and interactive movies?