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Yet we aren't talking about that. We were talking about how a god of death can "prove" that he's the god of death and Rinslin said that by killing someone he'd prove that. Which is ridiculous.
That's not how the conversation goes, you are working on hearsay here. You tread in his realm and he talks to you, if you keep a low profile you are let live and if you go all rebellious against him he kills you. He doesn't "prove" you that he is God of death, which he isn't by the way, he is god of entropy.
I wasn't addressing the specific PoE2 case at all. I was correcting a grave misunderstanding of how the relationship of the mortals and gods goes, or should go. The Greeks were deathly afraid of Hades, they almost didn't speak his name, only using euphemisms, he had only a couple precincts/temples (one was at Elis), they were only opened for 1 day of the year and only to the single priest. Does that sound like any kind of relationship mortals in PoE have to their gods? Pallegina talks down to Hylea.
I wasn't addressing the specific PoE2 case at all. I was correcting a grave misunderstanding of how the relationship of the mortals and gods goes, or should go. The Greeks were deathly afraid of Hades, they almost didn't speak his name, only using euphemisms, he had only a couple precincts/temples (one was at Elis), they were only opened for 1 day of the year and only to the single priest. Does that sound like any kind of relationship mortals in PoE have to their gods? Pallegina talks down to Hylea.
I don't see your problem here. What exactly do you want? We have two separate cases showing a lot of nuance here. One is that Hylea lets Pallegina speak her down (in rebellious attitude), Hylea is supposed to be a nurturing and understanding God though. When you try the same and try to talk Rmyrgand down you are promptly killed for your attitude. So what is it that leaves you unsatisfied?
That's not how the conversation goes, you are working on hearsay here. You tread in his realm and he talks to you, if you keep a low profile you are let live and if you go all rebellious against him he kills you. He doesn't "prove" you that he is God of death, which he isn't by the way, he is god of entropy.
I'm unsatisfied because the attitude towards the gods aren't like to gods at all. It's not what the gods are doing, it's how the mortals think of them. Given that we are dealing with the gods for 2 games now, this should be expanded and explored much more than it is. And this isn't the case because people think gods should "prove their power" to the mortals and that the mortals can talk down to them. It's just simple and not interesting at all, but they keep pushing them down our throats.
I'm sorry but a slider is not the biggest motivation for another playthrough, I'm talking about the way you approach to get another ending, different routes, different interactions, maybe find a way to kill Eothas or I don't know, branch it a little, maybe they should have ditched the garbage VO and give me another route?
It's all fluff, you take a side with one faction, another comes agaisnt you, there's a lame CYAO to the big battle and from there it's the same crap, defeat the guardian, talk to Eothas, suck his dick or not, he still does what he want. This is not proper branching, it's the same crap as Mass Effect ending, chose the right color and watch some crappy ass sliders. No, there should have been a way to stop Eothas, cut the VO budget and give you a different route, it's not rocket science. Now a lot of people won't have the same motivation to replay for the story because they know whatever you do, Eothas still does whatever the fuck he wants with or without you.
I'm not talking about the final dialogue branching, I'm talking about different routes to the ending, kill Eothas before reaching the wheel, a different map, a different encounter and it shouldn't have been that costing to make, hell the main story is shorter than 5 hours, there's not much to restructurate in terms of factions. Whispering sweet words in Eothas ear and tell him to choose green because you don't like blue is not something I want to replay the game for.
I understand the point, but how many games actually do what you are requesting? If I recall correctly, Plancesape Torment, Morrowind, Fallout 1&2, New Vegas, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, System Shock, etc. do not generate an entirely new route or finale battle. Furthermore, the final boss in PoE2 is not Eothas, but rather the generated based on your faction choice. Eothas already won, similar to how Smiling Jack/Caine already won in VMB. I thought that was the point. Even MotB did not allow you to tear down the wall of the faithless if I remember correctly.
How would the Watcher even defeat Eothas without some bullshit power up? The fucker survived a volcano, a tsunami, a swarm of krakens, and can instantly steals the soul of anyone in proximity. It would require plot induced stupidity to work.
That's why people call it a shit plot, it's not our fault they made a lazy narrative where you can't change anything untill you talk to the final ''Boss''. It's similar to the phantom boy from Mass Effect 3, he gives you some made up bullshit reasons and let's you pick from 3 colors to change the fate of a planet. The main problem is that all you can do is talk to Eothas and give him some pointers, there's nothing that you can do to stop him through other means, it's not our fault the writers are incapable to come up with another branching path for the story.
The big issue with PoE 2 is that no matter what you do, you still end up at Eothas giant ear giving him pointers, same route, same interaction, you could kill the entire Arhipelago and Eothas doesn't give a shit or anyone else for that matter. And no, 40+ background sliders are not content, nobody wants to play through the entire game just to change an ending slider.
That's not how the conversation goes, you are working on hearsay here. You tread in his realm and he talks to you, if you keep a low profile you are let live and if you go all rebellious against him he kills you. He doesn't "prove" you that he is God of death, which he isn't by the way, he is god of entropy.
I'm unsatisfied because the attitude towards the gods aren't like to gods at all. It's not what the gods are doing, it's how the mortals think of them. Given that we are dealing with the gods for 2 games now, this should be expanded and explored much more than it is. And this isn't the case because people think gods should "prove their power" to the mortals and that the mortals can talk down to them. It's just simple and not interesting at all, but they keep pushing them down our throats.
I disagree in part. The original companions certainly have a relaxed view, because they know the gods are man-made. In contrast, Xoti and Teheku are pretty fervent believers, and it causes friction when Pallengina shit-talks the gods. Xoti even starts a fight, because Pallegina talks so much trash.
The Watcher can do so, because reasons. Even then, Rymrgand and Eothas can dissolve you if you talk too much shit.
That's why people call it a shit plot, it's not our fault they made a lazy narrative where you can't change anything untill you talk to the final ''Boss''. It's similar to the phantom boy from Mass Effect 3, he gives you some made up bullshit reasons and let's you pick from 3 colors to change the fate of a planet. The main problem is that all you can do is talk to Eothas and give him some pointers, there's nothing that you can do to stop him through other means, it's not our fault the writers are incapable to come up with another branching path for the story.
The big issue with PoE 2 is that no matter what you do, you still end up at Eothas giant ear giving him pointers, same route, same interaction, you could kill the entire Arhipelago and Eothas doesn't give a shit or anyone else for that matter. And no, 40+ background sliders are not content, nobody wants to play through the entire game just to change an ending slider.
But by that logic, VMB is shit because you cannot stop Caine (or stop Ming Xua from entombing you), or MotB is shit because you cannot stop the wall of the faithless and go against the gods. In Planescape Torment, you still end up dying in some manner (merge with Transcendent One or destroy yourself with dagger/belief) and killing a companion as the penultimate boss (Ignus or Vhailor) because reasons. The ending of Planescape Torment does not dramatically change (i.e., hell or nonexistence), yet people find plenty of reasons to play it.
Would it be nice? Sure, but saying it is a massive fuck up on PoE2's part, when few games have gone to that far, just seems over the top.
Pallegina shit talked them in PoE1 before anyone knew they were man-made. Should the attitude change now that we know they are man-made? Does that mean they should be feared less? Where is this leading us?
I'm unsatisfied because the attitude towards the gods aren't like to gods at all. It's not what the gods are doing, it's how the mortals think of them. Given that we are dealing with the gods for 2 games now, this should be expanded and explored much more than it is. And this isn't the case because people think gods should "prove their power" to the mortals and that the mortals can talk down to them. It's just simple and not interesting at all, but they keep pushing them down our throats.
No, the fault of Obsidian writers here are they are too stuck on theology and philosophy of existence of Gods, instead of the reality of Gods. They are also operating on a basis of Abrahamic theology, especially that of Medieval and Renaissance Neoplatonist attitudes. Not only is this misfitting and a miscategorisation, especially the examination of defiance of mortals towards Gods, they also fail at expressing this in a coherent manner.
Hylea treating Pallegina in an understanding and motherly way, or Rymrgand killing you for throwing him attitude while you tread in his realm are things they did right, not things that they did wrong. Indeed one could say these two are consistent parts of pantheon they set, while majority of what's happening in earth is the inconsistent and inaccurate ones.
This is not what you initially said or challenged by the way, you directly talked about actions of Gods towards rebellious attitude of MC, calling it petty display of power. After that you talked of another god not being as petty and criticised that, now you are talking of something entirely different. Which I agree with.
Pallegina shit talked them in PoE1 before anyone knew they were man-made. Should the attitude change now that we know they are man-made? Does that mean they should be feared less? Where is this leading us?
This is not what you initially said or challenged by the way, you directly talked about actions of Gods towards rebellious attitude of MC, calling it petty display of power. After that you talked of another god not being as petty and criticised that, now you are talking of something entirely different. Which I agree with.
From the beginning I said that every god can kill a mortal and that doesn't prove that they are the god of death because being a god of death means something else. It is a petty display of power. You started talking about other things and now I'm addressing them as well. This is not at all what I was trying to point out. I have criticized the attitude of the mortals in PoE to their gods in the past and how it's not really like to any pantheon ever, so what their divinity means is called into question. I wouldn't normally care, but this is the second game in a row Obsidian are trying to push a narrative which includes the gods.
To precise this though, he's the god of two things :
- cold (winter, entropy, starvation)
- disasters of epic scale
Which is why I summarized his portfolio as god of things gotta end and stand still forever hehe
It's just an evil deity. There always have been in fantasy.
People have fun with builds and then devs decided to nerf builds instead of buffing enemies, I foresee fall down amount of players after patch release and thousands people who butthurt because shitload classes become useless. Honestly it's worst practice of balancing for single player game, people not should feel like their characters become a useless garbage, just because devs have "Grand Strategy(R)" It's my opinion ofc, but balancing should be done with DLC at worst or on beta-testing at best. I can't belive that deadfire going to repeat vicious cycle of patches like PoE did. Poor monks, I feel sad for players who actually using them, -1 playable class from game.
what are you going to do if builds are hopelessy overpowered? Screenfuls of enemies? What if certain builds are too powerful early on? Nigh invincible goblins and rabid dogs?
But by that logic, VMB is shit because you cannot stop Caine, or MotB is shit because you cannot stop the wall of the faithless and go against the gods. In Planescape Torment, you still end up dying in some manner (merge with Transcendent One or destroy yourself with dagger/belief) and killing a companion as the penultimate boss (Ignus or Vhailor) because reasons. The ending of Planescape Torment does not dramatically change (i.e., hell or nonexistence), yet people find plenty of reasons to play it.
Would it be nice? Sure, but saying it is a massive fuck up on PoE2's part, when few games have gone to that far, just seems over the top.
It is a massive fuck up because the story is too short and badly presented, sure if it was a longer and more interesting compared with VMB or MOTB or PT but it's not even close. The main story is basically 3 islands with a total of 5-6 maps and 6 main missions that can be completed in less than 20 minutes each. Also the side-quests are not related to the story at all, basically 90% of the side content is oblivious to the fact that a giant adra god is rampaging around and it's about to destroy the dumb wheel.
It's just that we caught you butt-naked talking about stuff you have no idea about, so now you're trying to reframe it into "lol guise I was just making some general observations and totally didn't spend 2 pages ranting specifically and directly about Rymgrand's interaction with the MC"
I would say that you should have quit when you were ahead, but in your case the only way to do that would be to delete your Codex account entirely.
Except I did prove that I have extensive knowledge of Greek mythology and the people's relationship to the gods. Knowing Hades only had a couple of temples that were open only 1 day of the year is specific knowledge, too bad I have to point that out. Not that you are contributing anythng other than ratings, like always, so whatevs.
Some quotes to "prove" that I wasn't addressing the PoE2 case specifically and was only responding to Rinslin -
I meant it as a response to "how else would a god of death show you that he's the god of death?" Thanatos/Hades didn't go around killing people to show that he's the god of death.
Every god can kill a mortal without him being the god of death. Such petty displays of power say nothing and don't prove any domains. I'm also pretty sure no mortal in Greek mythology went and talked shit and threw temper tantrums at the gods.
But by that logic, VMB is shit because you cannot stop Caine, or MotB is shit because you cannot stop the wall of the faithless and go against the gods. In Planescape Torment, you still end up dying in some manner (merge with Transcendent One or destroy yourself with dagger/belief) and killing a companion as the penultimate boss (Ignus or Vhailor) because reasons. The ending of Planescape Torment does not dramatically change (i.e., hell or nonexistence), yet people find plenty of reasons to play it.
Would it be nice? Sure, but saying it is a massive fuck up on PoE2's part, when few games have gone to that far, just seems over the top.
It is a massive fuck up because the story is too short and badly presented, sure if it was a longer and more interesting compared with VMB or MOTB or PT but it's not even close. The main story is basically 3 islands with a total of 5-6 maps and 6 main missions that can be completed in less than 20 minutes each. Also the side-quests are not related to the story at all, basically 90% of the side content is oblivious to the fact that a giant adra god is rampaging around and it's about to destroy the dumb wheel.
That is an entirely different issue though. To say you disliked the quality and quantity of the writing is one thing, but to say that the game automatically shit, because the game does not branch into entirely different routes and/or drastically changing the climax, is an entirely different issue. Even Planescape Torment, VMB, System Shock 2, Arcanum, and Morrowind did not offer that level of branching.
From the beginning I said that every god can kill a mortal and that doesn't prove that they are the god of death because being a god of death means something else. It is a petty display of power. You started talking about other things and now I'm addressing them as well. This is not at all what I was trying to point out. I have criticized the attitude of the mortals in PoE to their gods in the past and how it's not really like to any pantheon ever, so what their divinity means is called into question. I wouldn't normally care, but this is the second game in a row Obsidian are trying to push a narrative which includes the gods.
I think you should play PoE2 before leveling this claim. Also you said "petty displays of power don't prove their domain" but I gave examples of Gods doing plenty of petty displays of power, especially in case of hubris. There is nothing wrong with Gods of a Pantheon indulging in petty displays of power, this is not a legitimate criticism against Gods of PoE.
The legitimate criticisms you made in last post, that is the lack of respect for divinity and authority of the Gods on the ground, as well as inability to respond properly to reality of Gods are accurate. They instead focus too much on Neoplatonist Abrahamic theology, as well as concept of faith and this is misplaced. This is not same as however Gods reacting to rebellious attitudes (I.E Hylea's understanding one and Rymrgand's punitive action), in fact those are cases where Obsidian writers actually touched the reality of Gods and their authority over mortals fittingly and accurately.
There is a mismatch and inconsistent approach of Gods as an observer that judges souls beyond death (I.E Abrahamic) vs. Gods taking action against missteps (I.E a failure of duty and ritual). They move too much between these concepts, especially when they are touching the theological and philosophical ramifications of Gods being manmade and the whole act of leaden key.
Also you said "petty displays of power don't prove their domain" but I gave examples of Gods doing plenty of petty displays of power, especially in case of hubris.
That logic doesn't follow. The gods in Greek mythology punishing mortals does not "prove" their domains or what those domains are. They can and have displayed pettiness, but not with the intention of proving themselves, nor is any proof required. That's the point.
But by that logic, VMB is shit because you cannot stop Caine, or MotB is shit because you cannot stop the wall of the faithless and go against the gods. In Planescape Torment, you still end up dying in some manner (merge with Transcendent One or destroy yourself with dagger/belief) and killing a companion as the penultimate boss (Ignus or Vhailor) because reasons. The ending of Planescape Torment does not dramatically change (i.e., hell or nonexistence), yet people find plenty of reasons to play it.
Would it be nice? Sure, but saying it is a massive fuck up on PoE2's part, when few games have gone to that far, just seems over the top.
It is a massive fuck up because the story is too short and badly presented, sure if it was a longer and more interesting compared with VMB or MOTB or PT but it's not even close. The main story is basically 3 islands with a total of 5-6 maps and 6 main missions that can be completed in less than 20 minutes each. Also the side-quests are not related to the story at all, basically 90% of the side content is oblivious to the fact that a giant adra god is rampaging around and it's about to destroy the dumb wheel.
That is an entirely different issue though. To say you disliked the quality and quantity of the writing is one thing, but to say that the game automatically shit, because the game does not offer entirely new routes and/or drastically changing the climax, is an entirely different issue. Even Planescape Torment, VMB, System Shock 2, Arcanum, and Morrowind did not offer that level of branching.
Those are games made 20 years, I expect something different from 2018, you know a little more creativity and effort, instead I'm playing a more mediocre version of BG 2 that was made two decades ago, truly inspiring.
That logic doesn't follow. The gods in Greek mythology punishing mortals does not "prove" they have domains or what those domains are. They can and have displayed pettiness, but not with the intention of proving themselves. That's the point.
Rmyrgand does not kill MC to prove his domain. Rmyrgand kills the MC because MC is overstepping his limits. Hades punishes Pirithous because Pirithous oversteps his limits by proposing to Persephone. You are again talking based on hearsay and previous (faulty) analysis.
It felt like the stalemate caused the worst endings for everyone.
