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Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

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IncendiaryDevice

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There is no "core" definition of what an RPG is. The concept of an RPG is like a doughnut. The best examples of RPGs are those that share gameplay with another genre, whether it's -

- squad tactical games (Pool of Radiance, ToEE, DMS/ Dragonfall)
- text adventure (Wizardry)
- adventure games (Ultima, PST, Fallout)
- action adventure games (BG2)
- shooters (Bloodlines, New Vegas)
- open world games like GTA (Skyrim)

But these games form a ring; at the center, if you try to make a "pure" RPG that is not hybrid in some way, you actually fall into an empty hole.

That's nice dear. What do you think about SRR: DMS?
 

HeatEXTEND

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For me, cRPG = RPG

Why would you lump every single RPG-type into one term? Why? If someone sold DMS to me as a decent cRPG, I'd be very disapointed and make sure to disregard that someone's opinion in the future. If on the otherhand it was sold to me as a decent tactical RPG, I'd only be mildly disapointed and that's it.
Yes, every RPG played on some form of computer is a "cRPG" as opposed to a "(PnP) RPG". Not the fucking point.
 

Jason Liang

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That's nice dear. What do you think about SRR: DMS?

... you realize that the majority here considers the HBS Shadowruns rpgs right? Even the Genesis Shadowrun, which doesn't even have turn-based combat, is considered a RPG.

In fact, the Genesis Shadowrun directly inspired the first two GTA games. So if open exploration is core to RPGs then explain how are the GTA games not RPGs?
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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That's nice dear. What do you think about SRR: DMS?

... you realize that the majority here considers the HBS Shadowruns rpgs right? Even the Genesis Shadowrun, which doesn't even have turn-based combat, is considered a RPG.

In fact, the Genesis Shadowrun directly inspired the first two GTA games. So if open exploration is core to RPGs then explain how are the GTA games not RPGs?

so that's a yes then, yes?
 

mondblut

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Also, all ya fags crying that you can romance gay elves in PnP RPGs probably never played anything older than Vampire: The Angsty Fatties. TSR/Gygax' back catalogue is chock full of pure dungeon crawls with hardly one NPC to infodump you the module's end goal. That's how the genre began, so bite it.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
ID out-hivering hiver in this one.

While I don't wanna get into whatsanrpg territory, he has a point in above post that SR can feel empty and bland in the environment department. They feel more like weird artifical dioramas on which something is taking place rather than an actual place in which you engage with something. I don't know how better to put it than that. Movement is very restricted, there is no real loot, no interactive objects but only hotspots, nothing much to explore. I like the SR games but thats a fact.
 

mondblut

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For the record, I never played SR. A "mission-based" template is an absolute taboo in RPG as far as I am concerned, and fancy non-interactive location design reeks of typical adventure games. Perhaps I wouldn't feel like calling them RPGs either, if they play and feel insufficiently similar to RPGs predating them.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Have you played it? Sure, no flirting, no silly jokes, no bisexual lock-picking character with a loooong backstory, and you're not a Mysterious ORphan with Powers. But you can reconquer a town infested with evil, district by district, and see how what were dungeons are now new civilized parts of town. You can infiltrate the evil side of town disguised as a monster to participate in a magic items auction, or discover that a member of the city council is a traitor and take your revenge on him, walk into a trap set up by the Zentharim, or... heck, just slaugther everybody in the temple of Tempus or the Town Hall because you can and feel like it. Gold Box achieves more with two lines of dialogue than all PoE with its incessant and self-obsessed walls of text.
I have to admit I haven't played this game, but it sounds fucking awesome.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, all ya fags crying that you can romance gay elves in PnP RPGs probably never played anything older than Vampire: The Angsty Fatties. TSR/Gygax' back catalogue is chock full of pure dungeon crawls with hardly one NPC to infodump you the module's end goal. That's how the genre began, so bite it.

there were other people, though. I've never played a pen and paper session where it was just me against the dungeon master. I know it's totally doable, but I think you'd be missing something important. All else equal, a dungeon crawl where your companions can abandon you or attack you is superior to one where they can't, at least in my opinion.
 

thesheeep

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Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There is no "core" definition of what an RPG is. The concept of an RPG is like a doughnut. The best examples of RPGs are those that share gameplay with another genre, whether it's -

- squad tactical games (Pool of Radiance, ToEE, DMS/ Dragonfall)
- text adventure (Wizardry)
- adventure games (Ultima, PST, Fallout)
- action adventure games (BG2)
- shooters (Bloodlines, New Vegas)
- open world games like GTA (Skyrim)

But these games form a ring; at the center, if you try to make a "pure" RPG that is not hybrid in some way, you actually fall into an empty hole.

That's why there's no precise line. It's fuzzy. How do you draw the line, for example, between what is a RPG and what is a hybrid like ARPG?
Baldur's Gate 2 -> Dark Alliance -> Marvel Ultimate Alliance -> Diablo 2

How can you define the line that seperates BG2 from the other 3?
Of course there is a core definition of what a pure RPG is - note that I use purity only in the definition sense, not as any judgement of quality.
However, I don't see why a pure RPG cannot also be something else besides that. Genre definitions are attributes, and a game can have multiple attributes.

Nobody would deny that BG2 or SRR has strategic elements to it, whereas Fallout has adventure elements to it.
A game can be a hybrid, and still be a pure RPG.

From your little list there, Fallout / ToEE / SRR / Wizardry (text adventure? Are you high?) / BG2 / Diablo 2 are all pure RPGs. Didn't play DA/Ultimate Alliance, so I can't comment on that.
The outcome of any action of your character(s) is determined only by their stats, you only give the order.
You also have meaningful character building and play very tangible role(s).

However, as soon as a gameplay element is in contrast to that definition, the game is no longer a pure RPG.
Skyrim, Bloodlines, New Vegas, etc. all include a large portion of player skill in determining outcomes of character actions even if stats still have an influence. Or even more, they require significant player skill to have a successful outcome. None of them can be considered pure RPGs.
Usually, as soon as the action genre comes in, the purity is lost.

I've never played a pen and paper session where it was just me against the dungeon master. I know it's totally doable, but I think you'd be missing something important. All else equal, a dungeon crawl where your companions can abandon you or attack you is superior to one where they can't, at least in my opinion.
But none of that matters when it comes to saying "it's an RPG" or not.
 
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mondblut

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there were other people, though. I've never played a pen and paper session where it was just me against the dungeon master. I know it's totally doable, but I think you'd be missing something important. All else equal, a dungeon crawl where your companions can abandon you or attack you is superior to one where they can't, at least in my opinion.

Despite all those memes from before the internet, people playing a tabletop RPG tend to be surprisingly cooperative. After all, they gathered there to win that dungeon and whack that end boss, not to grief each other. All the loot that mythic backstabbing antipaladin takes from the bodies of the rest of his party won't do him any good when he is not invited to the next gaming session.

It's like wanton killing of non-hostiles in a CRPG. Sure, you can do that in the better among them, but it will only deprive you of quests and potentially break the main story, rendering the game unfinishable. Too much a price for a few minutes of shallow lulz.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
there were other people, though. I've never played a pen and paper session where it was just me against the dungeon master. I know it's totally doable, but I think you'd be missing something important. All else equal, a dungeon crawl where your companions can abandon you or attack you is superior to one where they can't, at least in my opinion.

Despite all those memes from before the internet, people playing a tabletop RPG tend to be surprisingly cooperative. After all, they gathered there to win that dungeon and whack that end boss, not to grief each other. All the loot that mythic backstabbing antipaladin takes from the bodies of the rest of his party won't do him any good when he is not invited to the next gaming session.

It's like wanton killing of non-hostiles in a CRPG. Sure, you can do that in the better among them, but it will only deprive you of quests and potentially break the main story, rendering the game unfinishable. Too much a price for a few minutes of shallow lulz.

It doesn’t have to turn violent for there to be conflict or at least tension, especially if people are actually role playing. In my experience there was more arguing over strategy than the distribution of loot. But maybe my friends growing up were just childish assholes and our DM was a sociopath who liked to instigate shit.
 

Blaine

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Awesome. So when I say "Shadowrun is not a cRPG" I'm saying: "I know an RPG when I see it, and this isn't one".

Do you agree or not?

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG". If you're too thick to comprehend that subtle difference in thread content and destination then I have no fucking idea why you have such a jumped-up self image of yourself, because you're a complete fucking spastic.

There is no difference in thread content, subtle or otherwise, although I'm sure it pleases you to imagine that I can't comprehend your very sophisticated and thoughtful "subtlety."

When you start a thread to argue that "X is not a cRPG," you are opening a can of worms, and that can of worms is the entire debate about what constitutes a cRPG. I mean, duh. Just fucking wow, how stone-dumb are you?

By the way, as a pedant, I should inform you that "self image of yourself" is redundant phrasing, and also that "self-image" should be hyphenated.
 
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Bladeract

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There is no "core" definition of what an RPG is. The concept of an RPG is like a doughnut. The best examples of RPGs are those that share gameplay with another genre, whether it's -

- squad tactical games (Pool of Radiance, ToEE, DMS/ Dragonfall)
- text adventure (Wizardry)
- adventure games (Ultima, PST, Fallout)
- action adventure games (BG2)
- shooters (Bloodlines, New Vegas)
- open world games like GTA (Skyrim)

But these games form a ring; at the center, if you try to make a "pure" RPG that is not hybrid in some way, you actually fall into an empty hole.

That's why there's no precise line. It's fuzzy. How do you draw the line, for example, between what is a RPG and what is a hybrid like ARPG?
Baldur's Gate 2 -> Dark Alliance -> Marvel Ultimate Alliance -> Diablo 2

How can you define the line that seperates BG2 from the other 3?

Labeling something RPG doesn't make it so. It just means they think they can make the most oney marketing it that way. Just as your own labelings are incredibly arbitrary.
 

Blaine

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But what's your view on the thread topic? Yay or nay?

What a sad state of affairs when someone with a British education in English doesn't know the difference between "yay" and "yea."

You people are really slipping over there. Careful, or the continentals might get to thinking you're just as bad as the Americans.
 

Beowulf

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Could we plz stop regarding "RPG" and "cRPG" as interchangable? [...]

A pity that we can't, really.
One would would hope, that with increased CPU power we could at least replace the cold and cruel machine, that is a GM, with an AI.
 

Blaine

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Nobody regards them as interchangeable. Most people just drop the "c" for convenience, and instead specify when they're talking about tabletop RPGs as opposed to computer RPGs.
 

Roguey

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[Still waiting on Roguey 's lists...]
Pal, I left after I made my last post. Shadowrun Returns is drawing from jrpgs (which draws this aspect from ancient wrpgs like Ultima I), Bloodlines, and Mass Effect 2+ when it comes to the de-emphasis on looting things. I mean clearly there are things in the world that you pick up and put in your inventory and into your stash, but that's not a focus. In fact, back in the day, grognards thought that a campaign (whether computer game or tabletop) that put on emphasis on looting was a Monty Haul :decline:
 

Fairfax

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[Still waiting on Roguey 's lists...]
Pal, I left after I made my last post. Shadowrun Returns is drawing from jrpgs (which draws this aspect from ancient wrpgs like Ultima I), Bloodlines, and Mass Effect 2+ when it comes to the de-emphasis on looting things. I mean clearly there are things in the world that you pick up and put in your inventory and into your stash, but that's not a focus. In fact, back in the day, grognards thought that a campaign (whether computer game or tabletop) that put on emphasis on looting was a Monty Haul :decline:
Then they weren't really grognards. Loot and magic items have been a big part of D&D since the very beginning. The difference is that they used to be rare and valuable, and Monty Haul was only a DM issue. For grogs like Gygax, the real decline was in later editions making them abundant and easy to acquire, and also letting PCs create them.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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In fact, back in the day, grognards thought that a campaign (whether computer game or tabletop) that put on emphasis on looting was a Monty Haul :decline:
The term 'Monty Haul' was applied to D&D/AD&D campaigns as a critique of the type of Dungeon Master who granted his players exorbitant amounts of easily-obtained loot (and the experience points that came with it), especially if the loot also contained valuable magic items that were inteded to be rare and obtained only with great difficulty. However, loot was always the intended goal of adventure, since it was the main source of the experience points needed for character advancement. Even before Jim Ward first applied the phrase 'Monty Haul' to D&D in Dragon Magazine #14 (May 1978 "Monty Haul and His Friends at Play"), Gary Gygax had already warned against this phenomenon in the seventh (final) issue of The Strategic Review (April 1976 "D&D Is Only As Good as the DM"):

GaryGygax said:
Successful play of D & D is a blend of desire, skill and luck. Desire is often initiated by actually participating in a game. It is absolutely a reflection of the referee’s ability to maintain an interesting and challenging game. Skill is a blend of knowledge of the rules and game background as applied to the particular game circumstances favored by the referee. Memory or recall is often a skill function. Luck is the least important of the three, but it is a factor in successful play nonetheless. Using the above criteria it would seem that players who have attained a score or more of levels in their respective campaigns are successful indeed. This is generally quite untrue. Usually such meteoric rise simply reflects an incompetent Dungeonmaster.

While adventurers in a D & D campaign must grade their play to their referee, it is also incumbent upon the Dungeonmaster to suit his campaign to the participants. This interaction is absolutely necessary if the campaign is to continue to be of interest to all parties. It is often a temptation to the referee to turn his dungeons into a veritable gift shoppe of magical goodies, ripe for plucking by his players. Similarly, by a bit of fudging, outdoor expeditions become trips to the welfare department for heaps of loot. Monsters exist for the slaying of the adventurers — whether of the sort who “guard” treasure, or of the wandering variety. Experience points are heaped upon the undeserving heads of players, levels accumulate like dead leaves in autumn, and if players with standings in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s of levels do not become bored, they typically become filled with an entirely false sense of accomplishment, they are puffed up with hubris. As they have not really earned their standings, and their actual ability has no reflection on their campaign level, they are easily deflated (killed) in a game which demands competence in proportionate measure to players’ levels.

It is, therefore, time that referees reconsider their judging. First, is magic actually quite scarce in your dungeons? It should be! Likewise, treasures should be proportionate both to the levels of the dungeon and the monsters guarding them. Second, absolute disinterest must be exercised by the Dungeonmaster, and if a favorite player stupidly puts himself into a situation where he is about to be killed, let the dice tell the story and KILL him. This is not to say that you should never temper chance with a bit of “Divine Intervention,” but helping players should be a rare act on the referee’s part, and the action should only be taken when fate seems to have unjustly condemned an otherwise good player, and then not in every circumstance should the referee intervene. Third, create personas for the inhabitants of your dungeon — if they are intelligent they would act cleverly to preserve themselves and slay intruding expeditions out to do them in and steal their treasures. The same is true for wandering monsters. Fourth, there should be some high-level, very tricky and clever chaps in the nearest inhabitation to the dungeon, folks who skin adventures out of their wealth just as prospectors were generally fleeced for their gold in the Old West. When the campaign turkies flock to town trying to buy magical weapons, potions, scrolls, various other items of magical nature, get a chum turned back to flesh, have a corpse resurrected, or whatever, make them pay through their proverbial noses. For example, what would a player charge for like items or services? Find out, add a good bit, and that is the cost you as referee will make your personas charge. This will certainly be entertaining to you, and laying little traps in addition will keep the players on their collective toes. After all, Dungeonmasters are entitled to a little fun too! Another point to remember is that you should keep a strict account of time. The wizard who spends six months writing scrolls and enchanting items is OUT of the campaign for six months, he cannot play during these six game months, and if the time system is anywhere reflective of the proper scale that means a period of actual time in the neighborhood of three months. That will pretty well eliminate all that sort of foolishness. Ingredients for scroll writing and potion making should also be stipulated (we will treat this in an upcoming issue of SR or in a D & D supplement as it should be dealt with at length) so that it is no easy task to prepare scrolls or duplicate potions.

When players no longer have reams of goodies at their fingertips they must use their abilities instead, and as you will have made your dungeons and wildernesses far more difficult and demanding, it will require considerable skill, imagination, and intellectual exercise to actually gain from the course of an adventure. Furthermore, when magic is rare it is valuable, and only if it is scarce will there be real interest in seeking it. When it is difficult to survive, a long process to gain levels, when there are many desired items of magical nature to seek for, then a campaign is interesting and challenging. Think about how much fun it is to have something handed to you on a silver platter — nice once in a while but unappreciated when it becomes common occurrence. This analogy applies to experience and treasure in the D & D campaign.

It requires no careful study to determine that D & D is aimed at progression which is geared to the approach noted above. There are no monsters to challenge the capabilities of 30th level lords, 40th level patriarchs, and so on. Now I know of the games played at CalTech where the rules have been expanded and changed to reflect incredibly high levels, comic book characters and spells, and so on. Okay. Different strokes for different folks, but that is not D & D. While D & D is pretty flexible, that sort of thing stretches it too far, and the boys out there are playing something entirely different — perhaps their own name “Dungeons & Beavers,” tells it best. It is reasonable to calculate that if a fair player takes part in 50 to 75 games in the course of a year he should acquire sufficient experience points to make him about 9th to 11th level, assuming that he manages to survive all that play. The acquisition of successively higher levels will be proportionate to enhanced power and the number of experience points necessary to attain them, so another year of play will by no means mean a doubling of levels but rather the addition of perhaps two or three levels. Using this gauge, it should take four or five years to see 20th level. As BLACKMOOR is the only campaign with a life of five years, and GREYHAWK with a life of four is the second longest running campaign, the most able adventurers should not yet have attained 20th level except in the two named
campaigns. To my certain knowledge no player in either BLACKMOOR or GREYHAWK has risen above 14th level.

By requiring players to work for experience, to earn their treasure, means that the opportunity to retain interest will remain. It will also mean that the rules will fit the existing situation, a dragon, balrog, or whatever will be a fearsome challenge rather than a pushover. It is still up to the Dungeonmaster to make the campaign really interesting to his players by adding imaginative touches, through exertion to develop background and detailed data regarding the campaign, and to make certain that there is always something new and exciting to learn about or acquire. It will, however, be an easier task. So if a 33rd level wizard reflects a poorly managed campaign, a continuing mortality rate of 50% per expedition generally reflects over-reaction and likewise a poorly managed campaign. It is unreasonable to place three blue dragons on the first dungeon level, just as
unreasonable as it is to allow a 10th level fighter to rampage through the upper levels of a dungeon rousting kobolds and giant rats to gain easy loot and experience. When you tighten up your refereeing be careful not to go too far the other way.
 

Roguey

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Tim Cain criticized Fallout 2 for being Monty Haul because they added more weapons and armors :M http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=7

Killzig: What did you think of the Advanced Power Armor?

Tim Cain: Killzig, FO is going a little monty haul

Tim Cain: My idea is explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a postnuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.
 

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