1eyedking The descriptive text in Planescape would be considered bad writing by novelists

[fantadomat]

Yes, let's tell them they were born stupid. A real great compliment.

I know someone who might have been.

They're talented because they work hard, there's no luck in that you goddamn spastic.

My argument is not about working hard. 99% perspiration and all that. The argument is that formal education does not and can not give you talent, especially in the area of arts. You are either born a great artist or not. And even then, if you don't hone your talent you can fail.

Formal education exists to bring the mediocre to a functional level in the society. Think of it as a social service. It really cannot train the truly talented. Which is why the parental role is so important for kids. 9/10 geniuses in modern times would have extraordinary parenting.

That's an issue that came about during the introduction of individualism in art in the Renaissance. In ancient societies, the "creative" aspect of the work of art was determined by the tradition. All the artist had to do is copy the model handed to him, so even people of "average" talent could fulfill their duty. Great artists still existed, but in general you didn't need a Michelangelo to paint a medieval icon. A person of normal talents could paint a great icon provided they had learned the meaning and essence of the forms and models he was meant to reproduce. Many monks in the Orthodox church still maintain that tradition today.

Nowadays that is insufficient, mostly because the art forms themselves are limited. You need true creative genius to brake through those limitations or the art becomes essentially empty formalism. This is a double edged sword because lesser artists would be better off following pre-established models than attempt individualism when they are incapable of creating something unique and worthwhile due to their lack of creative talents. This is the leading cause of hipsterism.

I agree with you. We live in the worst time to be a genius in any sphere. Pearls lost among sea of mediaocracy,the age of consumerism is a scourge for creativity. We live in time where mediocre scientist like Hawking and scammers like Musk are proclaimed as geniuses,while actual inventions and innovations are swept aside. The same is for the arts,the best art is what sells best. I doubt that i will read a good new book in the next 50 years. From time to time i do buy new books to try out,lets just say that i don't know the name of their authors after i read them.

 

[Naveen]

I'm torn. I understand what OP is saying but his examples and explanation suck; some are so wrong he has to be trolling. What a conundrum.

But yes, a copy editor and proofer should probably go over most video game texts, like they do (or should) in any other medium. For what is worth, I don't think Deionarra's description is wrong or too long, and I believe it doesn't need significant improvements. This is the original:

"You see a strikingly beautiful ghostly form before you; her arms are crossed, and her eyes are closed. She has long, flowing hair, and her gown seems stirred by some ethereal breeze. As you watch, she stirs slightly, and her eyes flicker."

This is fine, although "a strikingly beautiful ghostly form" is a bit of a mouthful and "stirs" appears twice; OP's alternative, on the other hand, is bad. Still, I see little point in saying that her arms are crossed (they aren't in the game, anyway,) and I'm not sure what "her eyes flicker" means given what she does next (she opens them and blinks)... But if I had to edit something, I guess I'd do this:

"A strikingly beautiful ghostly woman appears before you, her long hair and gown waving as if moved by an ethereal breeze. (Optional: She is resting placidly with) Her eyes are closed, but as you watch her, she begins to stir/rouse gently."

But really, this is nitpicking and a matter of personal style too. There are a lot of worse books out there, even by professional authors. The thing I remember about PST is a lot of unnecessary ellipses (the "...") though; those should probably be edited out.

 

[laclongquan]

Salvatore? He doesnt deserve hatred. What I have for him is utter indifference after I tried once or twice his works just to see what's the fuss about. Still, I do understand people have different taste. Even still, nothing for him~

Back to topic: PST has quite a few descriptive writings that are still standing out today, even after all the books I have read since 1999. Deionarra's parts are obvious, but the general item description and quests are even more so. The Rule of Three, The Hag and Three Wishes, Annah's flirting with TNO and admit that the embalming smell on him turn her on, Fall From Grace and discussion of her fall from grace~ etc and etc...

Mind you, both TNO and Dakkon's conclusion from the hidden teachings of Zerthimon is strange to me even to this day. I suspect that those hidden teachings come from the First Incarnation who invented the whole thing to put into the artifact, and 1st later on put a twist on the explaination and embed it deep inside Dakkon way back when that he's probabbly no longer remember.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I assume the crossed arms part is to suggest she's in a funeral pose, as in:

The fact that they're not crossed in the game is not really relevant... describing things that wouldn't have the same effect if shown or that would be difficult to show is actually a good thing. An extra animation just for this scene would be both a waste of time and would not have the same effect as a description.

Despite all this "show don't tell" stuff being thrown around as a blanket term, some things really can't be shown and some things would never have the same effect when shown instead of being told.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Videogames should be more like movies and less like books.

Yeah well, Torment proved that's not the case

How?

By being actually gud, where as all those attempts at making games closer to films has led to utter failure after utter failure.

At a basic level, part of the problem is that anything that takes control away from the player is bad. Torment didn't do that. Cinematic games have to by necessity.

 

[Bladeract]

I will never understand the affection people have for Salvatore, even those who claim to dislike him. As far as I’m concerned, this is all garbage tier work that gives the genre a bad name. But whatever else you might think of him, Gaider can write dialogue that at least bears a passing resemblance to something a human being might say. Salvatore cannot. Bizarrely, over decades in the industry, anytime his characters talk it’s almost stunning how bad it is.

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Archmage_Sample.pdf

I just inflicted some samples of both authors on myself. Salvatore tries and fails to establish a faux-epic tone and it’s really fucking grating. Gaider’s prose is smoother, even as it’s very clear that he’s writing young adult fiction with young adult characters for a young adult audience. Gaider knows he’s a hack and he doesn’t make it worse by trying to do things that are beyond his ability. Salvatore is only superior if you think that his work is elevated by the author’s cringe inducing attempts to ape Tolkien.

Gaider tries to do something unremarkable (also undesirable) and he mostly seems to succeed at hitting that very low bar. Salvatore tries to do something better, but he fails miserably. They’re both bad in different ways and YMMV, but sentence for sentence reading Salvatore is painful; reading Gaider is merely mind numbing.

And I would hesitate before comparing Salvatore favorably to game writers. We have examples of his own writing within the medium: the lore for Amalur. I can’t bring myself to read more of his shit but I would be surprised if it’s any better than your average RPG writer.

Salvatore is a great example of why all the would be complainers about awesome writing style and chick lit/twitter lit fuckwits should eat a dick. It's true he has shitty dialog, it's true there is nothing great about his writing style. Still though, he does have something almost all these idiots lack: he has some creativity and shit actually happens in his books.

If you have that little spark of creativity, however tiny, plus the patience to actually build it into a coherent whole, then it trumps all the chick lit theses in the world that try to have clever style and make some edgy political point but ultimately just don't go anywhere.

McCuck is the diametric opposite, and is 100% style over substance. Unfortunately you can't polish a skittering rectum centipede, no matter what style you use to dress it up it's still boring pointless fucking nonsense. Anything you do takes thought and work to make it worthwhile, simply piling out as many words as possible and "writing skills" isn't going to do it. Stephen King is a good example. He has a lot of good ideas, and those can stand his rambling style for quite a lot of pages before it gets annoying, but when he takes truly shitty ideas in some of his short stories, it is just hard to wade through in spite of no doubt being a very good writer indeed by nearly every account. And that's the problem with all these Twitter Lit beings, they either didn't read or actively hate all the classics, and they are creatively bankrupt and totally empty.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

We live in the worst time to be a genius in any sphere. Pearls lost among sea of mediaocracy,the age of consumerism is a scourge for creativity. We live in time where mediocre scientist like Hawking and scammers like Musk are proclaimed as geniuses,while actual inventions and innovations are swept aside. The same is for the arts,the best art is what sells best. I doubt that i will read a good new book in the next 50 years. From time to time i do buy new books to try out,lets just say that i don't know the name of their authors after i read them.

That's when I start rolling my eyes and stop reading what you have to say. You take this nostalgic world view to its logical conclusion and you end up having to say that everything is worse, that intelligent people are dumb, that geniuses are not geniuses, etc., despite a world of evidence to the contrary. It's like a reductio that you gladly accept because you are so full or rethoric and ideologic nonsense. Yes, some things are worse, but others improved.

More time should be spent on actually letting the player interact with things.

Interactionistfags, LOL.

 

[Bladeract]

In modern age of twisted parasitic capitalism, slave mentality and virtue signaling all the mediocrities will gang up on any genius to exclude them as much as possible because they can't compete with him and they are easily replaceable. The whole crowd is a giant circle jerk that ensures people get hired not for talent, but because of the way that they do things, their political views, and how well they support the rest of the group. The whole point of the painful abortion of twitter 'novelists' is a kind of twisted pomzi scheme of medicre hacks banding together against everyone else and drowning out the visibility of anyone who manages to simply be a good writer, and Yahweh help him if a guy is a good writer but doesn't fit i exactly to their crowd and embrace each meme, or like with Lovecraft they will mercilessly tear him apart at every turn.

 

[Lyric Suite]

despite a world of evidence to the contrary.

Like what?

 

[Parabalus]

Yes, let's tell them they were born stupid. A real great compliment.

I know someone who might have been.

They're talented because they work hard, there's no luck in that you goddamn spastic.

My argument is not about working hard. 99% perspiration and all that. The argument is that formal education does not and can not give you talent, especially in the area of arts. You are either born a great artist or not. And even then, if you don't hone your talent you can fail.

Formal education exists to bring the mediocre to a functional level in the society. Think of it as a social service. It really cannot train the truly talented. Which is why the parental role is so important for kids. 9/10 geniuses in modern times would have extraordinary parenting.

That's an issue that came about during the introduction of individualism in art in the Renaissance. In ancient societies, the "creative" aspect of the work of art was determined by the tradition. All the artist had to do is copy the model handed to him, so even people of "average" talent could fulfill their duty. Great artists still existed, but in general you didn't need a Michelangelo to paint a medieval icon. A person of normal talents could paint a great icon provided they had learned the meaning and essence of the forms and models he was meant to reproduce. Many monks in the Orthodox church still maintain that tradition today.

Nowadays that is insufficient, mostly because the art forms themselves are limited. You need true creative genius to brake through those limitations or the art becomes essentially empty formalism. This is a double edged sword because lesser artists would be better off following pre-established models than attempt individualism when they are incapable of creating something unique and worthwhile due to their lack of creative talents. This is the leading cause of hipsterism.

I agree with you. We live in the worst time to be a genius in any sphere. Pearls lost among sea of mediaocracy,the age of consumerism is a scourge for creativity. We live in time where mediocre scientist like Hawking and scammers like Musk are proclaimed as geniuses,while actual inventions and innovations are swept aside. The same is for the arts,the best art is what sells best. I doubt that i will read a good new book in the next 50 years. From time to time i do buy new books to try out,lets just say that i don't know the name of their authors after i read them.

You forgot to link your blog where you disprove Hawking and utterly expose Musk. Please do, for our reading entertainment.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Scientists themselves will disprove Hawking, like they disprove anything.

I'm more concerned with people actually believing Neil deGrasse Tyson is a scientist.

 

[Bladeract]

Hawking has been disproved for some time. Probably every single thing he postulated is now disproved.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Let's not take this argument in that direction. We all know what each of us are going to say on that subject.

I'm more concerned with the dearth of true artistic achievement.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Scientists themselves will disprove Hawking, like they disprove anything.

In modern age of twisted parasitic capitalism.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, i disagree. I think greatness can only exist alongside the moral, so to speak. This is why genius no longer exists. It is not so much that human beings have grown stupid. The problem is that they have become rotten.

 

[Life of the Party]

Before disproving Hawking, we must first define RPG.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I'm more concerned with the dearth of true artistic achievement.

Just out of curiosity, how these sculptures would be rated by your "superior" taste?

 

[Sigourn]

At a basic level, part of the problem is that anything that takes control away from the player is bad. Torment didn't do that. Cinematic games have to by necessity.

You misunderstood what I said.

Books tell. Films show. Videogames should show instead of telling. Instead of describing an NPC in detail, like Numenera does, SHOW me that NPC in detail. Because unlike a book, every NPC in Numenera and other RPGs looks exactly the same. But videogames are a visual medum, and so telling me what an NPC looks like only goes to show the game itself is fairly shit at portraying unique characteristics.

Imagine if Morte had a generic human model, but the game told us "you see a floating skull". That's essentially what goes on in Torment.

 

[FeelTheRads]

At a basic level, part of the problem is that anything that takes control away from the player is bad. Torment didn't do that. Cinematic games have to by necessity.

You misunderstood what I said.

Books tell. Films show. Videogames should show instead of telling. Instead of describing an NPC in detail, like Numenera does, SHOW me that NPC in detail. Because unlike a book, every NPC in Numenera and other RPGs looks exactly the same. But videogames are a visual medum, and so telling me what an NPC looks like only goes to show the game itself is fairly shit at portraying unique characteristics.

Imagine if Morte had a generic human model, but the game told us "you see a floating skull". That's essentially what goes on in Torment.

Which Torment is that?

Also, in an isometric game you can't really describe a character by "showing". You can't translate the descriptions from PST to "showing".

 

[fantadomat]

We live in the worst time to be a genius in any sphere. Pearls lost among sea of mediaocracy,the age of consumerism is a scourge for creativity. We live in time where mediocre scientist like Hawking and scammers like Musk are proclaimed as geniuses,while actual inventions and innovations are swept aside. The same is for the arts,the best art is what sells best. I doubt that i will read a good new book in the next 50 years. From time to time i do buy new books to try out,lets just say that i don't know the name of their authors after i read them.

That's when I start rolling my eyes and stop reading what you have to say. You take this nostalgic world view to its logical conclusion and you end up having to say that everything is worse, that intelligent people are dumb, that geniuses are not geniuses, etc., despite a world of evidence to the contrary. It's like a reductio that you gladly accept because you are so full or rethoric and ideologic nonsense. Yes, some things are worse, but others improved.

More time should be spent on actually letting the player interact with things.

Interactionistfags, LOL.

No, dump people think they are smart and know best. When they are confronted by a smart person they simply say that the person is stupid and keep on telling themself that they know best.

I'm more concerned with the dearth of true artistic achievement.

Just out of curiosity, how these sculptures would be rated by your "superior" taste?

Total haram,should be broken to bits,shows more than woman's eyes!

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'm more concerned with the dearth of true artistic achievement.

Just out of curiosity, how these sculptures would be rated by your "superior" taste?

Some of them are well done on a formal level, none of them strike me in any particular way. I find them preferable to any modernist crap, but that's about it.

BUT, as i said, i'm more of a music guy, never really explored the visual arts much.

I've also adopted a view point that makes me less receptive to individualism in art than i used to be. I'm sort of tired of art viewed purely for the sake of art and i'm sort of tired of individual expression as well. I think the art of the middle ages was wholly superior to anything from the Renaissance onward, despite the sudden increase in technical complexity and difficulty that arose during this shift. This evolution in formal complexity and virtuosity came at the expense of something greater in my view.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

No, dump people think they are smart and know best. When they are confronted by a smart person they simply say that the person is stupid and keep on telling themself that they know best.

It baffles me how many geniuses I find on the internets on a daily basis. They endorse the most caricatural cultural diagnoses from their magnificent armchairs in order to cultivate some delusional aristocratic highbrow internet persona. I wonder when their actually read some fucking book and do some actual shit in the real world since they spend all their time trying to maintain their virtual appearances. Imagine a person who thinks this way and need to face the reality afterwards. It must be depressing.

 

[Zer0wing]

Is this still going? Yeah, not qualified by absolute nobodies in this industry. Video games in general and Planescape: Torment in particular wouldn't qualify as anything good for novel or movie writers because A)They're up their own asses/really scared of computers taking their job but fail to realize - B)Their writing methods fail in video game format, especially in RPGs, of all genres => they're not the authority here.

 

[Bladeract]

No, dump people think they are smart and know best. When they are confronted by a smart person they simply say that the person is stupid and keep on telling themself that they know best.



Total haram,should be broken to bits,shows more than woman's eyes!

People's personalities ie their feelz, have little to do with whether they are smart or not and a manager who is not total fuckwit can manage to incorporate various personalities on the same team so long as they actually can do work. That is why you measure if someone is smart or at least knows how to do a job. Which is easy for technical stuff at least, if not for something like writers.

 

[Zer0wing]

Of anyone, I'd rather read opinion of a real writer, the one bold enough to tarnish his reputation with video game writing. Like Harlan Ellison.