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A question For those who keep saying Popamole ?

Do video games provides great RPG experience compared to Tabletop RPGs ?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

DexRiwus

Novice
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
59
Tabletop RPGs are closer to Paradox's strategy games than they are to computer RPGs.
Tabletops are mostly multiplayer fun with friends (with 200 page long manual as prerequisite), while most CRPGs are single-player booklike/movielike experiences, where you can steer the story in the direction you want it to go, directly inserting your own details on the way (guy was robbed/killed etc.) (they have more in common with choose your own adventure books than tabletops), sometimes topped with some butchered tabletop mechanics.
 
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Fedora Master

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It kinda depends on your TT group, doesn't it? If you have an experienced group of people willing to put effort into their ROLEplaying of course it'll beat out CRPGs. If your friends are all inexperienced or worse "that guys" on the other hand...
 
Unwanted

logan

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Jan 6, 2018
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Are people confusing RTwP(like Baldurs gate,Icewind dale) with "Realtime/Turn based" from Might and Magic 6,7,8 and arcanum ?

I agree that the combat in arcanum and might and magic 6,7,8 are pretty bad but i see no problem with RTwP in baldurs gate and icewind dale.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Can you explain why it's "provide a" instead of just "provide"?

Without the "provide a", you get "Do video games provide great RPG experience compared to Tabletop RPGs"

This sounds wrong to me, but fuck if I can explain why. Crispy is our resident Grammar Lord, so maybe he can tell you why.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Are people confusing RTwP(like Baldurs gate,Icewind dale) with "Realtime/Turn based" from Might and Magic 6,7,8 and arcanum ?

No.

then explains me why RTwP is garbage ?

It usually takes a system that is meant to be turn based (like D&D in case of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights) and makes it real time, therefore screwing up the flow and mechanics of the system by no small extent (just look at how terribly cumbersome it is to cast area effect spells in the Infinity Engine games). Most RtwP systems are more clusterfucky and less tactical than turn based systems, and also less action-y than pure real time systems. They're a half-assed compromise between turn based and real time, which doesn't fully reach the strengths of either type of system and sits awkwardly in between.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Are people confusing RTwP(like Baldurs gate,Icewind dale) with "Realtime/Turn based" from Might and Magic 6,7,8 and arcanum ?

No.

then explains me why RTwP is garbage ?

I'll let the codex explain.

The arguments in favor of RTw/P are typically arguments that assume mediocrity, like the fact that meaninglessly easy or poorly designed fights are made less intolerable than in TB - oh, joy.

RTWP just is a complete and total failure. AI design in every RT game is so shitty that playing against(or with) computer A"I" controlled players is a joke. With turn based play at least even the crappy A"I" routines had more time in which the algorithms were able to compare more potential solutions and pick a possibly decent one, v. the spam rush that is RTWP or plain RT w/o P.

Even if there existed a decent A"I" it still wouldn't be very fun as there are many control structures/interfaces that will always just put a human player at a disadvantage v. a computer A"I" which never has to actually look or move a mouse pointer, etc.

That said, if your goal is to make an action game(e.g. FPS, shooter, etc.), strategy and a decent A"I" never enter into the equation to begin with, and therefore RT[W|WO]P is the obvious choice, but the same choice has just about ruined every other genre as far as "main" stream games go. Single character action RPGs with RT combat can also make a decent attempt at something that approaches a true RPG, although I haven't seen this successfully acomplished very often.

If RT combat is so great for party-based cRPGs, why does it need the crutch of pause?

(The Infinity Engine's) RTwP always seemed like the worst of the two combat models:
"Hey, you got your real-time in my turn-based!"
"No, you got your turn-based in my real-time!"
"Wait, this tastes like shit ..."
[Of course most on this board are probably way too young to catch the reference ... ]

The IE/NWN system is the worst possible system you could create and it's not because it's non-TB. If you desperately want RT at least have a speed control option: 1/4 speed, 1/10 speed, double speed or whatever. Instead they force two inadequate options, either to play in stupidly fast RT where you can't control a thing or pause. How difficult would it be to implement speed control?


RTWP does not work for me because it is neither one thing nor the other.

I either want to play tactically or not, but not a bit of both. If I am playing tactically then I want to control everything, which means I will be pausing a lot, which means the real-time element is kind of pointless.

A lot depends on the style of the game. In Baldur's Gate / IWD I did not mind the RTWP because you could see everything on the screen. It still gets annoying from time to time, such as in dungeons with traps because the RT aspect means that you know some AI controlled character is going to pathfind through a trap. That does not happen in true TB because you even control where they walk.

In 1st/3rd person games like Kotor, RTWP is basically a pain in the ass. As soon as one of your characters moves out of your eye range, you just know they are going to do something dumb and you would pause it, except you cannot see them. Knowing where your people are in relation to each other can be a pain, as can targeting a particular enemy. Luckily, Kotor was are so tactics-lite that you can pretty much play RT almost all the time. And for NWN I just had my own character and no-one else to worry about: I could not stomach using companions because of the aforementioned control issues.

Part of it is playstyle too. In a TB game, nothing happens until you click "move". This allows you to relax more, since you know everyone is going to do what you said and then you get to assess the situation all over. In RTWP you have to constantly watch everything with your finger on the pause. Sometimes, not being ready to pause can mean death, so you cannot let your attention waver.

It usually takes a system that is meant to be turn based (like D&D in case of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights) and makes it real time, therefore screwing up the flow and mechanics of the system by no small extent (just look at how terribly cumbersome it is to cast area effect spells in the Infinity Engine games). Most RtwP systems are more clusterfucky and less tactical than turn based systems, and also less action-y than pure real time systems. They're a half-assed compromise between turn based and real time, which doesn't fully reach the strengths of either type of system and sits awkwardly in between.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Generally RTwP is the worst of both worlds, taking turn-based mechanics and making them run in sequence to give the illusion of real-time combat, while giving you the pause feature as a built-in cheat. Games would be better off implementing pure turn based combat (but making it smooth and speedy) or developing a true real time system and obviating the need for pause.

That said, games such as Darklands, Ultima 7, and Legend are well known for being casual popamole trash................
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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A general rule for deciding whether to make your game turn-based or real time:

Single-character RPG without companions = real time
Party RPG where you manage all characters = turn based
You're incapable of designing a good combat system = RtwP
 

DJOGamer PT

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whats the problem with RTwP ?

The point of Turn Based combat is to make solid and meaningful decisions that last until the end of the confrontation. It asks for patience and dedication.
This is ideal to games where you control multiple characters, but very boring to games where you control only 1 - not to mention very hard to make a challenging but fair game experience and a RPG system that isn't easily broken.

Real Time combat is all about the moment-to-moment gameplay, which means the game must have very fast and direct consequences for the player's actions and also a good degree of interaction.
Overall quick thinking and improvisation are more valued over long thought out tactics. As such controlling multiple PC's becomes a unenjoyable mess.

Real Time with Pause combat is an aberration!
It has neither the strong points of one or the other. Shit it was no fucking point whatsoever other than to try and pander to a wider audience.
The Real Time part is lost because you can pause the action at will, destroying any tension or adrenaline you could have experienced in a game such as Deus Ex or Severance. Plus in these games you control an entire group of characters.
And any chance the game had of coming close to the nuances of Turn Based combat can't happen because the game is still played in Real Time, there are no turns and decisions don't have as much as a heavy impact.
Ultimately RTwP is simply trash, and only someone who has no understating of game's systems would think this is in any way "good design".

games such as Darklands ... being casual popamole trash................

The only really big problem of Darklands is that it's combat is in Real Time.
 
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Lurker47

Savant
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Jul 30, 2017
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Location
Texas
"Popamole" always seemed like it referred to bottom-of-the-barrel FPS's which in RPG's, is most of them. And just kind of in general.
 

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