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People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Those small characters were so good, even very small ones like that girl selling plates. They felt alive.

Fucking salutes to MCA for that.

:codexisforindividualswithgenderidentityissues:
 

Rev

Arcane
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
1,180
Chris Avellone would you like to work with Sawyer again, if he was not with Obsidian anymore (since you don't want to do anything with Obs)? What roles do you think would be the best fit for both of you in that project?

Second question: now that you said you made yourself a lot of money thanks to freelancing, how are the chances of seeing you create an all-star RPG superstudio with all the great designers you can get on board? Can we all hope or am I just fabulously optimistic?
 
Unwanted

Bladeract

It's Neckbeard Shitlord. Again.
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Very interesting discussion but I do take some minor issue with the comments about the box cover art.

Baldur's Gate is one of the worst box covers ever made, I initially had no clue what the game was about or that it was even DnD. So compared to that cover the Torment cover is pure genius. Unfortunately, the Torment cover is not that great either. It made me think that instead of a standard party based game you would have a single player game, so I totally ignored the game until it was 10 bucks and then picked it up. I also don't remember it saying anything about DnD on the cover at all on the original in those cardboard sleeves.

Baldur%27s_Gate_box.PNG


What is this game? Who made it? What's it about? You have to read the fine print to even figure out who developed and published it, let alone that it is a DnD game. And WTF is a forgotten realm? Awful!

IfxfCvY.jpg


This one at least caught my eye, though it suffered the same problems. If it even said DnD on the cover at all it was microscopic. Plus like BG there is no action of any kind so it does not really even tell you this is some kind of RPG in any way. And a double on the WTF is a planescape? I initially had zero idea this was a DnD game. Looking closer it did not look like a game where you make a party so I cooled on it considerably right away, which turned out to be correct and for my taste a big strike against it. BG series was already a disappointment not being turnbased, if anything the gameplay in this one was even more dilatory.

Pool-of-Radiance-SSI-Gold-Box.jpg


Now this here is a good game box cover! What is it? DnD RPG! Plus a cool sounding name that does not sound like a game that involves wearing a gimp mask like Torment does., or totally random and meaningless like Baldur's Gate seems. It has an air of mystery and the the game is actually about the thing in the title. You can even see who made the game right away, like every other game box ever except for ones made by BIS for some reason. SSI, wow I know what that is. I've played like a hundred of their games, I should get this one too.

I also have to take a little issue with the whole Henkel and Torment thing that keeps coming up. It just sounds like basically one guy taking credit for the entire production and the guy he doesn't like did nothing at all except wreck the game by being a glory hog and sticking himself on the cover. I doubt that is the case and not what Henkel claims in his Matt Chat interview where he says he was sort of forced into it. Regardless, the cover is a masterpiece compared to those stupid BG covers, which are absolutely the worst RPG covers ever. M&M 7, now that was a great cover! And to answer the one guy, yes back in the 80s and 90s people shopped in stores and covers were important. Back then you competed not just against other RPGs but against the huge myriad of great games from many genres, so if you could not make it clear what your game is and why it's supposed to be cool then it will get ignored. RPGs like Gold Box series, M&M series, Ultima series, and even the later Wizardries all had absolutely amazing box art back then and they needed it to stand out.

At this point we can be kind of sure that McComb didn't do jack for Torment because he seems to be completely horrible once you actually hear him talk. Avellone no doubt did a lot on Torment, but let's face it Torment is head and shoulers...and waist, and knees above anything else he was ever involved in. Henkel OTOH was on a bunch of other great games so I would think he must be able to take some credit. He also does not try to take undue credit with it and just claims it was a team effort yet does not badmouth Avellone any. So another version I could imagine being true after hearing about the 'culture' at BIS and Obsidian is that Henkel came in, was a bit bossy and made Avellone hate him, tried to force the slackers to actually do some work, complained about nepotism and stupidity of useless individuals like Feargus, and thereby got railroaded out for actually working hard and doing his job correctly. Then Avellone game undue credit to some of the useless members like McComb just because they are friends and now the lie is kind of exposed since the proof is in the pudding as far as McComb goes. So Avellone complains about a lot of the neoptism and stuff but also is a bit of a perpetuator himself.

And ultimately, even if he did the whole project on his own which even he does not claim, what has he done lately? I don't doubt the guy's work ethic and on a personal level he seems like a cool guy, but where is the post-Torment awesomeness that the awesome guy who made torment was supposed to bring? I just don't see it. NWN 2 was a turgid dong, and MOTB was just mediocre. Nothing else is even worth talking about, I don't think any of it qualifies as an RPG except in the bizarro universe where games like Fallout 3 are RPGs.
 
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Bohr

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What is this game? Who made it? What's it about? You have to read the fine print to even figure out who developed and published it, let alone that it is a DnD game. And WTF is a forgotten realm? Awful!

I wouldn't say it's my favourite cover ever, but back then Forgotten Realms was pretty well known, almost synonymous with D&D in many eyes (even if it wasn't the most interesting D&D setting). Not sure why they didn't add a larger D&D mention, but I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC was involved in that decision, over the years they (and TSR before them) seemed to emphasise the FR brand over the D&D brand more and more, perhaps the marketing types thought D&D still had a few negative associations from the crap that went down in the 80s. That might be interesting to read up on, actually. Even looking back at my FR books from the late 80s it seemed clear what they wanted to emphasise, although at least those still had a more visible AD&D tag for anyone with your preferences

xuxvabPM_o.jpg
 
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Unwanted

Bladeract

It's Neckbeard Shitlord. Again.
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You are right and I overstated the case on the FR part. It has been a long time since I picked up those games obviously. I was initially confused by this at the time, though. FR was not something instantly recognizable to me, though they had been pushing it a while. For things like ads you need to get everything across in thirty seconds or better yet 10 or else you lost the person., and there were no sites like codex back then to point out which games were good.
 
Developer
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Very interesting discussion but I do take some minor issue with the comments about the box cover art.

Baldur's Gate is one of the worst box covers ever made, I initially had no clue what the game was about or that it was even DnD. So compared to that cover the Torment cover is pure genius. Unfortunately, the Torment cover is not that great either. It made me think that instead of a standard party based game you would have a single player game, so I totally ignored the game until it was 10 bucks and then picked it up. I also don't remember it saying anything about DnD on the cover at all on the original in those cardboard sleeves.

I agree. I do think the Infinity Engine games (including IWD) went through a progression of looks that got better over time.

On its own, the BG cover isn’t great, I agree.

What I was referring to (and may have stated badly) in my post concerning this was the cover pattern-consistency was what was important – it’s unfortunate, but people will buy things they are comfortable with, and a cover that promised another Infinity Engine game (which people were loving) in a different setting and they could tell that in a single look was probably a better way to go.

I’d argue the “goldbox games” did a much better thing by keeping colors and the presentation consistent, too – there’s a reason they’re called the goldbox games.

My point on the Torment cover is that it was eye-catching, but not in a “I’ll take a risk and buy this" way. I thought that would have been much less of a risk if we stuck with the symbol-covers the Infinity Engine games were known for and kept the pattern going (like with Icewind Dale).
 

Lycra Suit

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Would the people looking for an Isometric text heavy RPG find Torment's cover eye catching though? It's an in-your-face cover for a game who's perspective is the opposite. Infinity engine boxes had this esoteric, grimoire look to them and I think that it acted as a fitting symbol in the audience's mind. At least that's how I perceive things.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I'm an anecdotal data point in favour of Chris's theory. It took me much too long to get around to playing PS:T and in retrospect the vibe I got from the cover was the major reason. In fact by the time the Codex convinced me to play it, it was out of print. I was only able to buy it when it became available on GoG.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm an anecdotal data point in favour of Chris's theory. It took me much too long to get around to playing PS:T and in retrospect the vibe I got from the cover was the major reason. In fact by the time the Codex convinced me to play it, it was out of print. I was only able to buy it when it became available on GoG.

Hmm, seconded. I think I waited five or six days before playing PS:T after getting it for Christmas in ‘99, mostly because of the box. That may not sound like very long, but I played Fallout, Fallout 2 and Baldur’s Gate immediately.
 

Spectacle

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Messages
8,363
What is this game? Who made it? What's it about? You have to read the fine print to even figure out who developed and published it, let alone that it is a DnD game. And WTF is a forgotten realm? Awful!

I wouldn't say it's my favourite cover ever, but back then Forgotten Realms was pretty well known, almost synonymous with D&D in many eyes (even if it wasn't the most interesting D&D setting). Not sure why they didn't add a larger D&D mention, but I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC was involved in that decision, over the years they (and TSR before them) seemed to emphasise the FR brand over the D&D brand more and more, perhaps the marketing types thought D&D still had a few negative associations from the crap that went down in the 80s. That might be interesting to read up on, actually. Even looking back at my FR books from the late 80s it seemed clear what they wanted to emphasise, although at least those still had a more visible AD&D tag for anyone with your preferences

xuxvabPM_o.jpg
Keep in mind that back then every game store would have a huge shelf of AD&D products, so anyone looking at that cover already knows it's an AD&D book because he's standing in the AD&D section. So the primary marketing concern behind the cover would be to make it easily noticeable for anyone in the market for a new Forgotten Realms supplement.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,660
I heard a rumor sometime ago that you guys originally wanted the Courier in New Vegas to begin the game without a Vault Suit or Pipboy, but that Bethesda forced you guys to add those elements because they are recognizable Fallout things. Is there any truth to this?
You were always going to be given a pipboy because they had no time to redo the UI (and as Avellone will tell you from his kotor 2 experience, redoing the UI is a mistake).
 

Bohr

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
1,878
If anyone is afraid that MCA burned up bridges in the industry, they would welcome him in Blizzard

Ok, that may keep the (wolves) from the door, but what about prestigious developers? Would you take him at One Bit Studio, for example?
 

Parsifarka

Arcane
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
1,022
Location
Potato field
Why would you do that in public instead of sending a PM? Ridiculous. Surely not the kind of people you want to work with -and a bloody MOBA, oh God.
Seriously, it sounds like an insult rather than a kind offer.
 

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