KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Mustawd]

agris was right after all.

Right about?

9/11. We didn't listen.

 

[agris]

Hey UnstableVoltage

Can you speak as to why a classless system isn't under consideration for PP? I understand the comfort afforded to players by picking a class, but why not let players have access to pre-bundled packages of skills that define a 'class', while letting us (the player) have the option to assemble our own collection of skills and skill-focuses which we can then save as custom classes. Much like the saved gear loadouts of Xenonauts, but applied to skills. Such a solution would both keep the casual "let me pick from A-B-C-D" crowd happy, while enabling more play options/combinations that arise from a classless system.

It's understood not everything regarding mechanics in PP is set in stone, but please let us know your thinking. I think that a classless system would be a huge boon to PP in a certain crowd, and do no harm to it among others (provided the basic 'classic' classes skill packages were available to pick at the start).

User-defined loadouts aren't for the lazy, it's good design. Xenonauts did this, and I hope PP does as well.

I really wish PP were a class-less game actually, where there are 'loadouts' of skills that encompass the designers' vision of the classes already planned, but the player was able to make and save new class 'loadouts' as well.

 

[Shog-goth]

Since there are still all these doubts at this point of development (and it should not) it wouldn't be much more simpler take the X-COM road all the way and, finally, trash all the XCOM garbage like classes and, uhm, everything else?

 

[xmd1997]

Fuck, most people want classes.

At this point though I would rather have them have a clear vision about their game instead of asking "us".

They actually aren't asking "US" that's just a forum discussion thread started by someone attempting to convince the devs to go to a classless system, guess he was hoping that there would be overwhelming support on the vote against a class system. To be honest I don't see why classes are that bad. Silent Storm got it right. A Sniper could still use a heavy weapon he just wouldn't be as proficient with it compared to someone who had the stats for it.
Also they hinted several times on discord that their class system won't work the way most people think or worrying about.

 

[Mustawd]

To be honest I don't see why classes are that bad.

It's not that classes are bad per se. It's that along with that comes retarded shit like a sniper can't pick up a shotgun and shoot it. Or a heavy weapons guy cant pickup a sniper and shoot it. It's a fucking weapon. Aim and pew pew it. Doesn't mean that person will be good at it, but at least they should be able to pick it up and do something with it.

Some classes like psych soldiers would make sense to have abilities gated behind a class. But tbh, not being able to fire weapons across classes seems super tarded, and it reeks of No Fun Allowed.

What if I want to equip all my guys with rocket launchers for the fun of it?

 

[xmd1997]

To be honest I don't see why classes are that bad.

It's not that classes are bad per se. It's that along with that comes retarded shit like a sniper can't pick up a shotgun and shoot it. Or a heavy weapons guy cant pickup a sniper and shoot it. It's a fucking weapon. Aim and pew pew it. Doesn't mean that person will be good at it, but at least they should be able to pick it up and do something with it.

Some classes like psych soldiers would make sense to have abilities gated behind a class. But tbh, not being able to fire weapons across classes seems super tarded, and it reeks of No Fun Allowed.

What if I want to equip all my guys with rocket launchers for the fun of it?

I definitely understand that. I liked NuXcom and all but Firaxis went too far in oversimplifying and streamlining a lot of deep ass shit compared to the original XCOM. The current backer build of Phoenix Point, however, allows soldiers to carry each other's weapons though regardless of their class, so this at least makes me hopeful that snapshot games know what they're doing.

 

[udm]

I did my part and voted no classes.

 

[Alienman]

Fuck, most people want classes.

At this point though I would rather have them have a clear vision about their game instead of asking "us".

They actually aren't asking "US" that's just a forum discussion thread started by someone attempting to convince the devs to go to a classless system, guess he was hoping that there would be overwhelming support on the vote against a class system. To be honest I don't see why classes are that bad. Silent Storm got it right. A Sniper could still use a heavy weapon he just wouldn't be as proficient with it compared to someone who had the stats for it.
Also they hinted several times on discord that their class system won't work the way most people think or worrying about.

Ah, okay, I thought it was a developer asking.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

What if I want to equip all my guys with rocket launchers for the fun of it?

You'd have a blast all right.

 

[HansDampf]

They actually aren't asking "US" that's just a forum discussion thread started by someone attempting to convince the devs to go to a classless system

We got confused by Gollop himself tweeting it and asking the community to vote as if it was still an open debate in development.

 

[PanteraNera]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/phoenix-point/phoenix-point-ai

How Phoenix Point’s AI assembles an army designed to kill you specifically

Due to its successful crowdfunding campaign, Phoenix Point’s first pre-alpha build has now been released to backers, giving them a taste of what’s to come. Now that footage of gameplay is making the rounds, there’s a host of new information to dissect and aliens to fawn over.

I spoke with the head of Snapshot Games and all-around game design legend Julian Gollop about how Phoenix Point is progressing, the process of designing some of the larger monsters, and how the studio plans to balance game difficulty.

“We have used that backer build to test a couple of key concepts in the game,” Gollop says. “The main one is the first-person system and body part targeting.”

The backer build of Phoenix Point boasts an active first-person aiming system that allows soldiers to target specific limbs on enemies. Damaged limbs can slow enemy movement, afflict the ‘bleeding’ status effect, or, in the case of one particular alien, cause them to drop their shield, opening them up to frontal assaults.

“The general principle behind all the creatures in Phoenix Point is that they are modular,” Gollop elaborates. “This is used to model an evolutionary process in the game itself where they will deploy random mutations.” These mutations serve as modifiers that change the way aliens behave and attack your squad. Mutations that do well against your soldiers will live on while ineffective mutations will die off never to be used again, which lends a sense of ownership to each game.

This type of variance is a common thread throughout Phoenix Point and even extends to the game’s boss monsters. In the backer build, you encounter an enormous crab-like monster packed to the brim with health points and armour. Gollop wouldn’t say how many boss monsters will be present in the final build, but he did say that they’re the most complex creatures in the game.

“Each monster generally follows a certain theme,” he explains. The Crab Queen - whose actual name is still being finalised - is themed around spawning enemies and generating the dangerous mist that permeates much of Phoenix Point’s story. In addition, the bosses are just as modular as any other enemy in the game. “For the Crab Queen archetype, there are a possible 243 unique variants alone,” Gollop says. “You most certainly will not encounter every possible variation of the Queen in the game.”

One of the mechanics that separates Phoenix Point from the tactical turn-based pack is the idea of persistence. “[The monsters] will try to preserve themselves,” Gollop says of the Crab Queen. “If the monster is taking losses, if her minions are being wiped out, she will retreat. If the monster escapes it will live to fight another day.” This means that you can encounter the same monster more than once.

But you don’t necessarily need to wait for the fight to come to you. “You have the option to locate her lair and send a squad in there to assassinate her and take out the lair altogether,” Gollop says. This benefits the havens in the area, which are hubs that you can defend and recover from alien attack.

These havens often offer rewards should you rescue them, and also introduce many of the NPC factions within the world of Phoenix Point. “Each of the main human factions in the game has their own technology and their own tech tree and they’re doing their own research and trying to build their own resources,” Gollop says of the havens. “Each of those factions has something very valuable. In fact, the most valuable thing they have is a potential solution to the alien threat.” In other words, it will behoove you to nurture your relationships with each faction as they fight off the alien menace.

When it comes to difficulty, Phoenix Point utilises a point-based system not unlike those found in tabletop miniatures games. “Every character in the game has a rating that we are calling ‘deployment points’ at the moment,” Gollop explains. These ratings are derived from every modular body part and mutation present on the character. Depending on the difficulty setting, the enemy squad will be allocated a certain number of deployment points. “If you’ve got some particularly powerful mutations deployed in the battle then there won’t be so many [enemies],” he continues, “but if they’re relatively low-cost there might be more of them.”

One final bit of information Gollop revealed is the ability for you to name the alien enemies in the game. He used the Crab-Man archetype as an example. “A Crab-Man’s default name might be ‘Mutation #1721 or something, But then you can rename it ‘Brawler’ or ‘Slicer’ or ‘Shooter’ or ‘Tank’ or whatever.” The hope is that this makes it easier for the you to identify which particular mutation you’re working against. But it also lends a small personal touch to each game that gives meaning to the identifiers.

The backer build of Phoenix Point was released on April 30 while the full release was recently delayed until June 2019.

 

[Shog-goth]

It's so hard to update the screenshots for the press? Many of them are just mockups from the Fig campaign but nonetheless shown in every single article.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

It's so hard to update the screenshots for the press? Many of them are just mockups from the Fig campaign but nonetheless shown in every single article.

They all have access to a press kit with up-to-date stills, but it's easier to Google, apparently.

 

[Galdred]

A flexible soldier progression sound nice, but I don't think the skills should be randomised at all.

Actually, I think Blood Bowl did randomized skills well:
A set of skills that would always be available on level up for a given "class", and skills/Stat upgrade that would only be accessible on a random roll. It worked because most players could be developed well without getting a random pick ever, so you always had reasonable options, but random rolls allowed you to experiment with unique builds.

 

[luinthoron]

It's so hard to update the screenshots for the press? Many of them are just mockups from the Fig campaign but nonetheless shown in every single article.

They all have access to a press kit with up-to-date stills, but it's easier to Google, apparently.

I'm not sure they're bothering to do even that much, they're just using the same images they've already used for every article since the start of the campaign.

 

[Grotesque]

I am all up for soldiers receiving random skills.
Or semi-random should I say where the most powerful skills would have a lower percentage to be unlocked/awarded.

That will prevent "hot-knife through butter" builds and when the inevitable stellar skill synergy occurs in one soldier, that will make that soldier truly valuable.

The key is lots of skills for making soldiers truly unique

 

[xmd1997]

They actually aren't asking "US" that's just a forum discussion thread started by someone attempting to convince the devs to go to a classless system

We got confused by Gollop himself tweeting it and asking the community to vote as if it was still an open debate in development.

Apparently according to their writer on discord they've created something that supposed to strike a nice balance between the two. Thats why im going with a "Wait and see" approach before judging the game and see how it develops.

"What we have is not like anything I've previously played or heard people talk about. Its a really nice balance."
-Allen Stroud, Phoenix Point Discord, Yesterday at 10:25 AM

 

[Mustawd]

What if I want to equip all my guys with rocket launchers for the fun of it?

You'd have a blast all right.

Lol. Cheeky bastard.

 

[PanteraNera]

As a side note, Allen Stoud also started playing Silent Storm for research reason (quiet some people recommended it on discord).

Again, the recurring theme here is to little information.

I as well am curious about their class system, as the little bits we heard about it sound interesting.

 

[Latelistener]

As a side note, Allen Stoud also started playing Silent Storm for research reason (quiet some people recommended it on discord).

While at it he can also try E5 and 7.62.

 

[mwnn85]

I get quite a decent impression from the backer build with just a few small niggles.

On the plus side it's not a complete technical trainwreck like BattleTech.
The environment is highly destructible; the Queen in particular just plows through structures and any high ground. Units on sub-levels seemed safe.
Of course if you blow off all her legs she's completely inert and bleeds to death

Hopefully the player will be able to field more than 4 units in a battle.
6-8 soldiers is what I'd expect at a minimum i.e. 4 rifles, 2 snipers, 2 heavies or some other combination.
That's the kind of setup you'd typically use in the original games and you weren't restricted by fixed unit classes.

I think having to scavenge for basic gun clips mid-battle is a bit stupid personally.
I don't have an issue with gun reloading.
Can't say I ever ran out of ammo in the original games (rifle/jet harpoon/laser rifle) or even when using the end-game plasma guns.
On the plus side it does limit the player to taking only the most probable shots but 10 attacks or so won't seem like much if all the later enemies end up being armoured.
No issue with limiting the usage of special attacks like the rocket.

Taking down the Queen is virtually dependant on rockets and grenades doing damage due to armour.
Hopefully this won't present a problem in the finished game else battles won't last very long if you lose key units which can strip armour.
As it stands now failing to damage the Queen's legs results in a rather silly Benny Hill style chase around the map.

 

[ArchAngel]

I get quite a decent impression from the backer build with just a few small niggles.

On the plus side it's not a complete technical trainwreck like BattleTech.
The environment is highly destructible; the Queen in particular just plows through structures and any high ground. Units on sub-levels seemed safe.
Of course if you blow off all her legs she's completely inert and bleeds to death

Hopefully the player will be able to field more than 4 units in a battle.
6-8 soldiers is what I'd expect at a minimum i.e. 4 rifles, 2 snipers, 2 heavies or some other combination.
That's the kind of setup you'd typically use in the original games and you weren't restricted by fixed unit classes.

I think having to scavenge for basic gun clips mid-battle is a bit stupid personally.
I don't have an issue with gun reloading.
Can't say I ever ran out of ammo in the original games (rifle/jet harpoon/laser rifle) or even when using the end-game plasma guns.
On the plus side it does limit the player to taking only the most probable shots but 10 attacks or so won't seem like much if all the later enemies end up being armoured.
No issue with limiting the usage of special attacks like the rocket.

Taking down the Queen is virtually dependant on rockets and grenades doing damage due to armour.
Hopefully this won't present a problem in the finished game else battles won't last very long if you lose key units which can strip armour.
As it stands now failing to damage the Queen's legs results in a rather silly Benny Hill style chase around the map.

In full game you will be bringing all ammo with you from your base. Ammo crates will probably exists in some missions in some form.

Being dependant on armor piercing weapons also existed in 1994 UFO. Getting armored aliens in first terror mission was a scenario from hell. Fighting Mutons without heavy plasma was also not something you wanted to do. Also even with having classes from what I understood you can use weapons with all classes but you will probably have lesser hit chance and no access to some special attacks.

 

[PanteraNera]

There was just an interesting chat on discord involving AllenStroud (Lead Writer and he designed the willpower system) and William Cross (QA Tester) about abilities, cool-downs and willpower.

Spoiler

hfok - heute um 09:16 Uhr
@AllenStroud was there any lore related reason why jetpack and medkit requires will to use? I can understand the medkit for being "Oh no, we're already wounded to a point where we need to use the limited med kit" but jetpack?
William Cross - heute um 09:20 Uhr
I think we might change the resource system's name. "Will" definitely sounds weird when you start applying it to certain abilities. Technically everyone uses up willpower on a daily basis for the most minor of things and every micro and macro decision can be attributed to a loss of willpower. But I think we'll try out something like concentration or something similar instead.
hfok - heute um 09:21 Uhr
Focus?
but that still make weird sense
I understand what you guys trying to make that system
as a while back Allen answered a question to it
coming up with a good name is hard tho
momentum... ?
-_-
William Cross - heute um 09:24 Uhr
yeah, there's a few things we can try
keep in mind the resource system itself isn't final so we might end up remaking it
I personally am a fan of resourceless systems. Prefer longer cooldowns instead but that might change up the current gameplay dynamic.
We'll see what we'll do and how it will change as we continue development.
hfok - heute um 09:25 Uhr
hm, that's interesting, will is one aspect I expect it wouldn't change much.
The resources system was in place for against the cooldown system in the first place, I am curious to why do you beleive cooldown system in superior compare to a resource system? Also, will a hybrid system have a better middle ground for the two?
William Cross - heute um 09:35 Uhr
I've personally dabbled designing resource systems and more often than not, they just feel meaningless. You either work to make them not as impactful or you add a ton of stuff to mitigate it. Blizzard seem to be handling it generally well with Diablo 3 and Heroes of the Storm, but even then you can see some of those problems.
That said, I am completely aware that cooldown systems are very punishing in turn based tactics games. So we will most likely not go with it. We might have a few abilities that are cooldown only, but we'll see.
Bloodline Champions and Battlerite are one of my favorite games and they have perhaps the best cooldown-based systems I've seen. As a result every ability is very impactful and if you waste your cooldowns you're basically powerless. But it's a completely different genre from XCOM and the like. Invisible Inc. had some nice cooldown based abilities and they worked really well. It was really tense using up your strongest abilities and waiting for them to come back.
hfok - heute um 09:41 Uhr
To some extent
the backer's rocket launcher is a cooldown system
without will
William Cross - heute um 09:43 Uhr
yeah, we gotta keep in mind we also have an ammo system and right now it's very scarce (I personally like it this way but know a lot of people have a problem with it)
hfok - heute um 09:44 Uhr
and with what you said, I was thinking, a cooldown system that uses will to bypass. This gives the feeling of what allen mentioned in his reply, sometimes, human will just give that little extra bit to push themselves over to do something one normally couldn't do it. My idea is, have a cooldown, maybe even start the mission with those ability on cooldown. You can always use willpower to bypass that cooldown and use it. But the remiaining cooldown will be stack ontop of what that skills cooldown should be.
A system like this you could have your "free" ability and at the same time, keep the will (even its name) system in place
and if you stack it too many time, you'd left vlunable, as you will need to recover will and if not, you have a LONG cd
to wait
just a thought
William Cross - heute um 09:46 Uhr
There's a game in development right now. It's called Warhammer 40k Mechanicus
they also have something like a willpoint system and they can use it in a similar way to our Exertion mechanic. Wanna run to a far away spot this turn? Just use more of your "will points".
hfok - heute um 09:49 Uhr
I do like exertion as an ability
it is different from run and gun from xcom but makes the assult a lot more versitile too
AllenStroud - heute um 09:58 Uhr
William Cross I think you're thinking too literally about this.
Will points are a fuzzy logic system. Any word you use will be a problem in a certain context.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:01 Uhr
I gave a pretty clear answer of my thinking here - https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoi...point_of_will_points_why_not_use_time/dxitmsp
There is a need for fuzzy logic on this. If you try to rationalise the detail, it doesn't work, because the stat is an abstraction, but, the name of the abstraction is very important. 'Focus' is a neutral word, like 'attack', neither are particularly evocative. If the name changes it has to have the right connotations. The Lovecraftian term used in most versions of the Cthulhu RPG is 'sanity' and the stat was used to represent the gradual unravelling of a person as they witnessed events of eldritch horror. Now, we can't use that. term as its connotations are pretty offensive, but the theme generated by the use of this term and its fuzzy logic application are exactly what Phoenix Point needs to do to maintain a Lovecraftian sensibility.
Our application of will points is different to Cthulhu's sanity, but the connection is important.
William Cross - heute um 10:08 Uhr
It's definitely an important connection, yeah.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:09 Uhr
The application of will points to special actions is interesting though. That's an interpretation by the rest of the team and I think its great.
I am not a fan of cooldowns. They take the direct power away from the player for a while. Having a stack of points to spend on abilities and knowing there's a consequence to using them up evokes a little fear in the mind. It makes you think about the moment when you don't have any will points.
How bad a situation will you be in then? :wink:
Cooldowns do the same to a point, but the one shot nature is not so evocative. That said, I think its a great mechanic for tech.
William Cross - heute um 10:11 Uhr
Yeah, we might want to explore it for tech.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:14 Uhr
The surface rationalisation for tech is pretty good. Sure, you might say "Why did they build a crappy jet pack which only works once before it heats up too much and you have to spend twice as long waiting for it to cool down?" but that's about finding a balance that alleviates the frustrated question.
hfok - heute um 10:15 Uhr
what about motivation/determination?
or inspiration?
or are these too positive
AllenStroud - heute um 10:15 Uhr
Of course, the flip side of that balance is how effective the tech is, which is the option design, development and testing have to create the optimal device that gives the player a boost without compromising the scenario.
@hfok Yep, all too positive. You answered your own question.
"Will" also has legacy in its application in RPGs and games. Sure, the interpretations have been slightly different, but they add to the evocative sense. In terms of an explanation, we're back to 1970s French academics after that, which I don't want to bore anyone with. :smile:
madxav - heute um 10:17 Uhr
I personally like the will point system. The one thing I don't quite like is the recover ability for recovering will points. I personally feel it would be better if units would recover will points just by killing enemies and completing objectives.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:18 Uhr
"Trauma" was considered, but the connotations are also problematic.
@madxav That needs to be balanced to maintain the threat of the scenario. Sure, killing an enemy might be an achievement in one context, but it isn't when you're seeing four more and being overrun.
hfok - heute um 10:19 Uhr
mentality ...?
sigh -_- there really isn't a nice word to replace it
will, to me, is just slightly misleading at the moment, because of what other stuff is using this resources as well
and unlike traditional rpg, we can't just call it mana or something that simply just mean resources for the mind and soul -_-
lol
AllenStroud - heute um 10:21 Uhr
@hfok None of those terms have the correct connotations. Some are bland, some are offensive in given contexts. With respect, you're essentially re-questioning a decision that was made two years ago.
madxav - heute um 10:22 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, but looking at it more from a gameplay perspective that would promote aggressive actions, an efficient use of the will points since the number of enemies is not infinite, and when being swarmed it would provide a constant income of will points for being able to deal with the threat. Similar to DOOM being rewarded with HP and Armor when executing enemies.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:23 Uhr
This is one of the reasons why design and development is hard. We took a long time over this. I'm happy to explain the thinking here, but re-hashing it for everyone, everytime will be exhausting.
hfok - heute um 10:23 Uhr
put it up, we can make every time someone ask, we type soemthing like !will
and then the bot can tell it
lol
just like !help
!help
madxav - heute um 10:24 Uhr
@hfok I believe Will points is the most appropriate term. Other similar ones feel... off...
hfok - heute um 10:24 Uhr
it is
AllenStroud - heute um 10:24 Uhr
@madxav Partially, but then you're thinking from the perspective of a tactical scenario, not the perspective of the overall campaign. Would you like me to explain?
@hfok that's up to UnstableVoltage
hfok - heute um 10:25 Uhr
it is just hard to find a better suit than will, but will is a tiny bit off, it grasp the feeling, but as @AllenStroud said, in other sense it doesn't
and my english just stopping me from getting a better word, even in my native tounge, i just can't come up with a better word
AllenStroud - heute um 10:25 Uhr
@hfok Fuzzy logic, like I said. I learned my lesson on this twenty years ago. Remember THAC0... :smile:
madxav - heute um 10:26 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, my point is only looking at it from a tactical scenario. A system like that wouldn't fit from a strategical scenario?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:27 Uhr
@madxav Okay, so consider that will points are a general representation of your soldier's current mental fortitude and that they can be gained and lost in a scenario, but that their level also affects the soldier's recovery and exhaustion after a scennario.
hfok - heute um 10:27 Uhr
yeah, I truely hope, you'd type the thought process out, and then, in the game, during tutorial probably, have a box comes up and just have your definition of "will" explaining what it is and what it is trying to represent
AllenStroud - heute um 10:28 Uhr
So, when you complete a mission, you have soldiers with lowish will point levels. These will take time to return. There may even be some residual (permanent) loss owing to specific trauma.
This means as a player you are required to manage your roster. Your best troops will accumulate issues if you continually pitch them into evvery battle.
However, what this roster management also does is it spreads around the positive, battle hardened, experience of your group, meaning that in certain missions, you'll have a large (16) effective fighting force to pull out.
madxav - heute um 10:30 Uhr
@AllenStroud Hmmm... I see where you are going, but that would make a recovery ability even worse. since before taking the last enemy everyone would just recover all their units. I believe it would be more fitting to calculate exhaustion with the total of will points used in a mission. That way longer missions that required more use of will points would reflect in the strategical layer.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:31 Uhr
@madxav That's a really good point.
hfok - heute um 10:31 Uhr
yeah, I was thinking about that too
but that'd end up a little bit like the fatigue system in LongWar (NuCom mod)
AllenStroud - heute um 10:32 Uhr
It does depend on what the recovery options are in the game and mantaining a sense of rationing is important.
Of course, it is also a very easy way to set the difficulty level of the game. More will point recovery makes scenarios easier.
madxav - heute um 10:33 Uhr
@AllenStroud agreed
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:33 Uhr
I like the will point system in the abstract.
Expending a WP for extra TUs to get out of tight scrapes looks great.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:35 Uhr
Also, bear in mind we're looking at ways in which soldiers inform you about their status. Their will point state is something that can be linked to narrative and building of individual character.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:35 Uhr
I still don't like will-powered jetpacks, though.
The character building thing is a good point.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:35 Uhr
If you're characters were at high will points levels throughout the scenario, having them continually inform you that they are "Totally awesome" undermines the mood.
TheNiTrex - heute um 10:36 Uhr
I mean, it probably requires a bit of will to take control of the jetpack
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:36 Uhr
I've heard that before.
Sure, some people might be nervous about using the jetpack.
But others would be exhilarated by it.
madxav - heute um 10:37 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, but adrenaline could evoke that kind of feeling, and soldiers feel the exhaustion once the mission is over.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:37 Uhr
Because HELL YEAH JETPACK!
And others may well have no reaction to using the jetpack at all, so single-minded is their focus on the mission.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:38 Uhr
@madxav You're getting too specific, but I do acknowledge the point.
madxav - heute um 10:40 Uhr
@AllenStroud Couldn't they be called Adrenaline Points for the tactical layer?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:41 Uhr
What I think is worth point out is that we have discussed a fair bit of this already internally . As I mentioned to @hfok , you can probably see why I get a bit tired when people open up these discussions every few days/weeks on the forums and reddit. The ratiionalisation for most of the mechanics has already been done.
madxav - heute um 10:41 Uhr
I know, it must be very fatiguing discussing this with the team and then again in social media.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:41 Uhr
@madxav If you'd like a detailed discussion on the chemical effect of different stimulant materials on human biology every few weeks, sure... :smile:
@madxav The point you made about total will point spend in a mission though is really nice.
JohnnyPhate - heute um 10:42 Uhr
Yeah, WTF is wrong with you people!? You are keeping @AllenStroud from writing another briefing.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:42 Uhr
lol @JohnnyPhate That is actually true today.
I do totally understand the reason people want to discuss and evaluate the different game elements. But there does need to be some acceptance that we may have thought of a few things which aren't in the material currently released in the backer build.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:47 Uhr
I'm fine with WPs being called Will Points.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:48 Uhr
@madxav Also, just for completeness sake, 'adrenalin points' or 'adrenalin' doesn't have the correct connotations to connect with the Cthulhu representation I mentioned earlier. Also, lets think about the fact that I'm now spending time shooting down individual suggestions for a replacement of the term 'will points' :smile: I think that makes my point about this in a nice microcosm.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:49 Uhr
It's an abstraction of stuff like adrenaline, second wind, mental fortitude etc
AllenStroud - heute um 10:49 Uhr
As I said, on reddit @Mechasaurian - "heart and soul" :smile:
JohnnyPhate - heute um 10:52 Uhr
@AllenStroud Don'tSpamOverwatch points?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:52 Uhr
:smile:
TheNiTrex - heute um 10:55 Uhr
Better than mission timers at least, lol
hfok - heute um 10:59 Uhr
@AllenStroud thanks for that, as always. It was really educational and next time I could probably answer them back, if UV doesn't add as a bot command
lol
madxav - heute um 10:59 Uhr
@AllenStroud Yes, that was just a random thought
hfok - heute um 11:01 Uhr
What do you guys think of overwatch+reocvery crawling?
it's essentially the same as NuCom:EU/EW overwatch crawling, but add in recovery
I think the current build stop this by restircting the ammo (which I like)
but I am worried in the real build, where u can bring in much more ammo to start off, this can be abuse just like how it was back in EU/EW
TheNiTrex - heute um 11:03 Uhr
You'll probably still have fairly limited ammo, shouldn't be much of a problem
madxav - heute um 11:05 Uhr
@AllenStroud Yes, thanks for taking the time of chatting with us. It was very informative.
AllenStroud - heute um 11:06 Uhr
No worries. Happy to. You folks let me type. :smile:

In recent weeks there was nothing new to post about, no new screen shots, nor new info. That is the main reason I was not very active itt.

Here is also a (mock-up) screen shot posted by UnstableVoltage

 

[J_C]

There was just an interesting chat on discord involving AllenStroud (Lead Writer and he designed the willpower system) and William Cross (QA Tester) about abilities, cool-downs and willpower.

Spoiler

hfok - heute um 09:16 Uhr
@AllenStroud was there any lore related reason why jetpack and medkit requires will to use? I can understand the medkit for being "Oh no, we're already wounded to a point where we need to use the limited med kit" but jetpack?
William Cross - heute um 09:20 Uhr
I think we might change the resource system's name. "Will" definitely sounds weird when you start applying it to certain abilities. Technically everyone uses up willpower on a daily basis for the most minor of things and every micro and macro decision can be attributed to a loss of willpower. But I think we'll try out something like concentration or something similar instead.
hfok - heute um 09:21 Uhr
Focus?
but that still make weird sense
I understand what you guys trying to make that system
as a while back Allen answered a question to it
coming up with a good name is hard tho
momentum... ?
-_-
William Cross - heute um 09:24 Uhr
yeah, there's a few things we can try
keep in mind the resource system itself isn't final so we might end up remaking it
I personally am a fan of resourceless systems. Prefer longer cooldowns instead but that might change up the current gameplay dynamic.
We'll see what we'll do and how it will change as we continue development.
hfok - heute um 09:25 Uhr
hm, that's interesting, will is one aspect I expect it wouldn't change much.
The resources system was in place for against the cooldown system in the first place, I am curious to why do you beleive cooldown system in superior compare to a resource system? Also, will a hybrid system have a better middle ground for the two?
William Cross - heute um 09:35 Uhr
I've personally dabbled designing resource systems and more often than not, they just feel meaningless. You either work to make them not as impactful or you add a ton of stuff to mitigate it. Blizzard seem to be handling it generally well with Diablo 3 and Heroes of the Storm, but even then you can see some of those problems.
That said, I am completely aware that cooldown systems are very punishing in turn based tactics games. So we will most likely not go with it. We might have a few abilities that are cooldown only, but we'll see.
Bloodline Champions and Battlerite are one of my favorite games and they have perhaps the best cooldown-based systems I've seen. As a result every ability is very impactful and if you waste your cooldowns you're basically powerless. But it's a completely different genre from XCOM and the like. Invisible Inc. had some nice cooldown based abilities and they worked really well. It was really tense using up your strongest abilities and waiting for them to come back.
hfok - heute um 09:41 Uhr
To some extent
the backer's rocket launcher is a cooldown system
without will
William Cross - heute um 09:43 Uhr
yeah, we gotta keep in mind we also have an ammo system and right now it's very scarce (I personally like it this way but know a lot of people have a problem with it)
hfok - heute um 09:44 Uhr
and with what you said, I was thinking, a cooldown system that uses will to bypass. This gives the feeling of what allen mentioned in his reply, sometimes, human will just give that little extra bit to push themselves over to do something one normally couldn't do it. My idea is, have a cooldown, maybe even start the mission with those ability on cooldown. You can always use willpower to bypass that cooldown and use it. But the remiaining cooldown will be stack ontop of what that skills cooldown should be.
A system like this you could have your "free" ability and at the same time, keep the will (even its name) system in place
and if you stack it too many time, you'd left vlunable, as you will need to recover will and if not, you have a LONG cd
to wait
just a thought
William Cross - heute um 09:46 Uhr
There's a game in development right now. It's called Warhammer 40k Mechanicus
they also have something like a willpoint system and they can use it in a similar way to our Exertion mechanic. Wanna run to a far away spot this turn? Just use more of your "will points".
hfok - heute um 09:49 Uhr
I do like exertion as an ability
it is different from run and gun from xcom but makes the assult a lot more versitile too
AllenStroud - heute um 09:58 Uhr
William Cross I think you're thinking too literally about this.
Will points are a fuzzy logic system. Any word you use will be a problem in a certain context.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:01 Uhr
I gave a pretty clear answer of my thinking here - https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoi...point_of_will_points_why_not_use_time/dxitmsp
There is a need for fuzzy logic on this. If you try to rationalise the detail, it doesn't work, because the stat is an abstraction, but, the name of the abstraction is very important. 'Focus' is a neutral word, like 'attack', neither are particularly evocative. If the name changes it has to have the right connotations. The Lovecraftian term used in most versions of the Cthulhu RPG is 'sanity' and the stat was used to represent the gradual unravelling of a person as they witnessed events of eldritch horror. Now, we can't use that. term as its connotations are pretty offensive, but the theme generated by the use of this term and its fuzzy logic application are exactly what Phoenix Point needs to do to maintain a Lovecraftian sensibility.
Our application of will points is different to Cthulhu's sanity, but the connection is important.
William Cross - heute um 10:08 Uhr
It's definitely an important connection, yeah.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:09 Uhr
The application of will points to special actions is interesting though. That's an interpretation by the rest of the team and I think its great.
I am not a fan of cooldowns. They take the direct power away from the player for a while. Having a stack of points to spend on abilities and knowing there's a consequence to using them up evokes a little fear in the mind. It makes you think about the moment when you don't have any will points.
How bad a situation will you be in then? :wink:
Cooldowns do the same to a point, but the one shot nature is not so evocative. That said, I think its a great mechanic for tech.
William Cross - heute um 10:11 Uhr
Yeah, we might want to explore it for tech.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:14 Uhr
The surface rationalisation for tech is pretty good. Sure, you might say "Why did they build a crappy jet pack which only works once before it heats up too much and you have to spend twice as long waiting for it to cool down?" but that's about finding a balance that alleviates the frustrated question.
hfok - heute um 10:15 Uhr
what about motivation/determination?
or inspiration?
or are these too positive
AllenStroud - heute um 10:15 Uhr
Of course, the flip side of that balance is how effective the tech is, which is the option design, development and testing have to create the optimal device that gives the player a boost without compromising the scenario.
@hfok Yep, all too positive. You answered your own question.
"Will" also has legacy in its application in RPGs and games. Sure, the interpretations have been slightly different, but they add to the evocative sense. In terms of an explanation, we're back to 1970s French academics after that, which I don't want to bore anyone with. :smile:
madxav - heute um 10:17 Uhr
I personally like the will point system. The one thing I don't quite like is the recover ability for recovering will points. I personally feel it would be better if units would recover will points just by killing enemies and completing objectives.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:18 Uhr
"Trauma" was considered, but the connotations are also problematic.
@madxav That needs to be balanced to maintain the threat of the scenario. Sure, killing an enemy might be an achievement in one context, but it isn't when you're seeing four more and being overrun.
hfok - heute um 10:19 Uhr
mentality ...?
sigh -_- there really isn't a nice word to replace it
will, to me, is just slightly misleading at the moment, because of what other stuff is using this resources as well
and unlike traditional rpg, we can't just call it mana or something that simply just mean resources for the mind and soul -_-
lol
AllenStroud - heute um 10:21 Uhr
@hfok None of those terms have the correct connotations. Some are bland, some are offensive in given contexts. With respect, you're essentially re-questioning a decision that was made two years ago.
madxav - heute um 10:22 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, but looking at it more from a gameplay perspective that would promote aggressive actions, an efficient use of the will points since the number of enemies is not infinite, and when being swarmed it would provide a constant income of will points for being able to deal with the threat. Similar to DOOM being rewarded with HP and Armor when executing enemies.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:23 Uhr
This is one of the reasons why design and development is hard. We took a long time over this. I'm happy to explain the thinking here, but re-hashing it for everyone, everytime will be exhausting.
hfok - heute um 10:23 Uhr
put it up, we can make every time someone ask, we type soemthing like !will
and then the bot can tell it
lol
just like !help
!help
madxav - heute um 10:24 Uhr
@hfok I believe Will points is the most appropriate term. Other similar ones feel... off...
hfok - heute um 10:24 Uhr
it is
AllenStroud - heute um 10:24 Uhr
@madxav Partially, but then you're thinking from the perspective of a tactical scenario, not the perspective of the overall campaign. Would you like me to explain?
@hfok that's up to UnstableVoltage
hfok - heute um 10:25 Uhr
it is just hard to find a better suit than will, but will is a tiny bit off, it grasp the feeling, but as @AllenStroud said, in other sense it doesn't
and my english just stopping me from getting a better word, even in my native tounge, i just can't come up with a better word
AllenStroud - heute um 10:25 Uhr
@hfok Fuzzy logic, like I said. I learned my lesson on this twenty years ago. Remember THAC0... :smile:
madxav - heute um 10:26 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, my point is only looking at it from a tactical scenario. A system like that wouldn't fit from a strategical scenario?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:27 Uhr
@madxav Okay, so consider that will points are a general representation of your soldier's current mental fortitude and that they can be gained and lost in a scenario, but that their level also affects the soldier's recovery and exhaustion after a scennario.
hfok - heute um 10:27 Uhr
yeah, I truely hope, you'd type the thought process out, and then, in the game, during tutorial probably, have a box comes up and just have your definition of "will" explaining what it is and what it is trying to represent
AllenStroud - heute um 10:28 Uhr
So, when you complete a mission, you have soldiers with lowish will point levels. These will take time to return. There may even be some residual (permanent) loss owing to specific trauma.
This means as a player you are required to manage your roster. Your best troops will accumulate issues if you continually pitch them into evvery battle.
However, what this roster management also does is it spreads around the positive, battle hardened, experience of your group, meaning that in certain missions, you'll have a large (16) effective fighting force to pull out.
madxav - heute um 10:30 Uhr
@AllenStroud Hmmm... I see where you are going, but that would make a recovery ability even worse. since before taking the last enemy everyone would just recover all their units. I believe it would be more fitting to calculate exhaustion with the total of will points used in a mission. That way longer missions that required more use of will points would reflect in the strategical layer.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:31 Uhr
@madxav That's a really good point.
hfok - heute um 10:31 Uhr
yeah, I was thinking about that too
but that'd end up a little bit like the fatigue system in LongWar (NuCom mod)
AllenStroud - heute um 10:32 Uhr
It does depend on what the recovery options are in the game and mantaining a sense of rationing is important.
Of course, it is also a very easy way to set the difficulty level of the game. More will point recovery makes scenarios easier.
madxav - heute um 10:33 Uhr
@AllenStroud agreed
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:33 Uhr
I like the will point system in the abstract.
Expending a WP for extra TUs to get out of tight scrapes looks great.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:35 Uhr
Also, bear in mind we're looking at ways in which soldiers inform you about their status. Their will point state is something that can be linked to narrative and building of individual character.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:35 Uhr
I still don't like will-powered jetpacks, though.
The character building thing is a good point.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:35 Uhr
If you're characters were at high will points levels throughout the scenario, having them continually inform you that they are "Totally awesome" undermines the mood.
TheNiTrex - heute um 10:36 Uhr
I mean, it probably requires a bit of will to take control of the jetpack
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:36 Uhr
I've heard that before.
Sure, some people might be nervous about using the jetpack.
But others would be exhilarated by it.
madxav - heute um 10:37 Uhr
@AllenStroud Indeed, but adrenaline could evoke that kind of feeling, and soldiers feel the exhaustion once the mission is over.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:37 Uhr
Because HELL YEAH JETPACK!
And others may well have no reaction to using the jetpack at all, so single-minded is their focus on the mission.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:38 Uhr
@madxav You're getting too specific, but I do acknowledge the point.
madxav - heute um 10:40 Uhr
@AllenStroud Couldn't they be called Adrenaline Points for the tactical layer?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:41 Uhr
What I think is worth point out is that we have discussed a fair bit of this already internally . As I mentioned to @hfok , you can probably see why I get a bit tired when people open up these discussions every few days/weeks on the forums and reddit. The ratiionalisation for most of the mechanics has already been done.
madxav - heute um 10:41 Uhr
I know, it must be very fatiguing discussing this with the team and then again in social media.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:41 Uhr
@madxav If you'd like a detailed discussion on the chemical effect of different stimulant materials on human biology every few weeks, sure... :smile:
@madxav The point you made about total will point spend in a mission though is really nice.
JohnnyPhate - heute um 10:42 Uhr
Yeah, WTF is wrong with you people!? You are keeping @AllenStroud from writing another briefing.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:42 Uhr
lol @JohnnyPhate That is actually true today.
I do totally understand the reason people want to discuss and evaluate the different game elements. But there does need to be some acceptance that we may have thought of a few things which aren't in the material currently released in the backer build.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:47 Uhr
I'm fine with WPs being called Will Points.
AllenStroud - heute um 10:48 Uhr
@madxav Also, just for completeness sake, 'adrenalin points' or 'adrenalin' doesn't have the correct connotations to connect with the Cthulhu representation I mentioned earlier. Also, lets think about the fact that I'm now spending time shooting down individual suggestions for a replacement of the term 'will points' :smile: I think that makes my point about this in a nice microcosm.
Mechasaurian - heute um 10:49 Uhr
It's an abstraction of stuff like adrenaline, second wind, mental fortitude etc
AllenStroud - heute um 10:49 Uhr
As I said, on reddit @Mechasaurian - "heart and soul" :smile:
JohnnyPhate - heute um 10:52 Uhr
@AllenStroud Don'tSpamOverwatch points?
AllenStroud - heute um 10:52 Uhr
:smile:
TheNiTrex - heute um 10:55 Uhr
Better than mission timers at least, lol
hfok - heute um 10:59 Uhr
@AllenStroud thanks for that, as always. It was really educational and next time I could probably answer them back, if UV doesn't add as a bot command
lol
madxav - heute um 10:59 Uhr
@AllenStroud Yes, that was just a random thought
hfok - heute um 11:01 Uhr
What do you guys think of overwatch+reocvery crawling?
it's essentially the same as NuCom:EU/EW overwatch crawling, but add in recovery
I think the current build stop this by restircting the ammo (which I like)
but I am worried in the real build, where u can bring in much more ammo to start off, this can be abuse just like how it was back in EU/EW
TheNiTrex - heute um 11:03 Uhr
You'll probably still have fairly limited ammo, shouldn't be much of a problem
madxav - heute um 11:05 Uhr
@AllenStroud Yes, thanks for taking the time of chatting with us. It was very informative.
AllenStroud - heute um 11:06 Uhr
No worries. Happy to. You folks let me type. :smile:

In recent weeks there was nothing new to post about, no new screen shots, nor new info. That is the main reason I was not very active itt.

Here is also a (mock-up) screen shot posted by UnstableVoltage

If you use that dark red font on a dark blue background again, I will hunt you, find you, and rape kill you.

 

[Big Wrangle]

I thought you were talking about the screenshot and was gonna type "It's not even that bad lol," then I opened that Discord convo. I think my eyes are melting.